Is lack of on the road charging stations really the biggest obstacle?

[semipro]

LOL, no EV that I know of has a "welding torch" heat output or anything near the quick heat output of a fully warmed up ICE vehicle.

An unexpected benefit of our Leaf with seat heaters, HP cabin heater, and steering wheel heater is that it warms up more quickly for short commutes when compared to an ICE.
In our ICE vehicle, the 1st half of my wife's 15 min. commute is cold despite the heated leather seats.
Even without preheating, the Leaf feels much warmer, sooner. My wife, who is prone to getting chilled, loves it.

 

[peakbagger]

My Rav 4 Prime reportedly will not "start" below -20 F. The reason is the Lithium battery does not put out adequate power at very low temps and the gas engine does not have a starter so no way to start the engine. I do have a cabin preheat mode that can be remotely activated if I want to pay for Toyota connect Ap fees. Otherwise I need to push a button on my key fob. Its a hybrid but the engine will not start to do the warm up during preheat but a electric heat pump tries its best to warm up the car (good to about 20 F). Anything below that and the engine starts and warms up to supply cabin heat. It also has an electric resistance heat on the bottom of the windshield to aid defogging and keeping the windshield wipers from freezing to the windshield. With a broken ankle last winter I didnt get to use it much in very cold weather so how everything comes together will have to wait until this winter.

The rare Canadian versions have a larger DC to DC converter, a block plug and I think additional battery heating.

I and to a greater extent the Canadian owners see big electric range drops in cold temps. Seat and steering wheel heaters are nice but that in combination with the heat pump all eat a lot of power. I have met folks with Chevy Volts that stick a electric resistant heater into a wall plug and run it on timer to do a prewarm cycle.

 

[begreen]

Yes, range can drop to half and deep cold is not good for lithium batteries. Still, ICE engine cars get poorer mileage and less range in the winter too, especially if they are left idling.



It looks like the newest KIAs and Hyundais include a battery heater on their AWD models.

I have met folks with Chevy Volts that stick a electric resistant heater into a wall plug and run it on timer to do a prewarm cycle.

That's may be because the Volt will switch to the generator to warm up the car when it gets below a user set temp of 15º or 32º.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

So, towing in the winter is really bad, lol. It’ll suck when we can’t fill up at the nearest station because somebody has deemed it unnecessary for 90% of driving.

Think hiring somebody to do work for you is expensive now? Just wait! They push through a 2nd cash for clunkers and it’ll be pure, expensive chaos.

 

[begreen]

Changing software is relatively easy (for a factory). Batteries cells are small and there are lot of them. Think of them as Legos, they can be repacked into a different form factor pretty easily. Obviously, a clean sheet design is better but my guess is the limiting factor how quickly and the economics to retool the factories. The other aspect is if there is shift in chemistry, what rare earth materials suddenly become in big demand?

Yes, these batteries still contain lithium. There is a ton of research happening in this area. Solid-state battery development is progressing. QuantumScape (VW) recently switched from a nickel-based cathode to an iron-based one. The anode is still lithium-based which has its continuing environmental problems of large volume water consumption used for mining. Solid Power (Ford and BMW) uses a silicon anode and a nickel-based cathode. Toyota says that they are on track to deliver their first vehicle with a solid-state battery. It will be a hybrid, maybe a Prius? They have over a thousand patents in this area of battery technology and say they are on track for SSBs showing up in some of their cars by 2025. LG is also working on an SSB with an all-silicon anode.

 

[peakbagger]

Long article about another source of Lithium

A $1.5 billion lithium deposit has been discovered in western Maine, but mining it could be hard

Now partially exposed, the deposit is estimated to have a higher percentage lithium content by weight than any other in the world.

www.mainepublic.org

 

[begreen]

Good article. Thanks for sharing. Maine is not mentioned in the US Geological survey on lithium, probably because they need to exceed 15,000 metric tons. It makes one wonder how many other resources there are in North America yet to be discovered.

 

[SpaceBus]

Long article about another source of Lithium

A $1.5 billion lithium deposit has been discovered in western Maine, but mining it could be hard

Now partially exposed, the deposit is estimated to have a higher percentage lithium content by weight than any other in the world.

www.mainepublic.org

I read that article when it came out. I suspect they are being conservative on the amount of lithium present.

