Toyota Rav4 Prime - Great Concept Not so great delivery

[SpaceBus]

It may not die out as fast as some think, the subsidy was from the manufacturer, new ev subsidies are being offered by states, and even utilities for car charging at home, I suspect this is just a flat line then there will be another uptick as more ev's become mainstream. Personally, I'm still not buying into ev's yet, to much unknown for me..whats happens when the useful life is up on the battery? Where does one dispose of it and how much will that cost? What are the insurance implications of parking an ev in your homes garage, should there be a battery fire we are being told at the fire dept that we will need approx 8,000 gal of water to cool the battery pack down and also a secure tow yard to literally bury the car and leave it in the ground for a few days to make sure the remaining heat can get dissipated.

The same can be said about regular cars. Besides having a battery pack instead of a tank of explosive liquid, EVs are pretty much the same as ICE cars. Battery EVs are just the new thing and going to get the most media coverage. Also, there are plenty of industries that don't want EVs to take over, so are incentivized to drag them through the mud.

EVs catch on fire at a rate of 25/100,000. Meanwhile 1,530 gas powered cars burned for every 100,000 sold. Both statistically speaking and in raw data EVs are much safer from a fire perspective.

 

[semipro]

Bringing this thread back to life, to post script the potential end of the Prime. Toyota has burned up all their EV credits and unless folks have a binding offer in place (exactly what counts as binding is TBD) those waiting for one are most likely paying full retail with no $7,500 credit. Primes are built in Japan and will not meet the requirements for the new EV credit. They were so popular that some dealers waiting lists were out into 2023. Reportedly with the loss of credits some folks are getting off the order lists but its likely that unless its delivered soon the owner gets no credit. It will be interesting to see the if demand for them remain. They still will get 45 to 50 mile electric range and stil are very fast with a long range but is that worth effectively a $7,500 premium over a Rav 4 hybrid (gets slightly higher highway mileage, not as quick and no plug in)?

I have been real happy with my second one (first one totaled) and the double EV credit got the price down quite low. I look forward to another 5 years of use and wonder what the car market will look like by then?

We just acquired a 2024 RAV4 Prime as a functional replacement for two of our current vehicles, a Highlander hybrid and a Nissan Leaf.
Most of our local trips use less than the 40 miles of battery-only range and the 40 mpg on ICE will be great for occasional longer trips. As we're getting close to retirement age, we also want the impressive driver assistance systems that this vehicle offers.
We were also able to take advantage of a Toyota workaround to pass on $6,500 tax credits to "buyers" through its leasing program and an immediate lease buyout.
The Primes are still hard to find and snatched up quickly, some going for more than MSRP. We ended up about $1,100 below MSRP with $6,500 cash back for leasing.

 

[EbS-P]

We just acquired a 2024 RAV4 Prime as a functional replacement for two of our current vehicles, a Highlander hybrid and a Nissan Leaf.
Most of our local trips use less than the 40 miles of battery-only range and the 40 mpg on ICE will be great for occasional longer trips. As we're getting close to retirement age, we also want the impressive driver assistance systems that this vehicle offers.
We were also able to take advantage of a Toyota workaround to pass on $6,500 tax credits to "buyers" through its leasing program and an immediate lease buyout.
The Primes are still hard to find and snatched up quickly, some going for more than MSRP. We ended up about $1,100 below MSRP with $6,500 cash back for leasing.

Where is the Sienna Prime??? Though I would probably need to upgrade my charger to a least 40A. I wouldn’t make the daily drive with only 40 miles of range. And a 16A charger wouldn’t add enough over lunch to make it either.

