Going off grid

[peakbagger]

Take this for what its worth. Its pretty easy to convey technical info over a forum. Its real hard to give advice over an internet forum compared to face to face.IMO we are getting into the advice territory.

It does look like you are looking for excuses to go off grid. That is your prerogative, just realize that you are taking on a major long term effort that is going to have long term issues that far exceed the hassles associated with the grid. There is a term that is applicable that you are effectively "cutting off your nose off to spite you face". You have described that you have some medical issues associated with your service and it sounds like you live in remote area with your wife without a lot of support net. I don't wish it on you but it could put you in situation were you are temporarily unable to do the things that have to be done to keep your micro grid up and running. Sure you can train your spouse but if she it tied up nursing you and keeping the rest of the homestead running, keeping the grid up is just one more thing to worry about. The vast majority of new off gird system owners end up "murdering" their batteries by neglect and its real easy to consistently over discharge the bank because other priorities come up and then in about a year or two they discover they are running the generator close to full time as the batteries will not take a charge. I have known several folks who have put in seasonal off grid systems and every one of them have killed their first set of batteries. One guy worked for a heavy equipment firm and got used batteries for free so he did not mind except for lugging around a couple hundred pounds of batteries every 2 or 3 years. I also met several off gird year rounders in the Northeast Kingdom area of VT who are year rounders because there was no grid. Across the board they all gladly hooked up to the grid when it was available or sold the house and moved to where there was grid.

An easement is not an evil thing, all it does is give the utility the right to access and maintain their equipment. If you want to maintain a zone of privacy that no one can enter without your permission, it is quite common to put a remote meter with a main breaker on pole some distance away from the house and then run conduit to the main panel. Barring someone digging it up or poor workmanship, once an underground cable is in place its there forever. There are limits to how long you can run the cable but I will let the pros comment. In this case the utility is only allowed to access the meter and the disconnect.

Note you are going to have lot more strangers visiting your home when you switch your dependence from electric to diesel or propane. Unlike the power company, the fuel services do not need an easement but they do have the right to not deliver if they don't like your driveway which is major issue during mud season. There will be times when the supply chain gets locked up (usually in winter) where if you can get propane or heating oil you will be paying a significant premium. If you put in a bulk propane tank unless you want to write a very big check and take the responsibility to have your tank inspected and re-certified every so many years, you will be leasing the tank and buried in the lease is effectively language amounting to an easement.

Unless Emera has a really weird billing structure, there is usually a base fixed rate for the privilege of service, the rest of the bill are all use related, the more power you use the more you pay. I pay $12 a month flat rate its worth it to me I only pay for power and transmission services if I use power. You are far better off going on a "power diet" and going with max efficiency appliances. Its likely that Maine is going to legislate net metering now that that there is new governor. Even if the state does not go with net metering you can install PV and shift your loads to match solar production possibly augmented with small AC lithium battery for daily load shifting. PV is cheap these days so as long as you have a solar window you can put in near vertical panels to avoid the snow issue.

I had linked to Home Power magazine previously. There is a long term monthly column about a off grid couple out west that ran for years which describe day to day living with an off grid system. Might be worth going through them.

 

[jebatty]

Easements can be tricky, as you already know. Among other things mentioned, the easement must be defined as to exact legal (survey) location. Watch especially the width of the easement, pole maintenance/replacement, line clearing responsibility, responsibility for damage to trees/buildings from downed line (think fire or worse), clean-up, timeliness of the utility performing its duties, any responsibilities you have, and a whole lot more. The easement form of the utility is likely all about it and nothing to protect you.

Our electric utility wanted to cut down a huge swath of mature trees which towered over their line along the road accessing our property. After lots of arguing, we finally made a deal that we would pay $100/foot for them to install, bury, and maintain the underground line across our frontage, which also serves many other properties down the road.

 

[SpaceBus]

Take this for what its worth. Its pretty easy to convey technical info over a forum. Its real hard to give advice over an internet forum compared to face to face.IMO we are getting into the advice territory.

