Goose accessibility thread...

[Gooserider]

The 36" door panel will give the 34" needed for elbow access.
Access Standard Recommended:
The clear opening of a doorway should be at least 34”. This would require a minimum 3’-0” door.
Code Reference:
•Clear openings of doorways with swinging doors shall be measured between the face of door and stop, with the door open 90 degrees.(ANSI 404.2.3)
•When a passage exceeds 24” in depth, the minimum clear opening increases to 36”. (ANSI A 117.1 404)

OK, assuming we are held to that spec, then we certainly will need to open up several doorways, though we can gain some on that door clearance by using "offset" hinges - they aren't necessarily pretty, but they do cause a door to open flush with the frame at 90° - which gains you about 2" over a standard hinge.

We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of 'tunnel' leading into it that isn't much wider than the door... (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney....

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of ‘tunnel’ leading into it that isn’t much wider than the door… (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney….

I saw that on the plan and was wondering what the exact width of the hallway was. Most entry doors are a bit larger than interior doors. Hopefully that door is already 34-36'? If not, there's always vaseline (j/k).

 

[Hunderliggur]

I know I won't be there to help, but try to get the 36" doors if you can. You will not regret it and if you move it may make the house feel roomier. If you are temporarily puting the lift in front I would suggest making a landing from the front door threshold to the lift and eliminating a ramp on the porch by the laundry. They you would have just a roll, lift, and roll. If later you can raise the laundry floor you could then move the lift into the garage. Just some more of my 2 cents.

 

[fbelec]

(broken link removed to http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/zip/1693755881.html)

 

[fbelec]

(broken link removed to http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/zip/1693699298.html)

 

[mgwmgw]

Can we fit the existing king sized Select Comfort bed in the downstairs bedroom? I think so.
Tim took measurements and Goose was unsure, so I am checking.
What if we replaced the foundation (box spring equivalent) that Goose made with a new foundation bought from Select Comfort? Do we need to?
If I am calculating this right, yes it will fit, and no, we do not need to replace the foundation.

The room in question is 11' square. 11' = 132".

If we buy a new foundation
it is 8" tall. We can put it on the floor or on a bed frame. I would opt for the floor.
It is 79" long. It uses 2 twin foundations. 37.5" x 2 wide = 75"
It costs $449.99 + either $59.99 if we assemble or $159.99 if they assemble.
We can afford that if we must.

They have an adjustable foundation which can raise head or feet but not the whole bed
$1549 + tax x 2 including delivery. That is too much money for this, I think.

Things are delivered in 7-10 business days, which could be a timing problem.
We have a p5000 mattress similar to the current p5.

We will put the head of the bed against the wall, so with a new foundation, 132" - 79" = 53" which is plenty.

If we centered the bed in the room, that gives 28.5" off each side, That is not enough.
If we shoved the bed completely into a corner, that is plenty.
Mary-Anne can get through a 20" space. 132" - 75" - 20" = 37" which is enough.

The foundation Goose made is about 77" wide with drawers closed by 98.5" long.
This gives us 33.5" off the end, which is enough. Not great, but enough.
This gives us a total of 55" on both sides.
Allowing 20" on Mary-Anne's side that gives
35" on Goose's side, which is enough.
Having room on Mary-Anne's side also means we can open the drawers at least a little.

So, if I am calculating this right, if Goose really only requires 29" we can get by with the bed we have.
It won't be quite 36", which would be ideal, but it will suffice. So, can we get away with less than 36"?

The foundation that Goose made has the advantage that it has a shelf where the bed head would be, which is useful for things like the alarm clock. If we bought a foundation, we would not have that shelf. I am sure we can find some furniture to put next to the bed, if we do not already have it, so that problem can be solved either way.

 

[begreen]

It will be very tight, but possible. Have the crew completely empty the room. Then take some masking tape and tape an outline of the bed, maybe put a cardboard box inside each corner. Then, if Goose is there, have him run the wheelchair around the space. It will be tight, but if he can negotiate the turn from the end of the bed to the side it may work. If not, I would consider getting a queen size bed. But get a simple frame to elevate it so that it is very close the the height of the wheel chair seat so that it is easy to go from one to the other.