 

[EbS-P]

I read that article when it came out. I suspect they are being conservative on the amount of lithium present.

My Uncle was very active in the Maine geological survey. He said this deposit has been know about for some time. The property is owned by Irving Resources. mostly they deal with forest products but also petroleum. Getting a mining permit through will take time and the odds aren’t great. Time will tell. I would like to think we will have a lithium replacement in the next 5 years…..

 

[peakbagger]

I think you have the lithium deposits confused. Bald Mountain up in Aroostock County is a conventional sulfide deposit with zinc copper silver and other metals identified for decades. Mining it would cause the acid mine drainage issue that Maine has essentially banned. The Plumbago Mountain deposit near Bethel Maine is a long term location of various semiprecious gems, tourmalines, berols, There is a very impressive mineral museum in Bethel Maine. The lithium in the Plumbago Mountain is in large quartz like crystals that are not associated with sulfide deposits. Its very different type of mining, no sulfides, no acid drainage.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think you have the lithium deposits confused. Bald Mountain up in Aroostock County is a conventional sulfide deposit with zinc copper silver and other metals identified for decades. Mining it would cause the acid mine drainage issue that Maine has essentially banned. The Plumbago Mountain deposit near Bethel Maine is a long term location of various semiprecious gems, tourmalines, berols, There is a very impressive mineral museum in Bethel Maine. The lithium in the Plumbago Mountain is in large quartz like crystals that are not associated with sulfide deposits. Its very different type of mining, no sulfides, no acid drainage.

Oof, I do have them mixed up! Either way, lithium will be obsolete before they get a permit to mine the stuff.

 

[peakbagger]

There is firm Wolfden resources that has been trying to develop a similar to the Bald Mountain project in Pickett Mtn northeast of Baxter State Park. And another project in Pembrook Maine. The prior Maine governor who is running again and his supporters actually changed to mining laws in Maine for a short period but they were soon changed back. https://downeast.com/arts-leisure/battle-bald-mountain/ Gem grade minerals extraction has been going on in Western Maine for decades probably over 100 years with no acid mine drainage, but the concern is that any legislation to change the mining law to allow a pegmatite mining would open the door to sulfide mining. For those with their eyes on the relative short term, sulfide mines put a incredible amount of money and jobs into a local economy especially with the incredible demand for the proven reserves of copper that can be extracted relatively easily. The problem is along with the minerals are sulfides and that leads at a minimum to long term acid mine drainage which will trash a watershed. The methods used to separate the minerals from the waste product is also potentially very toxic. The temptation by developers and local politicians is to take the money and run while the mine is active leaving a toxic legacy.

Ultimately there is a huge demand for copper and the transformation to an electric economy is going to need more copper resources. It comes down to what country in the world is willing to host long term waste sites once the mining is over. Canada used to play it loose and arguably is still doing so with Crown lands but Wolden has been selling investors that Maine could be an easier regulatory structure to deal with.

 

[EbS-P]

There is firm Wolfden resources that has been trying to develop a similar to the Bald Mountain project in Pickett Mtn northeast of Baxter State Park. And another project in Pembrook Maine. The prior Maine governor who is running again and his supporters actually changed to mining laws in Maine for a short period but they were soon changed back. https://downeast.com/arts-leisure/battle-bald-mountain/ Gem grade minerals extraction has been going on in Western Maine for decades probably over 100 years with no acid mine drainage, but the concern is that any legislation to change the mining law to allow a pegmatite mining would open the door to sulfide mining. For those with their eyes on the relative short term, sulfide mines put a incredible amount of money and jobs into a local economy especially with the incredible demand for the proven reserves of copper that can be extracted relatively easily. The problem is along with the minerals are sulfides and that leads at a minimum to long term acid mine drainage which will trash a watershed. The methods used to separate the minerals from the waste product is also potentially very toxic. The temptation by developers and local politicians is to take the money and run while the mine is active leaving a toxic legacy.

Ultimately there is a huge demand for copper and the transformation to an electric economy is going to need more copper resources. It comes down to what country in the world is willing to host long term waste sites once the mining is over. Canada used to play it loose and arguably is still doing so with Crown lands but Wolden has been selling investors that Maine could be an easier regulatory structure to deal with.

Your breadth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me!

 

[begreen]

Meanwhile, on the non-lithium front, some interesting progress out of Texas.