It does look like you are looking for excuses to go off grid. That is your prerogative, just realize that you are taking on a major long term effort that is going to have long term issues that far exceed the hassles associated with the grid. There is a term that is applicable that you are effectively "cutting off your nose off to spite you face". You have described that you have some medical issues associated with your service and it sounds like you live in remote area with your wife without a lot of support net. I don't wish it on you but it could put you in situation were you are temporarily unable to do the things that have to be done to keep your micro grid up and running. Sure you can train your spouse but if she it tied up nursing you and keeping the rest of the homestead running, keeping the grid up is just one more thing to worry about. The vast majority of new off gird system owners end up "murdering" their batteries by neglect and its real easy to consistently over discharge the bank because other priorities come up and then in about a year or two they discover they are running the generator close to full time as the batteries will not take a charge. I have known several folks who have put in seasonal off grid systems and every one of them have killed their first set of batteries. One guy worked for a heavy equipment firm and got used batteries for free so he did not mind except for lugging around a couple hundred pounds of batteries every 2 or 3 years. I also met several off gird year rounders in the Northeast Kingdom area of VT who are year rounders because there was no grid. Across the board they all gladly hooked up to the grid when it was available or sold the house and moved to where there was grid.

An easement is not an evil thing, all it does is give the utility the right to access and maintain their equipment. If you want to maintain a zone of privacy that no one can enter without your permission, it is quite common to put a remote meter with a main breaker on pole some distance away from the house and then run conduit to the main panel. Barring someone digging it up or poor workmanship, once an underground cable is in place its there forever. There are limits to how long you can run the cable but I will let the pros comment. In this case the utility is only allowed to access the meter and the disconnect.

Note you are going to have lot more strangers visiting your home when you switch your dependence from electric to diesel or propane. Unlike the power company, the fuel services do not need an easement but they do have the right to not deliver if they don't like your driveway which is major issue during mud season. There will be times when the supply chain gets locked up (usually in winter) where if you can get propane or heating oil you will be paying a significant premium. If you put in a bulk propane tank unless you want to write a very big check and take the responsibility to have your tank inspected and re-certified every so many years, you will be leasing the tank and buried in the lease is effectively language amounting to an easement.

Unless Emera has a really weird billing structure, there is usually a base fixed rate for the privilege of service, the rest of the bill are all use related, the more power you use the more you pay. I pay $12 a month flat rate its worth it to me I only pay for power and transmission services if I use power. You are far better off going on a "power diet" and going with max efficiency appliances. Its likely that Maine is going to legislate net metering now that that there is new governor. Even if the state does not go with net metering you can install PV and shift your loads to match solar production possibly augmented with small AC lithium battery for daily load shifting. PV is cheap these days so as long as you have a solar window you can put in near vertical panels to avoid the snow issue.

I had linked to Home Power magazine previously. There is a long term monthly column about a off grid couple out west that ran for years which describe day to day living with an off grid system. Might be worth going through them.

Sage advice indeed. I will definitely take it to heart. This power line issue has just been another setback among many. Perhaps a small expandable grid tied system with storage is a better solution. A few years from now I'd like to build a barn/workshop and a cabin for my MIL. It would be easier to connect them to the solar system rather than putting in more poles or granting an easement to the power company. We shall see what the pole contactor says in a few weeks along with the solar contractor.

 

[SpaceBus]

I am still considering a propane range, thankless water heater, and possibly propane backup heat, but the question of the tank comes in like you mentioned. The range and water heater won't use much so I could even use a 40-100 lb cylinder and have a few spares like I did when we lived in the RV. I couldn't get the on board tank filled, so I had to improvise with a kit to run smaller cylinders. It's the backup heat that would benefit from a larger commercial sized tank.

 

[BethelStrong]

I am still considering a propane range, thankless water heater, and possibly propane backup heat, but the question of the tank comes in like you mentioned.

