Everything Drolet Tundra - Heatmax...

[Digger79]

The only silly thing I see is the canoe paddle. Everything else looks like it was done by a professional contractor. Wait, that's you!

oh no man its totally half arsed. hacked together.. def not to HVAC code. lol. it works. I make a lot of things "work" with what ever I got in the sheds and around the yard. Love to solve problems utilizing what ever is within 5 feet of me rather than going 30 feet for the right tool or part. I get a kick out that crap. How can I make this work with out going to the trailer, .. the store,.. or spending any more damn money! I just need heat for now! lol Thats pretty much the set up here. needed heat in the house fast and need it relatively easy to un install. Hence my goofy setup. But it fits the bill. Yeah I know I talk like I'm 75 years old. lol. Neat! My Word, That fits the bill! Its just cause if I spoke normally on here all my posts would look like this...

So I got home and the %*#($ had dropped again and I had a %*#(#$ mess to #$#% with and I couldn't find the #*$(#$@ ash shovel so I just grabbed a *$# %&#! piece of *^&$ $%& metal bent the $%&#*&% thing into the %*^$@* shape I needed, said $%*# it and cleaned up the $(# #$@! mess.

 

[DoubleB]

Why does everyone call the tertiary burn a secondary burn?

Around here it's secondary burn. It's the air's second chance at burning what didn't burn the first time. I'm not an expert, so maybe I'm not quite right on all the terms, but that's how it seems to go here. And from your description above, that sounds like a specific design that might not apply in all stoves. Just my observations.

 

[DoubleB]

If that's the alternative, we can handle "neat."

FYI I use "neat" on occasion too.

 

[Digger79]

The only silly thing I see is the canoe paddle. Everything else looks like it was done by a professional contractor. Wait, that's you!

lol and the canoe paddle is the perfect support. Stays put year round. lol. That silly insulation gets wet from time to time cause I ripped a few little holes in the top of the plastic. YA know I could fix it pretty easily really but instead I cut the bottom open to let the water just drain out. lol. I keep meaning to put solid on there. wrap it in insulation and plastic just haven't gotten to it. Obviously my setup is highly controlled remotely even. I can turn of every thing from my phone separately. Temp controllers all of it just not the fire! anyway I of course am not reliant on it. Has gas furnace hooked up too as you know separate duct systems and elec heaters, insert inside. so If the pipe comes ripping off one day no big deal I'll put the other section on till I get around to doing the proper solid pipe. lol I still got another piece of 12" flex to burn through before I buy the solid stuff. haha. The inside prob stay the flex. its such a short darn return it isn't funny. the flex isn't really a static issue cause how short it is. The system is well balanced specially sense I went to the high flow filters instead of the doggy dander filters I was trying to get to work. Just too thick. Most of my ducts would blow STIHLY DAN's Skirt up like Marilyn Monroe! lmao

 

[brenndatomu]

FYI I use "neat" on occasion too.

As long as you don't say neato!

 

[Digger79]

Around here it's secondary burn. It's the air's second chance at burning what didn't burn the first time. I'm not an expert, so maybe I'm not quite right on all the terms, but that's how it seems to go here. And from your description above, that sounds like a specific design that might not apply in all stoves. Just my observations.

Google quadrafire. No your right not all "EPA" stoves.. just all stoves that function like our tundras and my insert. Down draft gasifiers are "EPA" and other systems. Our system in the Tundra is the Quadrafire system exactly. There are truly 4 burns going on. Quadrafire is a stove company that has a great little video explains the function of these stoves. Im not an expert either I read and studied all this junk on the internet. Which you can learn much that way but I also see what I am reading about occur in the fireboxes to some degree and have studied and red about other down draft and rocket stove systems, systems that use multiple baffles there are def multiple ways to gasify or burn 98% of the wood up before emissions exit. So in my unprofessional opinion, lol, they are 4 stage burners if they function like the Tundra. BTW the air coming in around the corners of the burner tubes.. was just licking down from the crack around the intake pipe where it goes thru into its housing. Wasn't coming out of the weld like I though. Got a clear shot of it tonight.

 

[Digger79]

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This is describing the exact burn that is occurring in our Tundra I believe. Appears that way to me. Air may come in at a different spot from the out side but inside its going in in the exact same locations if that made sense. lol

 

[mcmac]

Wow, I figured out how to disable email notifications this morning....every bit of gibberish posted here landed in my inbox this morning lol...!

Anyway, SBI got back to me....Claiming that every front end failure of the tundra was related to either over drafting or inadequate air through the unit. They see no reason that I shouldn't put my serial 1906 into service, and that the redesign was done in order to make the unit more resiliant to poor installation (operation?) conditions. In other words, the failures were our fault, not theirs, and they won't consider replacing my unit until it fails..