 

[peakbagger]

There is a sweet spot where plug in hybrids fit. So far my near three year old Prime is hitting the sweet spot for me. One thing about the range is that its EPA range. Someone who commutes on an interstate at 70 MPH plus will not get the same range as someone in rural area running 45 mph. With me if its local drive in winter, I preheat it before getting in it and if its less than 40 miles, I run electric at speeds that rarely exceed 55 MPH, If I know the total trip will be over the range, I usually turn on the hybrid mode first thing to get some engine heat then switch back to electric so that at the end of the drive I have eaten up all the electric range. There are little idiosyncrasies in the programing, like even in hybrid mode, the car will eat up some electric range so that there is room for storing electric power during regeneration, takes a while to figure it out but makes sense.

 

[begreen]

Our Gen 1 Volt had 42 mile summer range that was more like 30 mile in colder weather. This was inadequate for full EV driving into the city and back which is a 35-45 mile trip depending on what part of Seattle we are going to. Our Gen 2 Volt has 65 mile summer range and around 42 winter range. This covers the round trip fully, year round, and is much more practical and satisfying for us. It allows us to do >95% of our driving on electric.

 

[semipro]

... if its local drive in winter, I preheat it before getting in it and if its less than 40 miles, I run electric at speeds that rarely exceed 55 MPH, If I know the total trip will be over the range, I usually turn on the hybrid mode first thing to get some engine heat then switch back to electric so that at the end of the drive I have eaten up all the electric range...

Great idea. I'll have to try that.
It's interesting the 'fun' you can have dealing with operational constraints and such, or maybe that's just me.
Our new scenario with the Prime looks to be much better as range anxiety is null and we have the opportunity to gain (cheap and clean) driving miles at home from our solar PV system and additional miles on trips via free charging sites.
We tend to favor destinations with free chargers. (business owners take heed as I'd imagine that EV owners may be a targeted sales demographic for many) .

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I’ve been happy with both my RAV4 prime and my wife’s Prius Prime. I do worry a little about the battery longevity. Assuming a 40 mile EV daily use for commuting you would have 5 recharge cycles per week vs a 200 mile EV needing only one. Plus there are some recharge cycles that happen naturally in hybrid mode that add some wear and tear.

But we never DC fast charge or hit the high / low ends of capacity (I think Toyota only lets you use between 20% and 80% or something like that) - so maybe it evens out in the end.

 

[semipro]

The RAV4 Prime came in at number 6 on a rating of green cars "based on a lifecycle assessment of the greenhouse gas and criteria pollutant emissions from the production, use, and disposal of each vehicle."
https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

Great idea. I'll have to try that.
It's interesting the 'fun' you can have dealing with operational constraints and such, or maybe that's just me.

There is also a stealth hybrid mode that will generally use EV with a gas supplement. Turn the front defrost on when in EV mode. This kicks it into hybrid mode but will still pull from the EV range down to 0 (which pure EV mode doesn’t do). Yes it’s stupid and you’d only do this when you want heat. But I find it’s more convenient than calculating miles for when to switch over on a longer day trip and makes the heating more pleasant. The heat pump with EV mode will keep you alive in cold weather but it feels like a cold draft. When you can pull some waste heat from the ICE it’s much more comfortable.

 

[peakbagger]

The RAV4 Prime came in at number 6 on a rating of green cars "based on a lifecycle assessment of the greenhouse gas and criteria pollutant emissions from the production, use, and disposal of each vehicle."
https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars
View attachment 325284

In my case, living in a rural mountainous area that still has a snow season, I wanted AWD and more ground clearance for light offroad plus some towing capacity and cargo room. The Rav 4 Prime is the first one on the list that met those criteria. Realistically if you look at the list, I think its the only one.

 

[EbS-P]

The RAV4 Prime came in at number 6 on a rating of green cars "based on a lifecycle assessment of the greenhouse gas and criteria pollutant emissions from the production, use, and disposal of each vehicle."
https://www.aceee.org/greener-cars
View attachment 325284

I didn’t dig far enough to read their methodology. I do find it interesting that every other study I have seen rate the life cycle emissions of BEVs as lower than PHEVs. Now I’m sure the actual use case of the PHEV which I’m sure at this point we have decent data on has impacts on the rating. Other factors are the grid make up and how that will change over the life of the vehicle.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

When I was looking into buying the prime a lot of the benefits of the PHEV vs. a BEV was the energy used to build the battery. There’s a lot of assumptions about ICE vs. EV use, cleanliness of the grid etc. that make it complicated.

