Goose accessibility thread...

[begreen]

I would not do anything until a plan is drawn up and tested for accessibility. It is much cheaper to do this on paper than to make changes mid-stream in construction. There are several options. It is not that big a deal to expand into the closet if that greatly increases the usability of the bathroom. Rent or borrow a wheelchair asap and try it out before committing to a plan. The way the current plan looks, it seems like a wheelchair will get wedged between the toilet and sink. There doesn't appear to be enough room there, maybe just 3 ft.?

The plan does not have to be crazy formal, a basic pencil sketch will do as long as it is dimensionally correct and to scale. But it should stand up to review. Don't stress, there is time to do this before next weekend. Get the tile guy in on Monday and meet with a handicap space designer at the rehab center. Experiment a little, draw up alternative ideas on graph paper and post the results here. Several of us have construction experience and are very willing to help out. If you are not ready, then put it off for a week or two. Give yourself enough time to do this right without additional stress.

Also, did Tim take door measurements? Are all at least 32" wide?

FWIW, our custom shower took a full week to tile in. There is a fair amount of prep work that has to be done and drying times in between each step. It was a bit complicated and has a custom pattern that made it a bit more challenging. The floor pan and drain are a critical step that has multiple layers and a membrane system. Speak to the tile guy to get a real sense of what is involved. Allow enough time and don't skip on the waterproofing steps for the backerboard.

 

[mgwmgw]

We have a drawing showing where things are from above. It is dimensionally correct.

How do we test it?

 

[begreen]

Borrow or rent a wheelchair, sit in it and try to navigate in the bathroom. Also, you can make a paper cut out of a scaled wheelchair, including the turning radius needed, and roll it around the plan. I do this with graph paper and make scaled objects that I can move around. That way one can move the toilet, the wheelchair etc. Goose can also do this electronically in his CAD program if that is more efficient.

Here is the area I am concerned about:

 

[begreen]

For the ramp builders, here is a good information website:
http://www.wheelchairramp.org/

Curbless Shower design - this is a really nice resource with great detailed drawings. Print out for the tile guy and the construction crew:
(broken link removed to http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/Curbless.pdf)

Trench_drain option for the shower drain:
(broken link removed to http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/trench_drain.pdf)

and a good overall design guide for making a home more accessible:
(broken link removed to http://www.design.ncsu.edu/cud/pubs_p/docs/residential_remodelinl.pdf)

 

[LLigetfa]

FWIW, our custom shower took a full week to tile in. There is a fair amount of prep work that has to be done and drying times in between each step. It was a bit complicated and has a custom pattern that made it a bit more challenging. The floor pan and drain are a critical step that has multiple layers and a membrane system. Speak to the tile guy to get a real sense of what is involved. Allow enough time and don't skip on the waterproofing steps for the backerboard.

Mine was a similar experience. While I knew what was in the wall prior to the demo, there was still a lot of plumbing to move and I had to cut out two studs and reframe the wall around the cubby. All this with minimal disruption to the other side of the wall (adjoining room). If you still plan to have a tiled cubbies, you will most likely want to centre them on the tile pattern so the stud locations and tile pattern may dictate the design. If at all possible, gut the shower area now so that the stud locations can be precisely ascertained and the plumbing and tile patterns properly planned.

You may need to move the toilet flange slightly to allow more space at the sink. Floor joist location will be a big factor there but they do make special offset flanges that will let you get closer to a joist than a regular flange. Some of the water saving toilets have considerably smaller tanks to give you a bit of room to maneuver a wheelchair. I replaced my toilet with an American Standard H2Option which has a narrower tank. It flushes much better than the old toilet did. Some of the first generation water saviing toilets didn't flush worth crap but they've made great improvements in the design. Some newer toilets are slightly taller than the old style so the transition from wheelchair to throne is not as bad. Mine is 29.5" high and that model is also available in 31" height. They also have other ADA compliant toilets. Consider a hand grab at the toilet too. Round front bowl is a little more space saving. http://www.americanstandard-us.com/toilets/h2option-siphonic-dual-flush-round-front-toilet Don't let the MSRP shock you. They are well discounted.

 

[begreen]

It's best to approach design with an open mind. Keep all ideas on the table and keep them coming. Some will work better than others. But leave the past design in the past. The future needs for this space have changed and should be the guiding criteria.

I need to head into town and start on some plumbing projects. But before I go, here is a for instance drawing. Note that this is just one possibility. The toilet has been moved to the tight sink location. The advantages are that a grab bar can be put on the wall to make it easier to get on and off of the toilet. The cold water plumbing is already there and it's not a big deal to move the toilet drain over a few feet. The sink area is now generous and allows easy access. There is an open shelving to the right to allow easy access. The shower area is generous and safe. A trench drain will prevent any water from going beyond this space.