If you need to go to a smaller queen bed, Ikea has some inexpensive bed frames to look at. Costco often has great prices on quality queen mattresses (locally, not sure about in your area).
http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/categories/departments/bedroom/16284/ (don't forget the slats).

 

[LLigetfa]

Matresses being somewhat flexible, are a lot easier to move through tight spaces. A one-piece rigid box spring on the other hand might not go around corners. We have a split (two-piece) box spring for that very reason. When we built our house, we moved in the bedroom furniture before I finished the stair details so we might have to leave some of the furniture or bust it up to get it out when we sell/move.

 

[Gooserider]

We MAY have a problem at the front door however, as there is a sort of ‘tunnel’ leading into it that isn’t much wider than the door… (And would be a challenge to move on both sides because of structural issues - one wall is the laundry room, the other is the fireplace chimney….

I saw that on the plan and was wondering what the exact width of the hallway was. Most entry doors are a bit larger than interior doors. Hopefully that door is already 34-36'? If not, there's always vaseline (j/k).

According to QCAD which I just got installed on this machine, the hallway from the front steps to the front door is 41" wide at both ends. The front door iself is 36" so there should be no problem on that end...

If we do something at the laundry room, the entrance from the laundry room into the rest of the house is also 36", but the door from the garage into the laundry room is only 32"

Moving to the bathroom - The existing door into the bathroom is 30", and the area in front of the linen closet is already 37" so we might not need to take a lot of stuff off the closet to open things up. The drawing shows only about 30" from the front of the toilet to the linen closet, which is tight, but when I was making the drawing I didn't think this would be a critical dimension so I just used a canned image from the QCAD parts library, which I put in approximately the right place. IOW, the walls are as right as I could make them but the fixtures might not be as close...

The hall outside the bathroom is just shy of 38" wide, but the two doors for the bedrooms are only about 30" - tight but doable (barely)

In terms of the bed - there are TWO separate issues... The floor space "footprint" of the bed, which can probably be dealt with, (possibly by opening up the closet?) and the HEIGHT of the bed which is what I need to worry about when attempting to transfer in and out of the bed...

The difficulty of doing a transfer is very much a function of the height difference between the two surfaces. For various reasons, the bed that I built has a mattress height of 32-34", which is very tall. The wheel chair height is somewhat variable but probably will be closer to the order of 20-24"... I asked the folks in the PT/OT department about this, and they said it would make for a VERY difficult transfer, especially since I would not be able to put my feet on the ground for the stabilization that gives me... As a point of reference, this morning I was using a different matt for some of the stretching and such than I've been using - the new matt was about 2-3" higher than the usual one, and the transfers (which I'm admittedly new at) were MUCH harder...

They had a strong reccomendation for getting a standard height bed.... One option might be to get a hospital type bed, and put it in the living room - this would obviously not be so good for entertaining and such, and means that Mary-Anne and I couldn't sleep together, but would mean that we wouldn't need to move her office, and a hospital bed has other advantages, such as adjustable height and being able to change the angles on it and such...

Gooserider

 

[Hunderliggur]

I think you (and M-A) would be happier with a proper height bed. You could have someone make a basic box foundation out of 2X with plywood top to get the height where you want it. You do not need a "foundation" per se just a level solid surface for the bed. You may want to consider adding a reinforced "bar" above the bed so you can have a lifting bar (probably like you have now) to help you transfer and adjust. You will need someone to tie into the floor joists above for a solid and safe installation. Save the cool foundation you have now because you may be able to use it when you get more abilities.

