Goose accessibility thread...

[begreen]

Welcome Tim. Thanks for logging in. Good to have you on board.

My understanding is a garage approach ramp that goes up 48" will require 48ft of 36" wide ramp + adequate landing spaces for the switchbacks. I suspect it will dominate the garage. (Is this a single or 2 car garage?) If the laundry room doorways are 30", this may be the more difficult plan. It may be faster to do the exterior ramp to the main door which hopefully is at least 32" wide. That will take care of the immediate need. Then, it could be covered for better winter accessibility. Of course this is assuming there aren't other complicating factors with a front entrance approach.

The key to any project is organization. This means having adequate materials and tools already at hand before the work starts. Crew tasks should be broken down into manageable chunks. Be sure to have folks with adequate skills on hand. That will likely mean someone with plumbing and electrical skills. And someone with tiling skills. Be sure to have realistic time estimates and not too many bodies on any specific task.

 

[Dune]

Tim, P.M. me when you are ready.

 

[tmhrrgn]

Dune
Thanks for the help I am thinking of doing this in a work party weekend as for the weekend it most likely be the weekend of the Apr.23 through the 25th considering that some of the things that need to be done needs a considerable amount of time to set. I am planning on getting measurements this Saturday. The 23rd works for me because I work every other weekend and that is my other weekend off for this month and looking at the time for goose to come home.

Tim

 

[Gooserider]

Well it is not working perfectly, but I have the new Linux machine sort of working now though I still need to do some more to it (like figure out why I'm having trouble getting Firefox to start on it, currently using Konqueror which I don't like as a browser)

Looks like Tim and co will be doing measurements and photos (Take as many as possible and post them) this weekend and planning can happen after that... I also would suggest doing a search through some of my past posts, I know I've posted a bunch of house photos from different angles at various times in the past in assorted threads... Those who are also members of Trouble-free pool, and some of the other sites that I'm also on might also find photos there (I use the same handle every where I go...)

Feel free to consolidate them or post links, etc.

Far as I can see from here, the two priority tasks are the bathroom redo, and the ramp to get me in. Of the two, I'd say the bathroom is the more time critical - a ramp can be built pretty fast if one isn't overly fussy about it (especially if doing the front door) but it will take time to allow tile and grout to dry and other such things to happen in the bathroom...

I did have a nice chat on the phone this evening w/ BeGreen, and he did point out that one of the things that might be important to look at is the pitch of the existing tile floor in the bathroom, as the entire floor really should have a pitch in the general direction of the tub drain or there will be future problems w/ the floor and walls from any water that gets out onto the main floor... If necessesary that may require junking the existing tiles, which I don't see as a huge problem if that is what it takes...

Gooserider

 

[woodsmaster]

Goose and I have discussed redoing the bathroom,
and I am not completely convinced it would need to be
redone before he gets here.

How long would a bathroom be impossible to use
while it is being reconstructed?

If we just have to complete the ramp or lift
before he gets home, that maximizes his ability
to discuss and supervise whatever else we do.
But he cannot live without a bathroom for long.

What happens for people with residences which
have only one bathroom?

Mary-Anne

I would say you need to count on the bath being down for a week. there is a lot of work and steps to remodeling a bath. They are small but time consuming and expensive. If you hire work done get time frame in the contract.
If you can get volunters try to orginize by trades best you can and it very well may take longer than a week. It is posibble to do in a couple days but not likely. The reality shows make it look easy. Wish I were closer to help.
Best wishes to both of you and hopefully a full recovery.

 

[begreen]

It was good talking with you today Goose. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person.

Here's a couple shots I got off of hearth.com threads. The first is a front view of the house. The second a back entry that's not ideal for access from a wheelchair due to various obstructions in the path.

 

[firefighterjake]

Goose and I have discussed redoing the bathroom,
and I am not completely convinced it would need to be
redone before he gets here.

How long would a bathroom be impossible to use
while it is being reconstructed?

If we just have to complete the ramp or lift
before he gets home, that maximizes his ability
to discuss and supervise whatever else we do.
But he cannot live without a bathroom for long.

What happens for people with residences which
have only one bathroom?

Mary-Anne

I would say you need to count on the bath being down for a week. there is a lot of work and steps to remodeling a bath. They are small but time consuming and expensive. If you hire work done get time frame in the contract.
If you can get volunters try to orginize by trades best you can and it very well may take longer than a week. It is posibble to do in a couple days but not likely. The reality shows make it look easy. Wish I were closer to help.
Best wishes to both of you and hopefully a full recovery.