My water heater in thankless too. I give it shelter, feed and keep it well hydrated, and I even drain it now and then so it’s not dirty and corroded. It has never once showed its appreciation. Except I’ve never had a cold shower with this particular electric water heater.

Let us know how you like a tankless water heater if you try though, because once my thankless water heater dies, I was considering it.

Btw, I can’t stand the glass cooktop on our electric stove. My wife is Russian, and it drives her nuts to cook on it. Not only is it impossible to keep clean, but electric simply sucks for good cooking. I was thinking about putting gas in for that reason, and now maybe the on demand water heater, not to mention a bigger capacity/storage for my generator.


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.

 

[3fordasho]

We have some tankless water heaters at work that have been very problematic. I love my heat pump water heater but since you are trying to convert everything to propane I would suggest a conventional propane water heater - but get one with out a standing pilot (they use more than you think) and one with power vent or flue damper to reduce standby losses. These will also be 30-50% less expensive than a tank less unit up front and there will not be much difference in propane usage. The only advantage I've seen with the tank less units is they are very compact.

 

[SpaceBus]

My water heater in thankless too. I give it shelter, feed and keep it well hydrated, and I even drain it now and then so it’s not dirty and corroded. It has never once showed its appreciation. Except I’ve never had a cold shower with this particular electric water heater.

Let us know how you like a tankless water heater if you try though, because once my thankless water heater dies, I was considering it.

Btw, I can’t stand the glass cooktop on our electric stove. My wife is Russian, and it drives her nuts to cook on it. Not only is it impossible to keep clean, but electric simply sucks for good cooking. I was thinking about putting gas in for that reason, and now maybe the on demand water heater, not to mention a bigger capacity/storage for my generator.


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.

We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.

 

[SpaceBus]

We have some tankless water heaters at work that have been very problematic. I love my heat pump water heater but since you are trying to convert everything to propane I would suggest a conventional propane water heater - but get one with out a standing pilot (they use more than you think) and one with power vent or flue damper to reduce standby losses. These will also be 30-50% less expensive than a tank less unit up front and there will not be much difference in propane usage. The only advantage I've seen with the tank less units is they are very compact.

When my parents were stationed in Europe we had gas fired tankless units and they were really great for us. I think it really depends on the maintenance. Space is definitely at a premium since we are on a slab and this needs to go in a small room.

 

[BethelStrong]

We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.

I’d be interested to know if the insurance company cared. Ours didn’t care about the wood burner at all. Cook stoves are maybe different. Our wood burner obviously isn’t our “primary” heat source, but we didn’t need an inspection or anything at all. I put it all in myself, which should have given the insurance company pause hahaha


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.

 

[SpaceBus]

I’d be interested to know if the insurance company cared. Ours didn’t care about the wood burner at all. Cook stoves are maybe different. Our wood burner obviously isn’t our “primary” heat source, but we didn’t need an inspection or anything at all. I put it all in myself, which should have given the insurance company pause hahaha


Changed the Tapatalk signature line so people can sleep better. Sent from my Chinese phone.

We had some issues with getting insurance, but I think it had more to do with living on the coast than the wood stove. They did send someone out to see how close the trees were to the house though. We went through an agent to get our policy, so at least we can ask her before we have to talk to the insurance company directly

 

[Where2]

You must be near us, it's about the same distance for me to get to home depot. Hammond Lumber and True Value in Machias have most everything we need.

Google says our place is ~120 miles north of you. Fortunately for us, it's all I-95 to get to Home Depot. From anywhere Downeast around Machias, it's a bunch of Route 1 or Route 9 to get to to Bangor.

There's always trade-offs with easements. My wife's employer got a check that would have paid off half our mortgage for granting an easement 5' wide and 120' long, abutting one of their property lines, so the power company could install a transformer and service an adjoining subdivision. They used directional drilling to install their conduits, and the only visible piece of equipment is a 4'x4'x2' ground mounted transformer. (this particular property where the easement exists is a block off the Atlantic Ocean in South Florida. The power company flies their top executives to work in a helicopter that flies over our house at 7:50AM every day, the cost of that easement was small potatoes to them...)