 

[Gooserider]

Hard to tell from CL postings w/o other data, but the one in Quincy is a fair haul to get, and doesn't sound as good as the one in metro-west (though he doesn't say where it's at) Sounds like the Metrowest one would at least have what is needed to get us from the front door out to the first turn...... Going from there down to the driveway should be pretty easy and straightforward...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

I think you (and M-A) would be happier with a proper height bed. You could have someone make a basic box foundation out of 2X with plywood top to get the height where you want it. You do not need a "foundation" per se just a level solid surface for the bed. You may want to consider adding a reinforced "bar" above the bed so you can have a lifting bar (probably like you have now) to help you transfer and adjust. You will need someone to tie into the floor joists above for a solid and safe installation. Save the cool foundation you have now because you may be able to use it when you get more abilities.

I agree the proper height is a critical factor, as do the PT folks here at the Rehab. I am also concerned about having enough space for Mary-Anne to be able to get in and out of the bed safely, and have enough room to get sheets tucked in and the like when making up the bed, though she seems to feel this won't be a problem. I wouldn't be worried about getting a proper "foundation" if I were there to scrounge or build something, but given the situation, it seems that going the route of getting the Select Comfort box foundation is the lowest hassle approach, and isn't that expensive to do...

I DON'T have a "trapeze" over the bed here at the rehab, and they say they tend to recommend against them, as they say that many patients in the past have misused them and hurt themselves significantly. Instead, they focus heavily on teaching techniques that don't rely on overhead support, or at least that is the approach they use for people w/ my level of injury. (The programs are very highly customized to fit each patient)

Saving the bed that I made is one of the things I'm suggesting, with probably the best approach being to stack the two sections, after rotating one of them so as to make what amounts to a super-sized chest of drawers....

Gooserider

 

[mgwmgw]

I have been trying to come up with a plan about what must be done. This is as far as I have gotten.

1. Main floor bathroom
1.1 Drawers under sink are carried to upstairs bathroom
1.2 Content of closet under sink is put into a box and transported up to under upstairs bathroom sink, where there is room and the box is unpacked.
1.3 Closet and sink are removed and discarded.
1.4 New counter is installed. It is covered with butter rum colored formica laminate, which Home Depot keeps in stock.
1.5 Kohler sink is installed in the counter.
1.6 Bathtub and its attached surround are removed and discarded.
1.7 Moldy wall behind bathtub is replaced with something that does not mind getting wet.
1.8 We may decide to do something to improve the fan above the shower so the mold does not return.
1.9 I have been advised that one should shave the joists under and accessible shower to make it lower and make sure the water drains.
1.10 Bottom of new shower should be lined with something to contain the water. I am advised that material is better than a copper pan.
1.11 We do not plan to change the shower head. We will need a lower hook to hang the shower where Arthur/Goose can reach it.
1.12 The new shower should have plywood or similar behind the shower surround so we can screw in wire shelves and grab bars there later.
1.13 The free standing towel rack goes to the upstairs bathroom.
1.14 The towel rack on the wall needs to be replaced. Room for 2 large towels would be nice. This should be higher than the wheelchair but low enough that Goose can reach.
1.15 Where not covered with shower surround, the wall above the new shower will be painted with mildew proof paint, in white. Use the same for nearby ceiling. Oconnor carries it.
1.16 We want to make the bathroom door wider. Is 32 inches with an offset hinge enough? Can we do this and leave the closet intact? Can we remove just the front of the closet?

2. Hallway outside main bathroom
2.1 The tall white bookcase will be moved into the new bedroom into the corner opposite the door, not facing the door.
2.2 The brown bookcase will be moved against the staircase in the living room where the green chair is now.
2.3 We want to make the doors into Goose's office and the new bedroom wider. Is 32 inches enough? Is that possible? What are the steps? Where do we get a door? What kind of doorway?

3. Living Room
3.1 The wood cart should go into the woodshed
3.2 The green chair should be moved where the wood cart is now, in front of the window.
3.3 The TV and all on its cart are moved upstairs.
3.4 All boxes are moved into the attic, but should be stacked no more than two deep, because sometimes they crush. Mary-Anne should label all boxes that don't have labels before they are moved.

