Is lack of on the road charging stations really the biggest obstacle?

[begreen]

And on that note, put lots of outlets in apartment and work parking areas too.

There’s a Cheap Solution to the Electric Vehicle Charging Conundrum

We shouldn’t want to reduce the amount of time we spend charging; we should want to eliminate active charging entirely.

slate.com

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, I saw that one too.
The question is what all those outlets together will do around 5 pm when those cars plug in all at the same time (a similar argument has been made by peakbagger about charging at work), and the Slate article does not discuss - at all - this issue.

 

[begreen]

That is beyond the scope of the article. It's going to be an issue regardless of where the cars charge. Not every car will need a full charge every night. Smart cars and a smart grid can time-space the charging interval. Even our car can be programmed to charge at off-peak times. A smart car can also supply the grid on demand. Load balancing will be part of the grid or perhaps local microgrids. The Netherlands is already testing solutions for this.

 

[EbS-P]

Yes, I saw that one too.
The question is what all those outlets together will do around 5 pm when those cars plug in all at the same time (a similar argument has been made by peakbagger about charging at work), and the Slate article does not discuss - at all - this issue.

Duke already has load interupters on our AC/heatpump units and WiFi meters. This is where the utilities come in. We could implement a network charger standard but I don’t see that happening so I think it will all happen at the utility level. I could see a tiered program that gives an annual rebate based on the minimum 4pm-7am kWh delivered to the charger. Say 25$ a year to Guarantee a minimum of 10 kWh. 10$ for 25 kWh. Not sure that currently have the tech to measure usage at the device level but with a smart WiFi meter they could get close enough.

 

[EbS-P]

And on that note, put lots of outlets in apartment and work parking areas too.

There’s a Cheap Solution to the Electric Vehicle Charging Conundrum

We shouldn’t want to reduce the amount of time we spend charging; we should want to eliminate active charging entirely.

slate.com

I think we need to scrap all level 1 and insist on level 2 at 15-20 amps. How many extension cords are going to get strung out to make level 1 happen? What is the increased risk there? I tried to figure out how to do a 240v with my mobile adapter and the 15-20 amp 240v receptacles in the US are confusing and not widely available. (I was trying to use and existing 12-2 plus ground circuit to avoid running a neutral). There is no way for the car to know what the current capacity of the circuit is.

 

[stoveliker]

That is beyond the scope of the article. It's going to be an issue regardless of where the cars charge. Not every car will need a full charge every night. Smart cars and a smart grid can time-space the charging interval. Even our car can be programmed to charge at off-peak times. A smart car can also supply the grid on demand. Load balancing will be part of the grid or perhaps local microgrids. The Netherlands is already testing solutions for this.

I disagree; they state "this is the solution" without discussing boundary conditions/issues/problems with the proposed solution.

That's the same as me stating: all cars should have a mini nuclear reactor on board, as it solves all problems with electricity delivery, range etc. Of course this is a joke as it does not discuss the issues with that "solution".

The Slate article is not a joke, but arguing that it is the solution without discussing issues, is not a way that moves things forward.

 

[begreen]

The article clearly states that this is not the only solution. The author's intent is to illustrate that planners need to break with the current gas station paradigm. This is similar to the idea of putting charging outlets in lamp posts. The point being that EV charging in urban areas needs to be much more ubiquitous with simpler solutions. It's not a technical article about engineering issues or boundary conditions.
"The solution to the electric vehicle charging problem should fit current technology, not the technology of the prior century. Why should policymakers aim to copy gas stations when we can do so much better?"

 

[stoveliker]

Then why does it NOT fit current technology - as evidenced that some research is going on to mitigate the as of yet unresolved issues with the proposed solution.

I'm not against this idea (in fact, I'm quite strongly in favor), but touting something as a solution when it's not (nearly) there, raises expectations that should not (yet) be raised.

Proposing solutions without addressing issues that NEED to be addressed for said proposal to even be a solution is a bad idea.

My proposal is then a solution too. Mini nukes on every car.

It should be instead discussed as a way to mitigate SOME of the issues in the de-carbonization of transport.

This is the same issue that plagues science: finding something good, and "selling" is as a solution to a problem. E.g. as in all (!) near-room-temperature superconductivity that invariably are touted as a solution to grid losses. When in fact all said superconductors only do so at practically useless high pressures.