Not sure I understand why the new pole can't go in the same spot as the old pole, even if it meant having to disconnect power to your house for a day or two to get it installed and the wires installed on the new pole?? If there's already a hole in the ledge for the old one, why make more holes?

 

[SpaceBus]

Google says our place is ~120 miles north of you. Fortunately for us, it's all I-95 to get to Home Depot. From anywhere Downeast around Machias, it's a bunch of Route 1 or Route 9 to get to to Bangor.

There's always trade-offs with easements. My wife's employer got a check that would have paid off half our mortgage for granting an easement 5' wide and 120' long, abutting one of their property lines, so the power company could install a transformer and service an adjoining subdivision. They used directional drilling to install their conduits, and the only visible piece of equipment is a 4'x4'x2' ground mounted transformer. (this particular property where the easement exists is a block off the Atlantic Ocean in South Florida. The power company flies their top executives to work in a helicopter that flies over our house at 7:50AM every day, the cost of that easement was small potatoes to them...)

Not sure I understand why the new pole can't go in the same spot as the old pole, even if it meant having to disconnect power to your house for a day or two to get it installed and the wires installed on the new pole?? If there's already a hole in the ledge for the old one, why make more holes?

You bring up a good point, I'll ask the contactor about it when he eventually comes here. I got hammered in taxes this year and I will next year too, so my budget for solar has been eaten up. I'm still going to have the solar contractor out here to see what it would cost. I might get a small solar loan if it's not too bad. I'd like to put the line underground like you said, but the cost is probably outrageous. Maybe it's worth it to get an electrician out here to see.

 

[Johnny_Fiv3]

We hate this horrible glass top business, especially with large pots for stew or brisket. There's a gorgeous restored antique gas and wood cook stove for sale near me, but I don't know what our insurance company would say to it, and unlisted wood appliance clearances suck.

Is it an induction compatible glass top or just a glass top with the heating elements in it? Ours does both and while using it conventionally with regular pots completely sucks for large pots with a lot of liquid or the pressure canner, when using induction cookware it's phenomenal.

 

[georgepds]

Long post, so I’m not sure anyone has recommended this path

Go half way.. grid plus off grid

Back in the late 90’s early 00’s my electric company did not have net metering. What I did was create a shadow system (solar plus batteries) and rewired key power users in the house (tv, fridge, water pump, etc). It’s not the hard to run a few wires. I just placed a shadow plug near the grid plug for these uses. In the winter, when generation was low, I’d switch back to grid by moving to the grid plug. You can do this more formally with a switch at the breaker panel

That said, I’d not go back to batteries if there was another choice. You are in Maine. The administration just changed and I understand, under this administration, net metering is coming back. I'd take advantage of that

 

[peakbagger]

The background for the prior posters approach is some but not all utilities installed ratcheting "one way meters" so any excess generation from the solar system would be treated as purchases of power so the solar owner had to be careful to always use what they generated. Otherwise they were paying utility rates to the utility to send the power to the grid. Utilities also used software to detect possible fraud. They tracked the long term usage of power for the service and it changed substantially on the low side they would send out a service tech to make sure that the meter had not been tampered with. There were all sorts of creative ways to tamper with a meter some very dangerous. Other folks skipped the meter and ran jumpers between the incoming line and the house. If the power company caught anyone stealing power they would disconnect the feeder as long as it wasn't between September 1st and April 1st as the state had a law that a person had a right to power during those months even if they didn't pay for it. On April 1st they would pull the power and the owner had to pay the money they owned or they would not hook it up. If it wasn't hooked up by September 1st they would not hook it up unless the bill from last year were paid.