This goes in more detail.

Is A Toyota RAV4 Prime Greener Than a Tesla Model Y? No, But It's Close

The Engineering Explained Youtube channel breaks down the numbers on CO2 emissions from two of today's hottest electric crossovers: Toyota RAV4 Prime and the Tesla Model Y.

www.torquenews.com

 

[EbS-P]

Any differences between the two are probably negated by all the assumptions made.

So based on 2022 data let’s call them equal. Every time year that passes the the EV becomes greener faster than the ICE. Batteries will be made with less emissions and the grid gets cleaner. At some point there is some likelihood that a used PHEV is purchased and run solely as a hybrid. (Just watch some “customer states” auto repair videos on YouTube many people have no clue about cars).

My point is best guestimation two years ago had the tesla tied. This is probably as close as a PHEV get to winning.

I agree it’s a really complicated calculation and putting a single number in while not explaining that number or even stating what the difference in 10 points represents is not useful for the consumer who really want to know is this the lowest carbon footprint given my use case.

I just don’t see how, if you can’t get the tax credit and are installing two electric motors a battery and an ICE you will be cost competitive from 2024 moving forward.

 

[RockyMtnGriz]

(Just watch some “customer states” auto repair videos on YouTube many people have no clue about cars).

If I owned a body cam I could post some "service manager states" videos that would prove some dealerships don't have a clue about cars either!

 

[peakbagger]

Any differences between the two are probably negated by all the assumptions made.

So based on 2022 data let’s call them equal. Every time year that passes the the EV becomes greener faster than the ICE. Batteries will be made with less emissions and the grid gets cleaner. At some point there is some likelihood that a used PHEV is purchased and run solely as a hybrid. (Just watch some “customer states” auto repair videos on YouTube many people have no clue about cars).

My point is best guestimation two years ago had the tesla tied. This is probably as close as a PHEV get to winning.

I agree it’s a really complicated calculation and putting a single number in while not explaining that number or even stating what the difference in 10 points represents is not useful for the consumer who really want to know is this the lowest carbon footprint given my use case.

I just don’t see how, if you can’t get the tax credit and are installing two electric motors a battery and an ICE you will be cost competitive from 2024 moving forward.

I think what it comes down to is new car tech is a moving target like PCs were for 10 years or so. It used to be when PCs first came out that a business computer was replaced every two years as the technology was moving so fast that a two year old unit would not run the newest software which had big productivity gains. That development curve slowed down to the point where firms like Microsoft have to make their operating systems obsolescent and none supported to force folks to upgrade. That is why the software model changed to subscriptions, companies assumed that they would sell software that was useful for a year or two and then new operating systems would require an upgrade. These days, I can easily live with a 10 year old version of a lot of software. Cars are expected to have a far longer useful life, in my case 6 to 7 years before the rust and boredom starts to justify a replacement. This is my first partial retirement car, even though I did a pre covid non traditional work from home job for 15 years, I did a lot of regional travel so the miles did crank up. Post retirement I expect my miles will drop substantially. I bought the Prime expecting that in another 3 or 4 years that the technological advancement curve on EVs will have slowed down. In my case with an unplanned for double $7,500 incentive, my Prime's cost was less than a hybrid Rav 4 and I paid cash so I am ahead of the game. My guess is the game will have changed big time when I am next actively on the market. My fuzzy guess is range will be far less of an issue and EVs will be far cheaper to own and operate than a hybrid and non hybrid will only be specialty vehicles. In the meantime I will keep my EMP resistant Unimog's in reserve

 

[woodgeek]

I made a similar bet to @peakbagger when I leased my Bolt in May 2022, assuming EVs would be much better in 2025. In particular that I could get a long range EV cheaply that also has good DCFC (unlike the 50 kW of the Bolt).