 

[begreen]

 

[stoveliker]

If apparently we are going to play it personal: arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about and/or misconstrue what is said, and thus resort to ad hominems is tiring.

Re: misconstrue: I never said it was not useful, I never said it was the only solution they pushed. I said that something is not a solution if it has 1 good aspect, but more difficult issues that need resolving are conveniently ignored. At that point, it can be a nice, useful, and true pointer/hint, but it is by no means a solution. Promising such is just wrong and deceptive.

So goodbye.

 

[woodgeek]

I thought the Slate article was poorly/annoyingly written, and not clear what it was saying.

I think we could benefit from some standardization of charging equipment for use on streets, apt buildings, workplaces. Such as having the car communicate with the L2 charger via bluetooth (or modulated signals on the charging cable) to handle metering/billing.

In a personal garage, a dumb EVSE is fine. If I was an apt owner or an employer I would be happy to install (and maintain) EVSEs, but I want nothing to do with metering/billing, or dealing with 'estimates' or enforcement or bill collection.

I see that as a simple engineering issue. Ditch all the current shady 'networks' for L2 payment, and their inability to maintain their equipment.

Once a clear soln is available... public policy (and the marketplace) will get them installed all over.

 

[begreen]

A big concern for ubiquitous street charging is theft. Tweakers can make a quick collection of a lot of copper. This is where wireless charging and perhaps battery swap stations look more attractive. I think China, the Netherlands, and Norway will guide solutions. They have much higher rates of EV adoption. Hope good solutions come from Europe. In China, theft is lower for now perhaps because they have cameras everywhere and facial recognition for every person. Welcome to big brother.

Electric car charging cable theft could be the next car crime wave

An increase in thefts of charging cables for electric and plug-in hybrid cars is the number one concern for owners

www.whatcar.com

New Tesla Supercharger Station Vandalized: Every Cable Cut, Stolen

Tesla Supercharger stations, along with other public charging stations, are prone to attacks since they're typically unattended, along with being open 24 hours.

insideevs.com

 

[begreen]

If apparently we are going to play it personal: arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about and/or misconstrue what is said, and thus resort to ad hominems is tiring.

Sorry, there was no intent to misconstrue words. Internet humor is hard sometimes.

 

[Poindexter]

The biggest problem I see is home charging. I get there are all kids of averages for this and that. I came at this kind of sideways, lemme tell you a little story...

I am having both my boiler and water heater replaced this month. Had to move the laundry machines out of the way. Finally was able to track down the 220vac/ 20amp breaker in the panel labeled "hot water heater" - the water heater coming out wasn't hooked to electric, just a hot water loop on the old boiler, same as the new one going in.

So I get all the old wiring out and now I have a spare 220 breaker - or two adjacent 110s - in my otherwise full to capacity breaker panel. I have a 100amp service. My local transformer is across the street in my neighbor's front yard, cable is buried under the street. Power enters the house on the east wall, breaker panel is 30 feet away on the inside wall of the garage.

Ripping out a bunch of drywall and tunneling a new wire under the street to upgrade my service is not happening. So I read up on EV chargers. My plan was (and is) to put "some kind of" 220volt outlet on the garage wall, covering up the hack job I just removed in the process. I have a bit of a wood working hobby and would love to put in a 5 horsepower dust collection system.

I am putting in a NEMA 14-30. Receptacle is $14.99 at the home store. 8-3 with ground (Red, black, white and bare copper inside the outer jacket) is $6.68/ foot, need two feet to mount the receptacle in the same stud cavity the breaker panel occupies. It happens to be where the big ugly hole in my drywall already is. Metal junction box and junction box cover is going to be about $6. I am going to use a piece of 3/4 plywood 16x34 inches to span three wall studs, have the receptacle on it, cover the hole in the drywall - and have a convenient adjacent spot of 3/4 plywood to mount an EV charger too. 30 amp breaker, about $60, GFCI of same not available local. A couple conduit clamps, 48x48 half sheet of 3/4 plywood was $78 last week (sheesh!).

So really, to add a NEMA 14-30 in the same stud cavity as the existing breaker panel is under $200 in parts and a Saturday afternoon to do a first class DIY job.

I would be willing to put in a NEMA 14-50 for an EV charger - if I could find "smart breakers" that talk to each other. I can look at my electric bill and see the wife and I average about 500 watts continuous, 12 kwh per day. There is plenty of headroom on my 100amp main breaker, but for me to drop in a 50amp breaker I would want the breaker for say the cook stove to signal the other breakers "I am going to start up in 50 microseconds" so the EV charger would have an opportunity to reduce its current draw. Same with the dryer and the boiler. Or a dust collector.