I'm thinking you should be able to remodel that entire bathroom in about 30 minutes . . . and that's including the three 3-minute bathroom/snack breaks in that half hour.

 

[kenny chaos]

Could it be the famous Professor Tim Harrigan by any chance?

 

[mgwmgw]

No, Tim is not a professor.
He works for a yogurt factory
and teaches karate.

 

[Jags]

No, Tim is not a professor.
He works for a yogurt factory
and teaches karate.

....and is obviously a pretty good egg.

 

[mgwmgw]

As you say,
Tim is a good egg,
and he is also an excellent cook.

 

[webbie]

Although my knowledge of accessibility issues is limited, I can offer the following to the conversation:
Hearth.com (me and I) insist on buying every pizza, soda, bottle of juice, sandwich and beer for any volunteer effort which may be forthcoming.

I hereby assign Tim, since he is the cook, to coordinate that part when and if these union dudes or other hearth.com members head that way.

Tim, PM me when something get's planned - or just spend up and send me the total afterwards.

Beer is only for after the power tools are put away. Maybe Goose can be talked out of one of his vintage bottles too!

 

[leaddog]

I've been thinking about your getting in and out of the house and wonder if you could do something like this. My son had an elevator in his house that we removed. It was a very simple thing. It was run with a Budget 1 ton chain fall. It had the elect hooked up with sw. etc but you could run it with the three button box. It was a cage that was suported in the corners with channel iron with cam rollors to keep it steady. It wouldn't take up much room in the garage, out of the weather, and quite simple to build. It would be safe as those chain falls lock and only move if you push the bottons. they have a fast and very slow speed. I wish I hadn't sold it as I would have donated it but if you go that way maybe someone has one. A metal cage could be welded up quite easily. Just an idea.
leaddog

 

[mgwmgw]

I love the idea of an elevator. I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made. About $30,000. There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.

If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.

We have natural gas in the house, and could install a natural gas powered generator without having to worry about storing fuel, but that would cost extra.

So an elevator would be good, but ramps would be much less expensive. I verified this cost difference with Goose's case manager.

Tim found an open platform lift for $4000, so if we have enough distance in the laundry area to get a ramp from the garage to the living room, then replacing the garage stairs with a lift might be possible. While power failures would still be a problem, an open platform would allow for an easier rescue. I guess Goose would want to keep a cell phone on his person, which is likely a good idea anyway.

While Tim is an excellent cook, I am more familiar with the food that is available locally, since Tim lives across the state line some distance away. Tim knows more about construction than I do. Especially, his family created a ramp for his father some years ago, out of wood and with great success. I would want to make use of whatever they learned from that.

So I would prefer that Tim concentrate on construction matters than food. When we have an idea of how many pizzas we need, I can discuss with Web what that food plan should be. My favorite local pizza source will deliver if that is an issue, and gives discounts for buying larger quantities. I am glad Web mentioned drinks. I had not thought about that. I am guessing that cold water is best while folks work, and choice of beer, soda or sport drink afterward.

I have discovered that F.W. Webb has an accessible bathroom showroom in Methuen MA, which is not far from here. While that may or may not be the cheapest source, they might be more likely to have things in stock. Tim used to work at Home Depot, and he checked there and found out that accessible fixtures would need to be ordered and take a week or so to get. There are also Lowes stores not far from here. Feedback on plumbing sources would be useful.

 

[begreen]

I would think a wall hung sink would work well for wheelchair access. If not available at local plumbing supplies, I wonder about used fixtures in the more urban areas close by?

 

[kenny chaos]

Mary Ann mentioned Gooze carrying a cellphone.
The medical alert phone thingys where you wear a pendant work well.
Yes, another cost, but it's just an idea.
My folks had one and they kept the base unit in a central location and when they hit the button on their pendant, someone would answer and
ask what they needed and the folks could request a call to one of their children or whatever they needed
instead of every prearranged number being called. (not to be used for pizza delivery)
It was real slick. It cost about $30/month.

 

[mgwmgw]

Goose currently has a bicycle water bottle clamped to his wheelchair.
I would not be surprised if it wanted his cell phone attached
in the same way. I am not sure how he would feel about
something around his neck.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Mary-Anne, do not hesitate to ask for some discounts at Lowe's and Home Depot and any other place you shop for material. Be sure to tell them what the project is too as they may give even bigger discounts than you suspect. Good luck.

 

[leaddog]

I love the idea of an elevator. I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made. About $30,000. There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.

If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.

We have natural gas in the house, and could install a natural gas powered generator without having to worry about storing fuel, but that would cost extra.