 

[mgwmgw]

Goose lacks the software on his laptop to test using the drawing yet. We will work on that, but the drugs they give him are making it a little hard for him to concentrate sometimes.

In the mean time, I tried to read and understand the ADA specs, and as a result have decided that I am completely out of my depth. :ahhh: They seem to want a 5 foot turning radius which is nowhere near the kind of space we have, even assuming we got rid of closets. Then again I have used disabled bathrooms and some of them had nowhere near that kind of space either, so I assume I did not understand the ADA specs correctly.

Borrowing a chair makes no sense. I am serious plus sized and any wheelchair that would take me would be much wider than Goose's. I had been assuming that Goose's chair was 29 inches wide, and that kind of space we can pretty easily have, just.

So...I need help...with the bathroom design, so it'll be ready before the build team gets here.

I will ask the tile store to come and do a free estimate, but I suspect this is more than they would do also.

Mary-Anne

 

[BrotherBart]

What requires access modifications to a private residence to meet ADA specs?

 

[mgwmgw]

No law requires it.
Goose said ADA specified how accessible was accessible enough. He said the rules were there for a reason.
Code is often like that, so I had no basis to argue against it.
I know his chair is 29 inches wide. I do not know its turning radius, or how to determine how much turning is needed in a bathroom.
This is why I would have preferred if he had been able to do the design himself.

 

[Dune]

As far as the plumbing goes, I will bring a bunch of stock and pipe. Special trips are unavoidable, since I don't know what is there and I am not that great of a planner anyhow. I do have an account at F.W.Webb. I should be able to rip out the old and rough in the new in one day, then come back later to do the finnish. To be certain that that is the case, I will bring Bobby Bluefin, who will regale any willing ears with partialy true fishing tales and general derring do, while he fits pipes.

 

[BrotherBart]

No law requires it.
Goose said ADA specified how accessible was accessible enough. He said the rules were there for a reason.
Code is often like that, so I had no basis to argue against it.
I know his chair is 29 inches wide. I do not know its turning radius, or how to determine how much turning is needed in a bathroom.
This is why I would have preferred if he had been able to do the design himself.

Wheel center line to toes determines the turning radius. I just used the little brown haired girl's chair with me in it and it needs a five foot circle to turn three hundred and sixty degrees pivoting on center.

 

[Hunderliggur]

BeGreen hs the idea - gut the bathroom and put in what you need. You may be able to make it work without using the closet in Goose's new bedroom. Not as big as BG's original plan but still better than what is there. Plastic pipe s really cheap and fast so redoing the plumbing is not that bad. Is the ceiling in the basement below finished or open? As an added bonus there is a view outside from the toilet!

 

[tmhrrgn]

The ceiling below the basement is finished but it just bead board so it will be easy to remove.

 

[Dune]

The ceiling below the basement is finished but it just bead board so it will be easy to remove.

That's good to hear, it's definitely going to have to come down.

 

[begreen]

Goose lacks the software on his laptop to test using the drawing yet. We will work on that, but the drugs they give him are making it a little hard for him to concentrate sometimes.

In the mean time, I tried to read and understand the ADA specs, and as a result have decided that I am completely out of my depth. :ahhh: They seem to want a 5 foot turning radius which is nowhere near the kind of space we have, even assuming we got rid of closets. Then again I have used disabled bathrooms and some of them had nowhere near that kind of space either, so I assume I did not understand the ADA specs correctly.

Borrowing a chair makes no sense. I am serious plus sized and any wheelchair that would take me would be much wider than Goose's. I had been assuming that Goose's chair was 29 inches wide, and that kind of space we can pretty easily have, just.

So...I need help...with the bathroom design, so it'll be ready before the build team gets here.

I will ask the tile store to come and do a free estimate, but I suspect this is more than they would do also.

Mary-Anne

Read the North Carolina documents I posted today. They are much more understandable and do-it-yourself friendly. Govt. specs are a little over the top.

I'm hoping that Goose's chair is a bit narrower, more like 24-26". If it's 29" that is a wide one and will require 36" door or there will be a lot of knuckle scraping. You need to add 3" to each side of the wheel of the chair to allow for hand clearance. For a 29" chair that equals 35". Do check, the average chair width is 24-26" from what I've read.

 

[tmhrrgn]

Let's get this question out of the way. Anyone who is planning on being at the work days have any experience laying tile down and can do the job start to finish? We need to know this because pros do not like walking into half finished jobs and told to complete it due to the fact that they do not want to inherit someone's screw-up

Tim

 

[mgwmgw]

Goose is having trouble uploading the pictures that Tim took, so I took some more pictures and here they are.
These are pictures of the bathroom and of the front door where the ramp or lift will be.

http://s944.photobucket.com/albums/ad287/mgwmgw/House/

 

[begreen]

At this point actual measurements of the door openings and distances from nearest obstacles would be very helpful.