I don't think I can safely put in a dumb 50 amp breaker, put a big dumb wood working machine on it and not start popping breakers. I do see having an EV charger on a 50amp breaker allows the car to charge a lot faster than hanging it on a 30amp breaker. While my home's incoming power wiring is not ideal, having the main buried in drywall for dozens of feet is also not unusual.

FWIW I bought 10 feet of 8-3 with ground and have temporary hot water while the water heater is getting moved around on the floor day after day. My new water heater is electric, but isn't hooked to the hot water loop on the boiler yet. So for now I am heating hot water with my temporary electric cord.

If I was doing a one and done I would think about buying two feet of 6-3 with ground in case a smart enough 50 amp breaker comes along later. With 6 gage installed, upgrading to 50 amp service would be just replace the breaker and replace the receptacle, without having to open the wall.

In my situation it might make more sense to go with a hard wired EV charger so some yahoo (like me) doesn't come along and use the 50 amp circuit with dumb wood working machines instead of a smart EV charger.

FWIW I don't believe anyone ever when they start talking about free electricity, "free" EV charging. Somebody is paying for the fuel that got burned to make steam to spin the turbines. It may not be the owner of the car, but somebody paid money for the fuel that got burnt, and the plant operators didn't clock out for two hours of their 12 hour shift while they were making "free" charging for anybody's EV.

M2c, but at home charging in suburbia puts a pretty firm limit on how many miles you can drive a day, once you know the weight and Cd of the vehicle.

If I owned say a 4plex I would have split electric anyway. Putting in a NEMA 14-50 on each of the four subpanels at 4 parking spaces would be doable, even with locking all weather covers on them. But setting up the electric panels so an outgoing tenant could take their hardwired brand X charger with them and an incoming tenant could have their brand Y charger hard wired instead is not a thing. As the building owner I have to answer to the insurance company for all the wiring- but the tenants are responsible for what they plug into the building. This is where hardwired chargers need to become universal. Chevy-Tesla-Toyota - how about "car" kinda like we already have "dryer?"

 

[woodgeek]

FWIW I don't believe anyone ever when they start talking about free electricity, "free" EV charging. Somebody is paying for the fuel that got burned to make steam to spin the turbines. It may not be the owner of the car, but somebody paid money for the fuel that got burnt, and the plant operators didn't clock out for two hours of their 12 hour shift while they were making "free" charging for anybody's EV.

M2c, but at home charging in suburbia puts a pretty firm limit on how many miles you can drive a day, once you know the weight and Cd of the vehicle.

If I owned say a 4plex I would have split electric anyway. Putting in a NEMA 14-50 on each of the four subpanels at 4 parking spaces would be doable, even with locking all weather covers on them. But setting up the electric panels so an outgoing tenant could take their hardwired brand X charger with them and an incoming tenant could have their brand Y charger hard wired instead is not a thing. As the building owner I have to answer to the insurance company for all the wiring- but the tenants are responsible for what they plug into the building. This is where hardwired chargers need to become universal. Chevy-Tesla-Toyota - how about "car" kinda like we already have "dryer?"

Thanks for the deets. Sounds great to me.

Right now we don't have 'dryer', or even 'range' plugs. We have multiple 240V plugs (in old construction), often 3-wire, for both 30A and 50A service. 4-wire versions of both are commonly mandated in new construction, but if you purchase an appliance, they will sell you a separate cord with it. And you can still buy the 3-wire receptacles to replace the old ones if they look janky.

I think most folks would be aok with a 240V 30A outlet. 240V at 24A (continuous rating) is 5.75 kW. As for your limit, that works out to be (assuming a 12 hour charging cycle), 62 kWh into the battery per day (assuming 10% charging loss), or 125 mi/day in heavy winter, over 200 miles/day mild weather. I'm sure there are some people who need to drive 3000 miles per month, who also have 100A panels, but they're not the majority.

If you shop for EVSEs, you can def buy them with any ampacity, hard-wired or any NEMA plug input, J1774 (not Tesla) or Tesla out. Or a dongle on the output to do either. Not an issue.