So an elevator would be good, but ramps would be much less expensive. I verified this cost difference with Goose's case manager.

Tim found an open platform lift for $4000, so if we have enough distance in the laundry area to get a ramp from the garage to the living room, then replacing the garage stairs with a lift might be possible. While power failures would still be a problem, an open platform would allow for an easier rescue. I guess Goose would want to keep a cell phone on his person, which is likely a good idea anyway.

.

If there is someone that is local that is handy with welding I think a elevator could be fab'd up farily resonable. It could be an open cage and lifted with a Budget chain fall or simulor. The big factor is how much head room you have above. The chainfall doesn't need much room but you need room to raise and lower and have enough head room. You could power it with a invertor in case of a elect failure but a gen would be a better choice. The chainfall controls are just a push botton box with four bottons. up, jog, down jog so you can stop it right were you want it. They are used in alot of machine shops and there might even be a co. that would donate one. A hyd. lift is also a posibility but that also depends on how high you have to lift. Check with some truck repair and salvage shops as they might have some that they have taken off delivery trucks. Those run 12v or 24v so it would be easy to run in case of a power failure.
leaddog

 

[NWfuel]

I love the idea of an elevator. I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made. About $30,000. There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.

If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.

We have natural gas in the house, and could install a natural gas powered generator without having to worry about storing fuel, but that would cost extra.

So an elevator would be good, but ramps would be much less expensive. I verified this cost difference with Goose's case manager.

Tim found an open platform lift for $4000, so if we have enough distance in the laundry area to get a ramp from the garage to the living room, then replacing the garage stairs with a lift might be possible. While power failures would still be a problem, an open platform would allow for an easier rescue. I guess Goose would want to keep a cell phone on his person, which is likely a good idea anyway.

If there is someone that is local that is handy with welding I think a elevator could be fab'd up farily resonable. It could be an open cage and lifted with a Budget chain fall or simulor. The big factor is how much head room you have above. The chainfall doesn't need much room but you need room to raise and lower and have enough head room. You could power it with a invertor in case of a elect failure but a gen would be a better choice. The chainfall controls are just a push botton box with four bottons. up, jog, down jog so you can stop it right were you want it. They are used in alot of machine shops and there might even be a co. that would donate one. A hyd. lift is also a posibility but that also depends on how high you have to lift. Check with some truck repair and salvage shops as they might have some that they have taken off delivery trucks. Those run 12v or 24v so it would be easy to run in case of a power failure.

I was thinking the same thing. They are called Rail Lifts (5,000lb) There are also lift gates but would require a pit to install into for level entry. The Rail lift would mount to the wall and floor with 2 posts and a cage could be welded to it. Check with Penske truck rental or similar company. They are selling the whole trucks right now for 10-15,000 dollars and might have a bad truck with a good lift. The older style lifts are 7' wide and 6' deep so plenty of room to turn on. They will have a 4' travel from floor up.
Thomas
leaddog

 

[kenny chaos]

I wonder what the town would think about a jury rigged elevator for a handicapped person.
If the town is not involved, I think it's a great idea.

 

[mgwmgw]

Goose is involved in town politics, and various committees he is on know about his accident. I have not filed any paperwork for permits yet. I feel that I should ask advice before I do that.

I have been to the F.W. Webb accessible showroom, and this is what I learned and have figured out, more from looking than because they told me.

One can put a sink recessed into a counter in the normal way. That is what we have.
One can have the sink stick out of the front of the counter.
One can have a flatter wider shallower sink sit mostly on top of the counter.
One can hang the back of the sink from a wall.
All of these options are available in accessible designs.

An advantage of hanging the sink is that it is easier to adjust the height from the floor.
Closets, even if they sit beside a knee space, tend to come in standard heights.
A disadvantage of a wall hung sink is that the sink is less strong if one leans upon it, and hanging sinks have been known to come loose if one leans upon the front of them. I have done this.
Some of the hanging sinks have extra wide edges around them, to use like counter space.


Most normal sinks are bowl shaped or shaped like an inverted round pyramid with the drain more or less in the middle.
One difference between accessible sinks and normal sinks is where the drain is located relative to the front edge of the sink. The drain is not in the middle, but further back.
If the drain is too far forward, then the wheelchair rider will hit it with their knees.

Goose tends to store a lot of stuff around the bathroom sink, more than I do, so I think he would prefer to retain a counter around the sink if possible. I am not especially fond of the counter surface we have, so if we need to replace it I will not be sorry. I expect he feels the same way.