Researchers develop alternative to lithium batteries

Lithium-ion batteries are currently the preferred technology to power electric vehicles, but they're too expensive for long-duration grid-scale energy storage systems, and lithium itself is becoming more challenging to access.

techxplore.com

 

[UpStateNY]

i can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between. No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH. Now how do I charge it back up to 100%. There are no fast chargers near my sons house. Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days. This does not work for me. Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed. Until then EV for me will have to wait.

 

[EbS-P]

i can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between. No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH. Now how do I charge it back up to 100%. There are no fast chargers near my sons house. Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days. This does not work for me. Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed. Until then EV for me will have to wait.

But if your son had a level2 charger…….

 

[peakbagger]

Is it part of hosting duties that the host has to supply a charging station and free power for guests?
My guess is in southern NH there are level 3 stations available not that far away.

 

[EbS-P]

Is it part of hosting duties that the host has to supply a charging station and free power for guests?
My guess is in southern NH there are level 3 stations available not that far away.

That’s more economical than the parents supply EVs to all children. I have way to many for that

 

[woodgeek]

i can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between. No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH. Now how do I charge it back up to 100%. There are no fast chargers near my sons house. Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days. This does not work for me. Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed. Until then EV for me will have to wait.

If his breaker box is in his garage, you add a 14-50 outlet next to the box for less than $100 worth of parts, and you plug your portable 30A L2 EVSE (maybe $300) that you got with your EV into that. And can recharge in 10-12 hours, not a problem if you are staying overnight. And give him $15 for the juice.

I have been doing something similar with my Sisters house (250 miles away), but I can recharge on L1 (12A) in <48 hours, which is about how long I usually stay. So that works.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

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Another towing test. I keep watching, hoping it will equal out. Maybe some day it will.

 

[EbS-P]

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Another towing test. I keep watching, hoping it will equal out. Maybe some day it will.

Only when you get 50kwh or larger battery in the trailer. Eventually someone will come out with a 200kwh tow rig. I’ll keep my ICE on the road just to tow. And vacation in.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Hmm, a battery in the trailer. Thats interesting. I hadn't thought of that..
Instead of that, I wonder if a trailer mounted ICE hooked up to a generator could back feed the battery while driving? It'd make that electric truck into a hybrid when the demand was there. It might not take a large engine to significantly extend the range and it could continue charging when you stop to eat./sleep.

 

[EbS-P]

Hmm, a battery in the trailer. Thats interesting. I hadn't thought of that..
Instead of that, I wonder if a trailer mounted ICE hooked up to a generator could back feed the battery while driving? It'd make that electric truck into a hybrid when the demand was there. It might not take a large engine to significantly extend the range and it could continue charging when you stop to eat./sleep.

I think you have brought up one case where more DC fast chargers would be better than one at home. I’ve been contemplating how to do a camping road trip with a large family in an EV and it’s only possible if I pull a trailer. Remote and rural areas do need more chargers.

 

[ABMax24]

Only when you get 50kwh or larger battery in the trailer. Eventually someone will come out with a 200kwh tow rig. I’ll keep my ICE on the road just to tow. And vacation in.

That's gross for both trucks. 0.7mile/kwh for the lightning and 8.9 mpg for the 6.2L Sierra are both unimpressive, and those trailers aren't that big, 6000lbs isn't very heavy for a travel trailer.

 

[EbS-P]

That's gross for both trucks. 0.7mile/kwh for the lightning and 8.9 mpg for the 6.2L Sierra are both unimpressive, and those trailers aren't that big, 6000lbs isn't very heavy for a travel trailer.

I didn’t watch it. I’ve seen a lot TFL videos. Tesla uses watt hours per mile. Ford had to be different, or was it Tesla. Yeah it was Tesla. 1.4 kWh per mile. Search TVL for Model X towing. They pulled a 5000# trailer. Can’t remember what they got. At the end of the day I really hope EVs encourage super light camping trailers. Aerodynamic too. Was it a toy hauler camper? That so American(Canadian too??). Let’s get a big trailer that can hold ALL our stuff to pull our big toys behind our big truck. If North America wasn’t so big I’d downsize my vacation plans and gear but I’m 2200 miles from the Grand Canyon and 2500 miles from Glacier NP. Both and my camping vacation list. Want to RV with an EV look up Alto trailers