4. Kitchen
4.1 All computers and stuff at top of basement stairs are taken down to basement. Assume basement floor can be wet so anything that would mind should not be put onto the floor in the basement.
4.2 All containers of empty wine bottles in the kitchen are carried into the basement. If space is short, it may be assumed that empty bottles do not mind getting wet.
4.3 Oval table is rotated 90 degrees and moved towards the stairs so Arthur/Goose can reach the microwave.

5. New (and old) bedroom
5.1 All furniture from the new bedroom except the tall white bookshelf will be carried upstairs. This may involve stacking the furniture to make it fit.
5.2 The long tan desk with the computers on it will be located by the upstairs window.
5.3 On Saturday midday, the new foundation for the new bed will be fetched by Peter, Naha, and Larry. We must not disassemble the old bed until we have the new bed.
5.4 The white bookshelf in the new bedroom will be put against the wall with the snow picture upon it, next to the white bookshelf from the hall.
5.5 The head of the new bed will be assembled next to the two bookshelves along the wall. The new bed should be about 20 inches from the wall on the side opposite the door.
5.6 The mattress from the old bed will be transported onto the new bed. We will need to drill some holes to make this work.
5.7 The two halves of the old bed will be stacked one on another, against the short wall in the old bedroom.

 

[Gooserider]

Looks pretty good to me, I will assume that a lot of this stuff can either be "parallel processed" and or isn't that fussy about sequencing, though it is a question of what rooms get handled first - but that should be pretty obvious. I will add any other comments in and try to bold them as I see a need. In all cases where stuff is being moved, it does seem reasonable to me that consideration should be given to moving things to trash rather than other places if appropriate, but hopefully M-A will be working on this already....

I have been trying to come up with a plan about what must be done. This is as far as I have gotten.

1. Main floor bathroom
1.1 Drawers under sink are carried to upstairs bathroom
1.2 Content of closet under sink is put into a box and transported up to under upstairs bathroom sink, where there is room and the box is unpacked.
1.3 Closet and sink are removed and discarded. Material salvage might be considered where it is appropriate - i.e. for blocking during later construction, etc.
1.4 New counter is installed. It is covered with butter rum colored formica laminate, which Home Depot keeps in stock.
1.5 Kohler sink is installed in the counter.
1.6 Bathtub and its attached surround are removed and discarded.
1.7 Moldy wall behind bathtub is replaced with something that does not mind getting wet. Hardi-board, or equivalent I presume?
1.8 We may decide to do something to improve the fan above the shower so the mold does not return.Unit should definitely be cleaned while we have access, also look at replacing flex-duct with rigid duct piping of the right size (should be cheap @ HD / O'Connors, etc...)
1.9 I have been advised that one should shave the joists under and accessible shower to make it lower and make sure the water drains.
1.10 Bottom of new shower should be lined with something to contain the water. I am advised that material is better than a copper pan.yes, IIRC it's called KERDI, and it's a membrane type material, very much of a standard, and which should behind ALL the shower surfaces if going with tile and not "Bathfitter" or equivalent type of liner setup.
1.11 We do not plan to change the shower head. We will need a lower hook to hang the shower where Arthur/Goose can reach it. Agreed, shower and all controls are in reasonable shape, and suitable for the application, however I would not consider it objectionable to change them if that is easiest way to get suitable hardware (it may be hard to get a replacement hook, and / or the hose may need to be made longer. This is also something that could be done "post build" if need be.
1.12 The new shower should have plywood or similar behind the shower surround so we can screw in wire shelves and grab bars there later. Be sure to document where any such is located, also consider blocking instead of / in addition to the plywood in locations where we might be putting in shower seats and / or other high load attachments
1.13 The free standing towel rack goes to the upstairs bathroom.
1.14 The towel rack on the wall needs to be replaced. Room for 2 large towels would be nice. This should be higher than the wheelchair but low enough that Goose can reach. Should be reachable from the shower
1.15 Where not covered with shower surround, the wall above the new shower will be painted with mildew proof paint, in white. Use the same for nearby ceiling. Oconnor carries it.
1.16 We want to make the bathroom door wider. Is 32 inches with an offset hinge enough? Can we do this and leave the closet intact? Can we remove just the front of the closet? Per the book, 30" is the minimum width for any place a wheelchair needs to go (with wider minimums in lots of spaces) There hasn't been a mention of offset hinges, but they were saying a 36" is the reccomended minimum - in 'door nomenclature' they said this is a "3068" door, or 3' wide, x 6'8" tall. The next shorter door, the 2868 (2'8" (32") wide x 6'8" tall only gives a 29.5" opening which doesn't quite get it, though we probably could get away with it. If we did offset hinges, I think that should also work...