Cost (not price) projections for EVs are for them to drop 10% per year at least though 2030. This (if it shows up on sale prices) will drive mass adoption. And crush resale/residual percentages.

After 20 mos of my 39 mos lease, the KBB value of my 2022 Bolt EV is already $4k less than my lease residual.

For 2025 I'm looking at the Model Y 'Juniper', and the Boltium, both with Chinese LFP batteries. And also at the Volvo offerings. All are supposed to launch in 2025, so the timing and prices will be iffy.

Volvo is owned by Chinese maker Geely, so it is really a 'stealth Chinese' EV coming into the US market under a legacy badge. The cars are all manufactured in China at this point, while they still have a corp headquarters in Goteborg.

 

[peakbagger]

The new "saab" designed EV Electra is also a dark horse. Lots of good press. They use a hub drive platform which has the drivetrain in the wheels. It really opens up the interior space.

 

[EbS-P]

The new "saab" designed EV Electra is also a dark horse. Lots of good press. They use a hub drive platform which has the drivetrain in the wheels. It really opens up the interior space.

I don’t see how any EV that hasn’t sold more than 10k units in the last year or two can break into this hyper competitive market today. I would say a new smartphone company has better odds of releasing a competitive product than a new car company just based on the reduced complexity of the product and how has that gone? Sure there a couple brands other than the big 3 but I’ve never seen one in person.

LFP Ultium has potential but who is assembling the packs?

Quality doesn’t matter to many buyers. (I base this on thr number of land rovers I see driving around now) who know what will happen but there will vast sums of money made and lost in the next decade

 

[woodgeek]

I don’t see how any EV that hasn’t sold more than 10k units in the last year or two can break into this hyper competitive market today. I would say a new smartphone company has better odds of releasing a competitive product than a new car company just based on the reduced complexity of the product and how has that gone? Sure there a couple brands other than the big 3 but I’ve never seen one in person.

LFP Ultium has potential but who is assembling the packs?

Quality doesn’t matter to many buyers. (I base this on thr number of land rovers I see driving around now) who know what will happen but there will vast sums of money made and lost in the next decade

A lot of folks DO care about having a dealer network (assuming they will be needed for parts and repairs). So the Chinese brands buying up legacy brands (and their dealer networks) have that advantage, beyond 'brand recognition'.

 

[begreen]

A lot of folks DO care about having a dealer network (assuming they will be needed for parts and repairs). So the Chinese brands buying up legacy brands (and their dealer networks) have that advantage, beyond 'brand recognition'.

I do care, but that didn't stop thousands of Tesla owners. A lot of the service work for them is being done at the big 3 service centers. It's a growing business for GM dealers.

 

[woodgeek]

I do care, but that didn't stop thousands of Tesla owners. A lot of the service work for them is being done at the big 3 service centers. It's a growing business for GM dealers.

Fair. But there are a LOT of folks that are turned off by reported slow service and service problems, as well as the other Tesla issues. If you have two cars that might be ok, but if you are a single car household with commuters, it could be bad.

 

[EbS-P]

Fair. But there are a LOT of folks that are turned off by reported slow service and service problems, as well as the other Tesla issues. If you have two cars that might be ok, but if you are a single car household with commuters, it could be bad.

My driver’s window got stuck going down today in a drive through. Parked and lifted as motor went up and got it to close. Remember the windows go down before the door opens be the doors are frameless and they wanted good sound seals. That small down to open and up to close is still working.

I’m not driving 5 hours round trip to get it fixed. Hopefully it’s something that a mobile tech could fix. Or I could download the repair manual and see what it takes to take the door panel off but then I would not have parts or a garage to keep it in while I wait for parts.