I had one of the earlier legal Grid Tied systems in my part of NH and expanded it a couple of times. After the original install and two upgrades I got a visit from meter tech looking for fraud. They would install new meters but their standard meter was bidirectional without a ratchet so the meter literally ran backwards when I had excess. At some point they switched to the current style meter that has two channels, one that measures utility power and one that measures my surplus sent out to the grid. A few years ago NH changed the rules around so the utility charges me taxes on power I get back from the grid and any utility power. I was assured by several folks involved with creating the regulations for net metering that I probably had a case to sue but I was not in the mood to pay a lawyer to sue a power company and the state on what totaled to be about $2 a year.

Some areas of the company are doing time of day billing. Some folks are getting creative and charging their batteries when power is cheap and the selling it back to utility when its expensive. The utilities are figuring it out and putting in all sorts of new regulations.

Net metering is now back in Maine and all power companies regulated by the state have to offer it.

 

[SpaceBus]

Not until recently have I understood why people hate power companies/utilities. I would like to do grid tied with batteries after we fix the house up.

 

[Where2]

Net metering is now back in Maine and all power companies regulated by the state have to offer it.

Finally!! Now I apparently have two ground mount systems I need to install...

 

[SpaceBus]

Finally!! Now I apparently have two ground mount systems I need to install...

It's not the best deal though, at least right now. The way I understand it is you can pay forward on your bill with your excess generation and you can accrue a positive balance and you won't have to pay your bill The downside is this resets in January when you need that power generated the most. It's really not that great.

 

[CaptSpiff]

Not until recently have I understood why people hate power companies/utilities. I would like to do grid tied with batteries after we fix the house up.

I still don't understand why you hate the electric company.
So far you've taken a photo of a pole which you own, suspecting it to be rotted.
Did you get a few quotes on addressing this pole? Or reinforcing the bottom with a steel channel & bands?
Did you look into taking the slack out of the (two?) guy anchors shown in the photo?
What specifically did the Utility Planner suggest when he came to visit?

It seems what you really hate is paying for electric energy. Welcome to the club.
States in New England and NY have made little effort to keep energy cost low.
In fact their primary focus is Clean Air and Energy Efficiency as driven by in-state special interests.
On the supply side, constrained natural gas pipelines drive up the winter wholesale electric prices. For which you pay.
Are any of the 3 plus major regional NG pipeline improvements gaining any traction? Nope, too many special interests.
Do the Electric Utilities get hurt or bothered by this? Nope, they have bill offsets granted by the state, so they always get their "approved" profit.
Why do the states play along? Because the Utilities are the largest in-state tax collectors, who will never vote them out of office.

You have an all electric house, because it was a vacation house.
You may have a marginally insulated house, because it was a vac house.
You should probably focus on building up your alternative winter fuel supply, and enjoy the upcoming spring and Maine summer.
Don't waste time hating the electric company.

 

[SpaceBus]

I still don't understand why you hate the electric company.
So far you've taken a photo of a pole which you own, suspecting it to be rotted.
Did you get a few quotes on addressing this pole? Or reinforcing the bottom with a steel channel & bands?
Did you look into taking the slack out of the (two?) guy anchors shown in the photo?
What specifically did the Utility Planner suggest when he came to visit?

It seems what you really hate is paying for electric energy. Welcome to the club.
States in New England and NY have made little effort to keep energy cost low.
In fact their primary focus is Clean Air and Energy Efficiency as driven by in-state special interests.
On the supply side, constrained natural gas pipelines drive up the winter wholesale electric prices. For which you pay.
Are any of the 3 plus major regional NG pipeline improvements gaining any traction? Nope, too many special interests.
Do the Electric Utilities get hurt or bothered by this? Nope, they have bill offsets granted by the state, so they always get their "approved" profit.
Why do the states play along? Because the Utilities are the largest in-state tax collectors, who will never vote them out of office.

You have an all electric house, because it was a vacation house.
You may have a marginally insulated house, because it was a vac house.
You should probably focus on building up your alternative winter fuel supply, and enjoy the upcoming spring and Maine summer.
Don't waste time hating the electric company.