Where the front edge of the sink needs to be relative to the rider depends on how long their arms are and how far they can lean forward.
Goose's arms are normal length, and he can move them in the normal way, but the degree of paraplegia offers challenges in his "trunk control" so he is learning to lean more than he could at the beginning.

Since we do not plan to change the kitchen right away, the bathroom sink may do double duty as a kitchen surface when Goose is cooking. This may mean we want a bigger sink than otherwise. Also, we will be losing the bathtub, so having a big sink gives us a place to wash big things in, which is generally a good idea. Thus, my inclination is to get a big sink that sticks out of the front of the counter, and to put narrow legs of some kind either side of the knee space and not rely only on the wall to hold up the sink.

Prices of sinks at F.W. Webb range from small number of hundreds to over $1000. I plan to choose an option less than $1000, and I think we can find one.

Our bathroom fixtures are a shade of green which I do not believe that we can match. The toilet seat has been white for years and that looks okay, and some shelves are white, so a white sink or a stainless steel sink should look sufficient from a color match point of view. The sinks they displayed were almost all white.

 

[begreen]

I love the idea of an elevator. I looked into the price some days ago and they are not cheap if we buy them ready made. About $30,000. There is a location where an elevator would make sense if anyone thinks that they can make one.

If the elevator is powered by electricity, we would need a solution of what to do if power failed, which it does every other year or so here, not typically for long enough for the freezer to melt, but long enough that Goose would not want to be stuck in a box.

We have natural gas in the house, and could install a natural gas powered generator without having to worry about storing fuel, but that would cost extra.

So an elevator would be good, but ramps would be much less expensive. I verified this cost difference with Goose's case manager.

Tim found an open platform lift for $4000, so if we have enough distance in the laundry area to get a ramp from the garage to the living room, then replacing the garage stairs with a lift might be possible. While power failures would still be a problem, an open platform would allow for an easier rescue. I guess Goose would want to keep a cell phone on his person, which is likely a good idea anyway.

If there is someone that is local that is handy with welding I think a elevator could be fab'd up farily resonable. It could be an open cage and lifted with a Budget chain fall or simulor. The big factor is how much head room you have above. The chainfall doesn't need much room but you need room to raise and lower and have enough head room. You could power it with a invertor in case of a elect failure but a gen would be a better choice. The chainfall controls are just a push botton box with four bottons. up, jog, down jog so you can stop it right were you want it. They are used in alot of machine shops and there might even be a co. that would donate one. A hyd. lift is also a posibility but that also depends on how high you have to lift. Check with some truck repair and salvage shops as they might have some that they have taken off delivery trucks. Those run 12v or 24v so it would be easy to run in case of a power failure.

I was thinking the same thing. They are called Rail Lifts (5,000lb) There are also lift gates but would require a pit to install into for level entry. The Rail lift would mount to the wall and floor with 2 posts and a cage could be welded to it. Check with Penske truck rental or similar company. They are selling the whole trucks right now for 10-15,000 dollars and might have a bad truck with a good lift. The older style lifts are 7' wide and 6' deep so plenty of room to turn on. They will have a 4' travel from floor up.
Thomas
leaddog

Yes, I was wondering about a modified electric appliance lift. If it was bolted down and had a bit larger stage added to it with a safety rim on it, then Goose could run the control from the lift. It would be battery operated and therefore able to work during and outage.

http://industrial-equipment.badgerie.com/trucks.html#

Maybe not, these are expensive and AC powered. But a modified manual appliance lift maybe?

 

[mgwmgw]

Tim will be measuring the heights of things, but let me see if I can describe how many levels this house has.
Ignoring attic spaces it has, lowest first:
basement rooms and half bath and circuit breaker box level- below ground
ground/garage level (a second circuit breaker box at this level)
laundry room higher than garage
living room, kitchen, 2 offices (1 will become a bedroom), full bath
master bedroom suite (which will become an office) with full bath

The most likely choices for getting into the house would be
1. ground level to living room level by way of the front door with a ramp mostly outdoors
2. garage level to laundry room by way of one doorway, and then laundry room level to living room, by way of second doorway, using ramps and/or lifts entirely indoors.
3. raise the floor of the laundry room to be even with the living room, and then put a lift into the garage to get up to that level, not sure if the laundry room ceiling is high enough to do this.

The laundry room is long and narrow, but I suspect that it is not long enough to supply one foot per inch of rise to put a ramp going through it to get from the laundry room level to the living room level

 

[LLigetfa]

I was thinking of an automotive style wheelchair lift for the garage and laundry rooms. They are designed to run on 12V battery so a power failure would not be a problem.