As for an apt building, hardwire a UL-listed EVSE with a J1774 and a reasonable power, and you're good. If the renter wants to use a dongle for their Tesla, they can supply that. With the UL-listing, your insurer doesn't care. OR put in a 30A or 50A plug, and tell the renter to bring an EVSE if they want.

IMO its just another appliance. Some rentals have a washer/dryer, some make you buy your own. If there's a central laundry room, the owner usually puts the appliance in (like a shared garage for EVSEs). If its a private laundry room (like a private garage) you can just have a plug there for hookup. I suspect that an EVSE is going to be lower maintenance and longer life than a lot of washer/dryers.

 

[Poindexter]

I can't disagree with @woodgeek very hard.

When I look at an 'old' cook stove receptacle I see NEMA 10-50. When I look at an old dryer outlet, I see NEMA 10-30. For the new 4 wire stuff, change the "10" to "14," for NEMA 14-30 and 14-50.

I am really not in a position to know if "most folks {in the lower 48} would be A-OK with an EV charging circuit at 220vac/30amp." I have been up here in Alaska too long and am out of touch. I don't think it would be adequate up here in my house, for an EV to be used daily.

1. getting below half a tank of fuel in the wintertime (up here) is risky. Just think of 'half' as 'E' and when you get there, fill up. That way when (not if) you do get stranded on the side of the road, you are going to be able to stay warm for a few hours and not die.

2. I am in a five bedroom house walking distance to an excellent elementary school. This tidbit was not explicated previously. With a 100 amp service. The utility usage of children is mind boggling. The next owners of my house, most likely, will be one working parent, one stay at home parent, and at least three children already roaming the planet. That will be at least one load of laundry daily, at least one dishwasher cycle daily, often two of each, and I am not confident a 12 hour charging cycle for the EV will be available.

Here, in really a rural area, it would make sense for the stay at home parent to have access to an ICE vehicle big enough to take all the kids anywhere, and maybe have the working parent commute in the EV.

3. There is also battery warming to consider in the winter months. Indoor conditioned space is very expensive in Fairbanks. My wife and I both park in the driveway year round. I have a timer on an outdoor outlet that comes on around 0500 so when I hit the key on my truck at 0700 the battery heating pad, the heated cylinder head bolt and the transmission pan heater have all been running for two hours, at 1 kwh per vehicle per hour. I have no idea how much current it would take to keep a larger battery pack warm, but I bet it would be more. For both halves of a couple up here to both be parking in a heated garage 24/7/365 you are looking for one spouse to be well up in the high 6's dependably, and breaking into the low 7s for annual income about half the time.

I suspect Fairbanks will be one of the last places in the USA to go all in on EVs - but this does not mean woodgeek's points are without merit in the lower 48 and Hawaii.

 

[EbS-P]

The biggest problem I see is home charging. I get there are all kids of averages for this and that. I came at this kind of sideways, lemme tell you a little story...

I am having both my boiler and water heater replaced this month. Had to move the laundry machines out of the way. Finally was able to track down the 220vac/ 20amp breaker in the panel labeled "hot water heater" - the water heater coming out wasn't hooked to electric, just a hot water loop on the old boiler, same as the new one going in.

So I get all the old wiring out and now I have a spare 220 breaker - or two adjacent 110s - in my otherwise full to capacity breaker panel. I have a 100amp service. My local transformer is across the street in my neighbor's front yard, cable is buried under the street. Power enters the house on the east wall, breaker panel is 30 feet away on the inside wall of the garage.

Ripping out a bunch of drywall and tunneling a new wire under the street to upgrade my service is not happening. So I read up on EV chargers. My plan was (and is) to put "some kind of" 220volt outlet on the garage wall, covering up the hack job I just removed in the process. I have a bit of a wood working hobby and would love to put in a 5 horsepower dust collection system.

I am putting in a NEMA 14-30. Receptacle is $14.99 at the home store. 8-3 with ground (Red, black, white and bare copper inside the outer jacket) is $6.68/ foot, need two feet to mount the receptacle in the same stud cavity the breaker panel occupies. It happens to be where the big ugly hole in my drywall already is. Metal junction box and junction box cover is going to be about $6. I am going to use a piece of 3/4 plywood 16x34 inches to span three wall studs, have the receptacle on it, cover the hole in the drywall - and have a convenient adjacent spot of 3/4 plywood to mount an EV charger too. 30 amp breaker, about $60, GFCI of same not available local. A couple conduit clamps, 48x48 half sheet of 3/4 plywood was $78 last week (sheesh!).

