Got Propane?

[sloeffle]

We were a "low use" propane customer when we were renting our propane tank. After haggling with the propane company for awhile over the charges we ended up buying our tank. That was one of the smarter moves I made. It allowed me to shop around for propane and not have a bill show up at my door for a propane fill up that I did not need. I also ended up selling the tank for more than what I bought it for. We are all electric now.

 

[AK13]

We were a "low use" propane customer when we were renting our propane tank. After haggling with the propane company for awhile over the charges we ended up buying our tank.

I've been thinking about doing this for a long time. Did the propane company sell you the tank?

I think that I'm going to pursue this further.

 

[Gasifier]

Gouging. I'm not sure I support the price regulation during those emergencies. I get that it seems wrong on the surface but it's supply and demand. Don't buy plywood as a hurricane approaches or your propane as the temps plummet and you won't get screwed. Or if possible, don't buy propane/fuel oil at all.
When I bought my house, I got off electricity because propane was so much cheaper. Oh how the times have changed!

Supply and demand is not the problem. It is when an emergency like a disaster hits and they jack the price way up because they know the people have no choice. They have to have it. Ain't right.

Suppose you have one place to go buy something you have to have. You have no time to plan. Your truck broke down and you need one to make money. No ifs ands or buts about it. You truck is broke beyond repair and the dealer knows it. Yesterday the price of the truck you need was $30,000. Now that you need it and can't do without it the price of the truck is $35,000. What would you think?

 

[MarkW]

It is the epitome of supply and demand. I have a need and the vendor has the product. I will pay the price or go without. I won't like it but it believe it is equitable. As a vendor, why should I not be able to sell that which I own for the price I choose because someone else doesn't like my price?

 

[Gasifier]

It is the epitome of supply and demand. I have a need and the vendor has the product. I will pay the price or go without. I won't like it but it believe it is equitable. As a vendor, why should I not be able to sell that which I own for the price I choose because someone else doesn't like my price?

Yup. Okay. Now all bets are off. There is no regulation. Now when you go to the shopping center and they have doubled all the prices since yesterday, no tripled them. They can choose the price. Right? And you can't afford to feed the family........... Then the gasoline vendors double the price, because they can, of the gasoline and you can't afford to pay that......... Then the guys selling you the electricity says, hey if they can do it, then I will too. Now the price of the electricity is twice what it was. The epitome of supply and demand right. When you and your kids are getting hungry, you have to buy the gas to get to your job to make money, the lights are now off.............. when does it end? When do you say, "Hey, this is not right." ? Wait a minute!

 

[MarkW]

when does it end?

When another vendor hoping to steal customers away drops the prices or no one can afford the high prices and the offending vendor must lower prices to get business Happens all the time.

 

[Gasifier]

When another vendor hoping to steal customers away drops the prices or no one can afford the high prices and the offending vendor must lower prices to get business Happens all the time.

Unless there is only one vendor. Should they be able to do whatever they want? Now it gets into politics, greed, etc. And I will get out of the conversation. Thanks for it though. Stay warm.

 

[Fred61]

Free enterprise except for the electricity which is regulated by the public service board because there is no competition. When you're in business there is always someone who thinks they can sell more widgets at a lower price than you can. Sometimes they put you out of business along with themselves.

 

[Gasifier]

I like free enterprise. I also like to eat. Drive my truck. Etc. There is a fine line if things start becoming a monopoly. That is why there are times regulation is needed.

 

[MarkW]

I agree regarding monopolies. To be avoided at amost all costs.
Thanks for the conversationn. I also agree that we've derailed the OP topic enough.

 

[Enzo's Dad]

Some times I ask myself why i live in CT, we are near the highest in the nation for gas, home heating oil, and electricity. Our electric bill is over $150 no matter what, and this is with energy saver bulbs and appliances. I read on a thread here that somone paid $30 a month for electricity? thats not even a week for me! The last chart is interesting because Diesel and home heating oil are basically the same. In the northeast the will always keep diesel higher than home heating oil, strange thing diesel costs less to produce than gas.

For New Englanders try this I pick up Diesel in MA for 3.99 a gallon, but when i use stop and shop points at a shell I am getting it for 3.49 a gallon. I get 15 gallons per trip and use it for my domestic hot water.the Average price of home heating oil is 3.89 a gallon.


http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPD2F_PRS_SCT_DPG&f=W

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

 

[MarkW]

Yeah, diesel is terrible. They got it to $4/gallon and don't seem to waver much no matter what the price of oil goes to.

I'm happy I don't have you electric bill, either. I average $65 most months except when A/C and pool are going at the same time. Still don't go over $100, then.

 

[sloeffle]

I've been thinking about doing this for a long time. Did the propane company sell you the tank?

I think that I'm going to pursue this further.

Yes, we bought the tank that was on our property. We paid 1$ a gallon for it. Just make sure that you get the paper work from the company you are buying it from. The paper work should state that you are the owner of xyz serial number propane tank and not renting it. The propane delivery person will check it before they put any propane in your tank.

Scott

 

[chken]

See the graph at this website: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W

Notice that in January of 2000 price for a gallon was $0.95, January of 2014 $2.57. Too bad income levels haven't had such an increase over the same time.

Just looked. If you start from when the data actually starts, way back around January of 1991, when it was $1.00, that's 23 years to get to $2.53.

While it seems like the price may have changed a lot since then, that's only a 1.87% annual increase, essentially the rate of inflation.

 

[MarkW]

Yes, we bought the tank that was on our property. We paid 1$ a gallon for it. Just make sure that you get the paper work from the company you are buying it from. The paper work should state that you are the owner of xyz serial number propane tank and not renting it. The propane delivery person will check it before they put any propane in your tank.