You misunderstand, I don't hate paying for services, I hate being taken advantage of. Before moving here we looked up the rates and budgeted accordingly. My bill is double what we expected, because nobody online mentioned the delivery fees. This is non existent in other places I've lived. The power company also didn't tell me I would be responsible for for the pole until December. I created the account over the phone in August.

This house is actually extremely well insulated and isn't meant to be a vacation home, that's just what it was used for. It's not an all electric house; there is a passive solar heating wall, solar water heater (unsure of condition), and an interior masonry chimney for a wood stove. The walls are 2x6 making them 8" thick with great insulation. We've only used 3 cords of wood since November and our stove max output is 35,000 BTU, the insulation isn't the issue.

It's mud season so I can't get anyone out here. There's one contractor an hour away. He said it will most likely be $1,800 minimum, maybe more. A solar contractor is also coming and I'm hoping between this guy and the plumber the solar water heater can be resurrected. The planner just suggested a contractor to replace the pole and to speak with an electrician about burying the line.

My wife and I still haven't decided between a HPWH and an on demand LP system. Either way, I'm getting a wood cook stove installed with a 40 gal range boiler upstairs to heat my water 8+ months per year. The plumber will be our here soon for those estimates.

The NG pipeline constraints are a totally separate issue and I don't know enough ot converse with you on the topic.

 

[maple1]

You misunderstand, I don't hate paying for services, I hate being taken advantage of. Before moving here we looked up the rates and budgeted accordingly. My bill is double what we expected, because nobody online mentioned the delivery fees. This is non existent in other places I've lived. The power company also didn't tell me I would be responsible for for the pole until December. I created the account over the phone in August.

This house is actually extremely well insulated and isn't meant to be a vacation home, that's just what it was used for. It's not an all electric house; there is a passive solar heating wall, solar water heater (unsure of condition), and an interior masonry chimney for a wood stove. The walls are 2x6 making them 8" thick with great insulation. We've only used 3 cords of wood since November and our stove max output is 35,000 BTU, the insulation isn't the issue.

It's mud season so I can't get anyone out here. There's one contractor an hour away. He said it will most likely be $1,800 minimum, maybe more. A solar contractor is also coming and I'm hoping between this guy and the plumber the solar water heater can be resurrected. The planner just suggested a contractor to replace the pole and to speak with an electrician about burying the line.

My wife and I still haven't decided between a HPWH and an on demand LP system. Either way, I'm getting a wood cook stove installed with a 40 gal range boiler upstairs to heat my water 8+ months per year. The plumber will be our here soon for those estimates.

The NG pipeline constraints are a totally separate issue and I don't know enough ot converse with you on the topic.

I'm thinking you might have something else going on that is affecting your power bill.

How many KWH/mo does your bill say you use? What is your all-in price per KWH? That is, total bottom line bill $$, divided by KWH used? (Including delivery - all in). Ours is around $0.18/KWH.

Your DHW cost shouldn't be all that much, relatively speaking. Unless you use a lot of hot water. Ours only runs us around $25/mo, using a (fairly new very well insulated) ordinary 80 gallon tank heater. It was even at that level when we had the kids here full time.

You can get an energy monitor, and start figuring out exactly where your KWH are going. The first thing I would investigate, is the water supply & pump. Those can very sneakily eat up KWH if there is a problem, or even if the settings aren't optimized. We have an Effergy whole house monitor - very handy. It is on the shelf right beside me, and quick glance shows the house is using 1.68 kw at this moment. That's with the mini-split running, at -4c outside.

(But, if you are using your electric baseboard quite a bit, those will eat BTUs, no question - not sure how much you are actually using them, or how much heat you get from wood vs. the electric.)

 

[SpaceBus]

I've been monitoring my usage and it's $0.20/kwh. The hot water heater by and large is the majority of the use followed up by the electric range. I did the math and the electric range costs $0.50/hr to use. The water heater is just old and busted. My wife uses a lot of hot water, but that's ok, the new system will make it much better.