So really, to add a NEMA 14-30 in the same stud cavity as the existing breaker panel is under $200 in parts and a Saturday afternoon to do a first class DIY job.

I would be willing to put in a NEMA 14-50 for an EV charger - if I could find "smart breakers" that talk to each other. I can look at my electric bill and see the wife and I average about 500 watts continuous, 12 kwh per day. There is plenty of headroom on my 100amp main breaker, but for me to drop in a 50amp breaker I would want the breaker for say the cook stove to signal the other breakers "I am going to start up in 50 microseconds" so the EV charger would have an opportunity to reduce its current draw. Same with the dryer and the boiler. Or a dust collector.

I don't think I can safely put in a dumb 50 amp breaker, put a big dumb wood working machine on it and not start popping breakers. I do see having an EV charger on a 50amp breaker allows the car to charge a lot faster than hanging it on a 30amp breaker. While my home's incoming power wiring is not ideal, having the main buried in drywall for dozens of feet is also not unusual.

FWIW I bought 10 feet of 8-3 with ground and have temporary hot water while the water heater is getting moved around on the floor day after day. My new water heater is electric, but isn't hooked to the hot water loop on the boiler yet. So for now I am heating hot water with my temporary electric cord.

If I was doing a one and done I would think about buying two feet of 6-3 with ground in case a smart enough 50 amp breaker comes along later. With 6 gage installed, upgrading to 50 amp service would be just replace the breaker and replace the receptacle, without having to open the wall.

In my situation it might make more sense to go with a hard wired EV charger so some yahoo (like me) doesn't come along and use the 50 amp circuit with dumb wood working machines instead of a smart EV charger.

FWIW I don't believe anyone ever when they start talking about free electricity, "free" EV charging. Somebody is paying for the fuel that got burned to make steam to spin the turbines. It may not be the owner of the car, but somebody paid money for the fuel that got burnt, and the plant operators didn't clock out for two hours of their 12 hour shift while they were making "free" charging for anybody's EV.

M2c, but at home charging in suburbia puts a pretty firm limit on how many miles you can drive a day, once you know the weight and Cd of the vehicle.

If I owned say a 4plex I would have split electric anyway. Putting in a NEMA 14-50 on each of the four subpanels at 4 parking spaces would be doable, even with locking all weather covers on them. But setting up the electric panels so an outgoing tenant could take their hardwired brand X charger with them and an incoming tenant could have their brand Y charger hard wired instead is not a thing. As the building owner I have to answer to the insurance company for all the wiring- but the tenants are responsible for what they plug into the building. This is where hardwired chargers need to become universal. Chevy-Tesla-Toyota - how about "car" kinda like we already have "dryer?"

I’m perfectly happy charging hardwired 240v at 13 amps (same power as my electric griddle). I can get 30 kWh per day on 12-2, cal it 100 ideal miles. I could bump it up to 16 amps. Only needed 15’ of 12-2 and a tandem single pole to free up a spot and a regular double pole breaker.

I think the smart load monitoring chargers could maximize amount of charge especially when charging multiple vehicles. Tesla chargers can be synced to unit max current but I think each one needs its own circuit.

BEVs in cold weather presents a whole new set of challenges. Figure 1/2 to 1/3 epa rated rang. I don’t know what the draw of the battery heater is. Mine is resistive heat. New ones are heatpump heat. I’m not sure I would want the heatpump when it’s below zero. It’s not just an northern tundra issue. Any nights that get below 40 F and you loose regenerative breaking performance. You can preheat battery on a schedule. I could be wrong but the heat draws from the main battery and keeping a 1000+ pound battery pack warm when it’s cold would take some significant power and significantly reduce the life span of the pack.

One could argue that public and workplace chargers in cold and rural regions are more important than in suburbia. Only needing to charge for a oneway commute and keeping the battery warm would reduce load on 100 amp services and possibly allow for 2 vehicles to charge at the lame time.

But I agree when it’s winter never letting a fuel tank drop below half is good safe practice. I grew up 15 miles from Towner Co. The Towner bus tragedy was still discussed and everyone took winter driving in bad conditions seriously. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasant_Hill_bus_tragedy

 

[begreen]

Yes, our home EVSE is a 25 amp unit, though the Volt charger only pulls 14 amps. That gives us 65 mi. summer driving range in a 4 hr charge which is plenty for our needs. Even if when we upgrade to a BEV that can draw more current, this setup will probably be sufficient. Fast charging is more important when traveling greater distances.
I agree that extreme climate conditions will be challenging for EVs; they are for any vehicle. Many modern EVs have battery heating/cooling systems built-in which should help.