 

[mgwmgw]

Here are some rough measurements.
I would want someone to check these again before cutting anything.

Inside measurement of bathroom door with frame 29.5"
Width of bathroom across from closet 38"
Distance from inside of bathroom door to corner by shower 33.75"
Distance from corner by shower to end of toilet 31"
Distance from side of toilet to far wall of shower 39.5"
Distance from side of toilet to edge of sink counter 38"

I already posted the dimensions of the sink counter.

There is currently a towel rack sticking out to the left of the door,
but we can remove it if it is a problem.

There is currently a set of shelves between the toilet and the corner,
and I know we will need to move those to another room.

 

[Hunderliggur]

Wherever possible, put in 36 inch doors. You will not regret it. I built my house with 36 inch interior doors "just in case". It also make it a lot easier to move furniture.

 

[begreen]

Thanks Mary-Anne. I will work with these dimensions to look at options.

The bathroom door will need to be widened. Given that fact, it should be replaced with a 34-36" wide door. How wide is the front entry door? How wide are the two office doors downstairs? I am guessing that in the short term one of these will need to serve as a bedroom. If so, access will be critical.

 

[mgwmgw]

We have discussed replacing the bathroom door with a "pocket door". I do not know how practical that will be.

 

[mgwmgw]

We need some "counter intelligence".
I have bought a sink
http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/113501_4.pdf
which is intended to stick out of the front of a counter.
So we want and need a counter.
One option is to make the counter out of plywood and stick formica to it.
Another possibility is to get corian or something thicker,
or to get ready-made counter with something stuck to it,
which Goose says is available at Lowes and Home Depot
but I cannot find it.

I think plywood would be cheapest
and likely most bothersome to make.

Thoughts?

Mary-Anne

 

[Hunderliggur]

Pocket Door - Nice for doors that are normally open. It requires a wall opening twice the width of the door which means a header above the door about 6 feet wide. The pocket gets sheetrock over it so the "finished" door is your regular size. If it is just the two of you and Goose is not normally going to close the door it would possible make his access easier. It will also buy you about 3 inches from the door opened up against the wall.

Counter: I think you could do something either with Formica or with tile. Since you are tiling anyway consider tile over a SOLID wood base. Make the"frame" out of 2x along the wall and the front, and finish the front with a pice of 1x applied over the 2x (if a 2x4 frame then a 1x6 front piece). Use 3/4 plywood (not particle board or OSB) for the deck. Consult with your tile Gurus on weather they want cement board on top of the plywood. The problem with plywood on the front is finishing the edges. For your size and space I think custom built with tile surface would be easiest to fit correctly and would look nice. Make sure you get the Kohler template to create the openings correctly.

 

[Gooserider]

Borrow or rent a wheelchair, sit in it and try to navigate in the bathroom. Also, you can make a paper cut out of a scaled wheelchair, including the turning radius needed, and roll it around the plan. I do this with graph paper and make scaled objects that I can move around. That way one can move the toilet, the wheelchair etc. Goose can also do this electronically in his CAD program if that is more efficient.

Here is the area I am concerned about:

OK good job on blowing up the relevant section - I would note that the toilet may be off an inch or two either way, but I don't think it would be a big problem. The wall on the sink side can't really be changed - that area with the X in it is the vertical stack area where the stack for the water heater, the stink pipe, and the upper floor network all go up - changing it would be a MAJOR challenge.... However I don't think it would be a big problem based on the transfers they have been making me do here in Rehab - I pull in and turn left to end up under the sink, or angle right to end up angling up to the toilet, transfer onto the toilet for that task, then continue on across into the tub for a shower, or go across in front of the toilet.

The bathroom door I think will do if we replace the hinges with the offset style that gets the door out of the frame when opening it.

In terms of toilet selection, I don't want to get overly graphic, but bowel program actually calls for an elevated seat with an opening to one side, as one must have enough space between the sitting surface and the bowl to be able to insert a suppository and "manually stimulate" certain areas (I literally must do what is suggested by a certain hand gesture... :sick: ) thus a standard height bowl is preferable,

IMHO the next design proposal, putting the toilet where the sink is would be MUCH WORSE for access to the toilet and not really help for the sink or shower, not to mention making the shower area smaller, and increasing the number of transfers to and from the chair needed... I didn't have dimensions, but I did a rough sketch of the existing layout for some of the rehab folks, and they didn't think it was that bad...

In terms of chair sizing, I beleive they said I had 18" in the seat width - plus the wheels and push rims - I think I can get through a 29" door pretty easily, especially if it has offset hinges to get the open door out of the frame width (and I think I even have a couple sets of the offset hinges on hand)

I think all the inside doors are the same size, or at least that is my somewhat fuzzy recollection from when I was making the drawing posted earlier.

I don't like pocket doors, for a number of reasons. but I need to go right now as I have nurses that want to put me to bed...

Gooserider