One baseboard heater kicks on in our bedroom if I don't get up before 0700-0800 to feed the stove. Otherwise it's like 98% wood heat and the heater only runs for an hour or hour and a half. After reviewing my usage it's like $5-15/month to use the one heater in this way. There is some air sealing to be done on the house as well. The SE and SW corners of the house have a lot of damage from neglect. We had to cut the SE corner open to stop water infiltrating and to close up the house we used vapor barrier, insulation batting, moving blankets, and plywood. It's holding, but I am losing heat from that area certainly. The SW corner of the house hasn't been messed with yet as it wasn't as bad.

So, with all the work we need to do and our old appliances, we use about 30kwh/day and 900-1100/month since November. I'm sure this will be reduced in the summer, especially if I can get the SHW going. I think we will be down to >20kwh/day with the new appliances.

Since we are also installing the wood cook stove with DHW option, maybe a 40 gal resistance heater wouldn't be a bad option. With the SHW and cook stove it would only rarely turn on. We still don't know what option is best for us.

 

[3fordasho]

I've been monitoring my usage and it's $0.20/kwh. The hot water heater by and large is the majority of the use followed up by the electric range. I did the math and the electric range costs $0.50/hr to use. The water heater is just old and busted. My wife uses a lot of hot water, but that's ok, the new system will make it much better.

One baseboard heater kicks on in our bedroom if I don't get up before 0700-0800 to feed the stove. Otherwise it's like 98% wood heat and the heater only runs for an hour or hour and a half. After reviewing my usage it's like $5-15/month to use the one heater in this way. There is some air sealing to be done on the house as well. The SE and SW corners of the house have a lot of damage from neglect. We had to cut the SE corner open to stop water infiltrating and to close up the house we used vapor barrier, insulation batting, moving blankets, and plywood. It's holding, but I am losing heat from that area certainly. The SW corner of the house hasn't been messed with yet as it wasn't as bad.

So, with all the work we need to do and our old appliances, we use about 30kwh/day and 900-1100/month since November. I'm sure this will be reduced in the summer, especially if I can get the SHW going. I think we will be down to >20kwh/day with the new appliances.

Since we are also installing the wood cook stove with DHW option, maybe a 40 gal resistance heater wouldn't be a bad option. With the SHW and cook stove it would only rarely turn on. We still don't know what option is best for us.

Clothes dryer electric? Ours will almost triple our daily KW usage if we use it a couple loads that day. From 12kw to 30+ just like that. Needless to say a gas dryer is on the way.

 

[SpaceBus]

Clothes dryer electric? Ours will almost triple our daily KW usage if we use it a couple loads that day. From 12kw to 30+ just like that. Needless to say a gas dryer is on the way.

We don't have any washer or dryer. The 45 year old rusty resistance heater is the issue.

My wife and I are considering a gas dryer in a few years down the road. This will impact our decision about the water heater I think. If we go LP on demand, then it will be easier to go with an LP dryer later.

 

[maple1]

We don't have any washer or dryer. The 45 year old rusty resistance heater is the issue.

My wife and I are considering a gas dryer in a few years down the road. This will impact our decision about the water heater I think. If we go LP on demand, then it will be easier to go with an LP dryer later.

If your water heater is that old, I would replace it ASAP with a new one of same type. Who knows what kind of crud buildup is on the inside & on the elements, and it is on way borrowed time as far as suddenly springing a leak. At likely the very worst time.

You should be able to do that for less than $500 (without knowing your exact setup) and see immediate savings. I put ours up off the floor on a (very rugged) wooden stand, on a layer of 1" foam board. Wrapped a layer of 6" fiberglass around it (held in place with taped up foil bubble wrap - looks a little hokey but not all that bad). Added a heat trap at the outlet. It is very economical. Like I say, maybe $25/mo at similar all-in rates.

You should also be able to adapt a tank type heater to another heat source later if you want to, by T'ing off the bottom inlet or drain, and the relief valve fitting.