2. Hallway outside main bathroom
2.1 The tall white bookcase will be moved into the new bedroom into the corner opposite the door, not facing the door.
2.2 The brown bookcase will be moved against the staircase in the living room where the green chair is now.
2.3 We want to make the doors into Goose's office and the new bedroom wider. Is 32 inches enough? Is that possible? What are the steps? Where do we get a door? What kind of doorway? See discussion above about door widths... we can do short term fixing just by removing the existing doors and casings which would make the door opening wide enough. To go beyond that will require replacing the door frame and door, which starts by adjusting the width of the rough door opening (need to see what is there already) to fit the new door, and mounting the new casing and door... Pre-hung interior doors and casings are standard stock items that should be readily available at Slowes or Home Despot.

To be continued...

 

[Gooserider]

3. Living Room
3.1 The wood cart should go into the woodshed
3.2 The green chair should be moved where the wood cart is now, in front of the window.
3.3 The TV and all on its cart are moved upstairs.
3.4 All boxes are moved into the attic, but should be stacked no more than two deep, because sometimes they crush. Mary-Anne should label all boxes that don't have labels before they are moved.

4. Kitchen
4.1 All computers and stuff at top of basement stairs are taken down to basement. Assume basement floor can be wet so anything that would mind should not be put onto the floor in the basement.Note that wetness is not normally a problem down there
4.2 All containers of empty wine bottles in the kitchen are carried into the basement. If space is short, it may be assumed that empty bottles do not mind getting wet.
4.3 Oval table is rotated 90 degrees and moved towards the stairs so Arthur/Goose can reach the microwave.Stuff on/under both tables should be sorted and moved to basement, tool storage, trash, etc as appropriate. Might want to consider putting some sort of gate across top of stairs to prevent me from accidentally backing down w/ chair...

5. New (and old) bedroom
5.1 All furniture from the new bedroom except the tall white bookshelf will be carried upstairs. This may involve stacking the furniture to make it fit.
5.2 The long tan desk with the computers on it will be located by the upstairs window.
5.3 On Saturday midday, the new foundation for the new bed will be fetched by Peter, Naha, and Larry. We must not disassemble the old bed until we have the new bed.
5.4 The white bookshelf in the new bedroom will be put against the wall with the snow picture upon it, next to the white bookshelf from the hall.
5.5 The head of the new bed will be assembled next to the two bookshelves along the wall. The new bed should be about 20 inches from the wall on the side opposite the door.
5.6 The mattress from the old bed will be transported onto the new bed. We will may need to drill some holes to make this work.small detail needed to hook up air pump for mattress also may put in a couple UPS units for clock, CPAP, etc.
5.7 The two halves of the old bed will be stacked one on another, against the short wall in the old bedroom.

One half will need to be spun 180° to make the drawers accessible on the same side, may also need some cribbing to make all drawers openable - these units are HEAVY, strongly recomend removing the drawers (which are marked) to make load lighter. This is something that may want to happen early in process of arranging room as the units are also BIG...

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

You will definitely want to install solid 2x6 or 2x8 blocking any place a grab rail could possibly be installed. Plywood will not provide enough meat to screw into. FWIW, we used durock for tile backing in our shower. Best to ask the tile guy what he prefers.

 

[BrotherBart]

Don't forget these things. Lowe's has a better one that has a high and low section. That is what we have. The darn thing is invaluable because if not for it the brown haired girl would have to sleep in the bathtub. She isn't paralyzed but she can't get up from sitting down in a tub either. Has to pull her self up with the bar. A bar on the wall of the tub does squat for getting you out and into the chair.