 

[Poindexter]

I came at this looking for what to do with my spare breaker, and now I have been shopping EVs.

I did see a possible contender. The Mercedes Benz "Smart EQ for 2" is about double the footprint of my snowthrower, was discontinued in 2019; but might be a reasonable commuter. 1 occupant, stop by the grocery store on the way home from work, using only 15 miles, about a quarter of the smallest published (EPA 58 miles) mileage range. It would fit in the garage easier than a full size car. At 2300# it might do pretty good in snow with the correct tires under it.

EVO compare dot something rates its efficiency at 100 miles per 30kwh of charge. I hadn't looked at that parameter before, but on a 220/30 circuit delivering 24 amps I come up with 12.5 hours charging time to have 100 miles of ordinary climate range - but the battery capacity is 17.6 kwh. My 220/30 circuit at 24 amp draw would deliver 5.28 kwh per hour, so I could get from 'fumes' to full battery in about 3 hours and 20 minutes. I would require some sort of electricity access at my office where I park outdoors to keep the battery from freezing. I wonder what would happen to the mileage range of that little thing when the cabin heater and defrost are set to "welding torch."

It seems to me a good way to increase range is to decrease weight and decrease air resistance - or add battery size which increases weight.

 

[begreen]

LOL, no EV that I know of has a "welding torch" heat output or anything near the quick heat output of a fully warmed up ICE vehicle. However, the smaller cabin of the Smart EQ should be easier to heat. Are there any running around Fairbanks? They would be the ones to ask about cold weather performance and issues.

 

[EbS-P]

I came at this looking for what to do with my spare breaker, and now I have been shopping EVs.

I did see a possible contender. The Mercedes Benz "Smart EQ for 2" is about double the footprint of my snowthrower, was discontinued in 2019; but might be a reasonable commuter. 1 occupant, stop by the grocery store on the way home from work, using only 15 miles, about a quarter of the smallest published (EPA 58 miles) mileage range. It would fit in the garage easier than a full size car. At 2300# it might do pretty good in snow with the correct tires under it.

EVO compare dot something rates its efficiency at 100 miles per 30kwh of charge. I hadn't looked at that parameter before, but on a 220/30 circuit delivering 24 amps I come up with 12.5 hours charging time to have 100 miles of ordinary climate range - but the battery capacity is 17.6 kwh. My 220/30 circuit at 24 amp draw would deliver 5.28 kwh per hour, so I could get from 'fumes' to full battery in about 3 hours and 20 minutes. I would require some sort of electricity access at my office where I park outdoors to keep the battery from freezing. I wonder what would happen to the mileage range of that little thing when the cabin heater and defrost are set to "welding torch."

It seems to me a good way to increase range is to decrease weight and decrease air resistance - or add battery size which increases weight.

Personally I think battery technology will see some great advances in the next 2-3 year. I don’t see how a BEV could be a replacement for an ICE in Fairbanks with today’s technology unless you really only needed 75 or less range a day maybe you could have enough juice to heat the battery up at work for the trip home and being green is worth the extra cost. But I’m jus guessing. Tesla had lots of issues with the heatpump and when it stops the car is disabled until it is fixed because you can’t defrost the windshield.

 

[peakbagger]

A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.

 

[begreen]

A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.

I read that the Volkswagen Group is also investing in solid-state batteries coming online around 2025. I had the same thought about the massive investments in lithium battery tech if they take off. The Ultium battery pack design that GM has developed at least seems more upgradeable and adaptable to different battery technologies. Allegedly it can even handle combos of different battery chemistries.

 

[EbS-P]

A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.

I wonder how quickly they can retool for new batteries. Really is a vehicle designed to use current batter Tech upgradable to new technology. The software would all have to be updated but if the charging system hardware is the same one would think it’s possible. Tesla is now using two different battery cells in the model Y.

 

[peakbagger]

Changing software is relatively easy (for a factory). Batteries cells are small and there are lot of them. Think of them as Legos, they can be repacked into a different form factor pretty easily. Obviously, a clean sheet design is better but my guess is the limiting factor how quickly and the economics to retool the factories. The other aspect is if there is shift in chemistry, what rare earth materials suddenly become in big demand?