Do you ever have to have it recertified? That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.

 

[sloeffle]

Do you ever have to have it recertified? That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.

The tank was certified a few years before we bought it. It had a tag from Ferrelgas showing it was certified. The tank we bought was actually from 1973 or 1975 if I remember correctly.

I am not sure how or who would re-certify a owner owned tank if needed to be done.

Scott

 

[arbutus]

Do you ever have to have it recertified? That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.

ASME tanks do not have to be recertified as long as it remains in good condition and the nameplate is legible.
DOT tanks must be recertified every ?12? years.

 

[arbutus]

Our 80 gallon electric hot water heater costs about $30/month, at $0.17/kwh.

Family of five.

What would a 'typical' propane DHW bill be for a month? There's also the chimney out of it that must be causing SOME standby losses?

So 176 kwh or 597125 btu per month at near 100% efficiency. (Best case, not including standby loss)
1085681 btu input at 55% efficiency with a conventional gas water heater. Probably includes standby loss
746406 btu input at 80% with a powervent gas water heater. Probably includes standby loss
About 91500 btu per gallon of propane, so about 11.9 and 8.15 gallons, equivalent use, respectively.
Multiply by your local propane cost per gallon.

This ignores the life and cost of the water heater, you can buy two inexpensive electric water heaters for the same price as a gas water heater.

 

[begreen]

Typical propane prices go out the window when there is a shortage. This can happen in a cold snap like we're seeing now or if a refinery shuts down as happened several years back. We were up to almost $4.00/gal for a while there. Some parts of the country are seeing this now.

 

[BoilerMan]

Typical propane prices go out the window when there is a shortage. This can happen in a cold snap like we're seeing now or if a refinery shuts down as happened several years back. We were up to almost $4.00/gal for a while there. Some parts of the country are seeing this now.

This is why you have enough tank (be it LPG or oil) to ride out the winter. I think that is one of the huge benefits with wood.

Say you burn 800 gals of oil/winter, well if you had a 1,000 gal tank and bought in the summer you could ride out the winter. Getting the $$$$$ to make all of this happen, and be able to financially fill the thing all at once, would get you a better price..... I guess if the whole country thought like this we wouldn't have credit cards, debt......

TS

 

[begreen]

If you can stock up that is a good idea. In our case the price hike lasted several years until the refinery came back on line and natural gas dropped in price. We did better and got rid of the propane furnace. Replaced it with a very high efficiency heat pump and a honking big stove. Now we fill up the propane tank for the kitchen cooktop only. It gets filled once every 5 yrs.

 

[jebatty]

Yup. Okay. Now all bets are off. There is no regulation. Now when you go to the shopping center and they have doubled all the prices since yesterday, no tripled them. They can choose the price. Right? And you can't afford to feed the family........... Then the gasoline vendors double the price, because they can, of the gasoline and you can't afford to pay that......... Then the guys selling you the electricity says, hey if they can do it, then I will too. Now the price of the electricity is twice what it was. The epitome of supply and demand right. When you and your kids are getting hungry, you have to buy the gas to get to your job to make money, the lights are now off.............. when does it end? When do you say, "Hey, this is not right." ? Wait a minute!

This scenario is what poor families face every day just to live. And to understand that, try to live on $20,000/year for a single parent plus a small child needing daycare. Can't be done without public or other outside assistance. Just having enough money to buy gas for the car to get to and from work 20 miles away is a daily struggle.

I know this only too well because my wife and I are "outside assistance" to a young lady with a small child, who has a full time job paying more than the minimum wage, and who struggles every month just to live. She does everything right and still can't live without help for daycare, food, heating, and health care.

Sorry to further derail this, but the cries of the poor result in budget cuts on federal and state levels, while the cries of the not-poor about the price of propane make the headlines. I feel the hurt of all those whose are facing heating budgets out of control due to the price of propane, but I cry with the poor who live in this circumstance every day of their lives.

 

[sloeffle]

This ignores the life and cost of the water heater, you can buy two inexpensive electric water heaters for the same price as a gas water heater.

Or buy a Marathon and be done with it.

 

[BoiledOver]

Just looked. If you start from when the data actually starts, way back around January of 1991, when it was $1.00, that's 23 years to get to $2.53.

While it seems like the price may have changed a lot since then, that's only a 1.87% annual increase, essentially the rate of inflation.

That is some interesting math there.

This is the math I know. At 1.87% per year increase will equate to a net increase of 53% over 23 years. $1.00 plus $0.53 equals $1.53. Not $2.53.

Taking the $0.95 price of January, 2000 plus the 171% increase that actually occurred: 0.95 x 1.71 = 1.62 . . 1.62 + 0.95 = 2.57. So the price I mentioned in the OP had a 171% increase over 14 years.

 

[chken]

That is some interesting math there.

This is the math I know. At 1.87% per year increase will equate to a net increase of 53% over 23 years. $1.00 plus $0.53 equals $1.53. Not $2.53.

Taking the $0.95 price of January, 2000 plus the 171% increase that actually occurred: 0.95 x 1.71 = 1.62 . . 1.62 + 0.95 = 2.57. So the price I mentioned in the OP had a 171% increase over 14 years.

Darn, I always forget to remove that "1", when I use the exponential function. So, redoing the math, going from $1.00 to $2.53 in 23 years gives me 4.1%.

Or looking at your shorter period, of 14 years and 1 week, I get 7.3% annual increases. Of course, the 9 year period before that had 0.6% increases.

The point being wherever you take your starting point will have a huge effect upon your result, and looking at a 4.1% annual increase over the last 23 years doesn't seem nearly as intimidating as 171% over 14 years.