(broken link removed to http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xh7/R-100000424/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

 

[mgwmgw]

This is the estimate from the tile person.
They mentioned wanting to "work with" the available plumber, something about the drain?
I have not arranged for the tile person to be here during the week-end.
I assumed we would put in tiles afterwards.
I hope that works out.
Tim seems to think we can save money using a vinyl shower surround.
I tentatively agree but am unsure how the division of responsibility works in that case.

 

[Flatbedford]

I was gonna ask what everybody thought about using a vinyl shower surround, or even installing one of those prefab ones to save time. I guess the prefab would not fit in the door, but there must be prefab-like options that are suitable for renovation installations.

 

[begreen]

Prefab can be bought in sections to fit through standard doors. There will still need to be a custom, sill-less showerpan. Actually, the estimate seems pretty reasonable compared with our costs out here. Even the sales tax is low compared to our's. I would expect a full tile unit will increase resale value, but it takes more time to install and more labor to keep the grout clean over the years.

 

[Gooserider]

Prefab can be bought in sections to fit through standard doors. There will still need to be a custom, sill-less showerpan. Actually, the estimate seems pretty reasonable compared with our costs out here. Even the sales tax is low compared to our's. I would expect a full tile unit will increase resale value, but it takes more time to install and more labor to keep the grout clean over the years.

Agreed on both counts, and I'd want to see Kerdi, Ditra, or equivalent under the tile as well, but... I think the tile would look better and hold up better than the vinyl setups, although the cleaning angle of it does sound like a bit of a problem as neither of us are big on housekeeping (understatement of the century.... :long: )

Tim is a big fan of "Bathfitters" so IF we can get a quote from them before the weekend, that might be an option - however we would presumably want to get explicit expectations from either Bath-Fitter or Mazmanian about just what they would like to see us do in regards to the drain, etc... IIRC, Mazmainian is open on Saturday for short hours and their boss installer is also one of the sales guys (It's a family business...) so it might well be possible to arrange for him to come out and do a quick look and advice session, perhaps in the afternoon when we've had time for the tub-ectomy, and start doing the rough-in. (I also note that going back to his estimate, he seems to like Hardibacker, as that is what he called out on the estimate sheet....

Based on what was done when we had them do the current tile floor, I would also expect they will want to have the toilet yanked before starting the job (BTW, for the purposes of the weekend, I will not need to have a functioning toilet, as I will either be taking care of what needs to be done before leaving the rehab, or using other equipment...)

Gooserider

 

[LLigetfa]

I believe you have more options with a KERDI shower system over a modular surround. It certainly is a lot more work and the work is specialized so finding volunteers would be tough. If I weren't so far away, I would volunteer.

Here are a few links:
(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)

 

[Hunderliggur]

The tile quote looks fair and looks like it covers all the bases. The cement base for the shower is standard approach. I did not see if they included the pan liner. Sometimes it is a plumber thing (since the drain goes over it) and sometimes it is the tile guys. Check. I think you would be happier with the tile. Make sure you seal the grout with grout sealer according to the directions. Ask the tile guys which product they recommend. You can always get one of those sill Scrubbing Bubbles shower cleaner things. It works with our 19 year old daughter!

 

[mgwmgw]

If it is okay with everyone, I would prefer to go with the tile.
I do plan to have one of those automatic shower cleaners.
I have already done the same in the toilet.

Someone, probably Dune, should call the tile shop on Friday and talk to them and make sure there are the correct expectations on what will be done by whom.

 

[begreen]

Coordinate the plumber with tile guys asap. They should provide the location and height specs for the drain. Ask what is their preferred brand to use with their shower pan system. You will need to have the proper floor drain fitting roughed in and it needs to be set to their spec. This is a critical component that must be correct.

As for the automatic shower cleaner, I think they may be designed for the more conventional setup with 4 walls to contain the spray.