My response: (indentities concealed to, well, conceal identity)

Dear XX,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I fully understand that SBI is unable to control every aspect of installation or operation of their products once in the hands of the final user. Failures of any machine indicate how that product accepts its operating conditions within the limits of it's mechanical design. I fully intend to install and operate my furnace within the limits of that design, for reasons of safety and longevity. I selected the Tundra furnace based upon the reviews it gained online, as it is clearly an efficient, effective and easy to use design. Excellent customer service is also another factor.

As the heating system in my home is, with exception of the chimney, being designed from scratch, I have decided to hire a qualified HVAC contractor to design, test, and record the actual performance of the system, so as that it will meet the requirements of the furnace. I will also submit the design and measurements to you in order to ensure I am not overstressing the unit. My plan is to operate well within guidelines, essentially "babying" the furnace. I'd like to see maximum longevity from the furnace, and I refuse to comprmise on safety. It will be set up correctly.

I myself, am a journeyman machinist with a rather extensive welding background. Understanding stresses and thermal expansion of materials is a key component of my trade. This being said, with a basic understanding of the stoves function, the interaction of thermal stress between the front plate of the furnace, the heat exchanger, and the firebox does concern me. When the heat exchanger and the firebox are heated at different rates, thermal expansion of the components will be different. As a result, the two components are fighting each other through the front plate of the furnace. As the front plate is loaded in shear (and likely torsion at points) this proves to be the weak link where failure occurs. Even when operating under ideal circumstances, there is the possibility of several loading events during a normal burn cycle ie: during secondary burn, heat exchanger tubes are hottest, thus pressing forward at the top of the front of the stove. As the wood degasses, coal burn takes over, placing the majority of the heat in the firebox itself. The heat exchanger contracts, the firebox expands, and reverses the bending force on the front of the stove. This repeated stress may be causing failure, even without a discrete over-temperature event.

This theory is borne out in online reports that your updated model has free-floated the heat exchanger body from the front wall of the furnace.

You have assured me that the original design of the stove will survive normal usage under ideal installation situations. Again, I will satisfy the requirements set out in the manual, and have professional record to verify. In the event of failure of the unit, please assure me that the warranty will apply and that an updated unit or repair options will be available.

Best regards,

mcmac

 

[mcmac]

They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being. If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.

 

[lexybird]

They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being. If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.

They are good about warranty and update stuff hope it works out btw I'm a journeyman toolmaker your in good company

 

[DoubleB]

Claiming that every front end failure of the tundra was related to either over drafting or inadequate air through the unit. They see no reason that I shouldn't put my serial 1906 into service, and that the redesign was done in order to make the unit more resiliant to poor installation (operation?) conditions.

Total BS. Yes, some user abuse has happened. But the only long-time Tundra member that I can currently think of without cracking is @3fordasho (x2 furnaces), perhaps because he added temp control before even his first fire. The redesign was done because the original design was not acceptable even before each furnace shipped out the door.

 

[Digger79]

They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being. If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.

They're full of crap. They r hoping you're doesn't fail. If u cut those welds around the HE and install good firebrick(I tucked a little rock wool in the inside corners too. See earlier pics posted) u should be ok. The other thing you need from SBI more than anything IMO is the new fan and high limit switches, the high temp wire. And wire chase so u can update that aspect of stove. Most important thing u need is high limit and fan both coming on much much sooner. This is the biggest difference I have noticed after getting the updated replacement. U get those switches proper u should be fine. Honestly I think the high limit is the main problem. Old model got way too damn hot.. However nothing ever got anyhere near over fire on the old unit. Hottest temps it saw was 450-475 maybe 500 and it cracked. They will replace it though if it fails and DO NOT let them repair get replacement unit if u have failures. Good luck! They r great furnaces when they work!

 

[Digger79]

If u just bought it and haven't fired it can u not return it to the store?

 

[Digger79]

And I mean firebox temps measured on face of stove w surface therm. never got over 500 ever. Therm. located right next to top left corner of door. I have surface therm on HE door too and old unit got 100-200 deg hotter at HE than new one.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing? I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement. Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?

 

[brenndatomu]

They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being. If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.

They are good about warranty and update stuff hope it works out btw I'm a journeyman toolmaker your in good company

Total BS. Yes, some user abuse has happened. But the only long-time Tundra member that I can currently think of without cracking is @3fordasho (x2 furnaces), perhaps because he added temp control before even his first fire. The redesign was done because the original design was not acceptable even before each furnace shipped out the door.

99% of people have been very happy with SBIs customer service and warranty...but, they seem to like to point fingers...BIG TIME! It may be true that some people have not done perfect installs...or had overfires...but so have the majority of wood furnaces out there. You don't see Hotblast furnaces cracking all over the place...and they are known to overfire regularly! Pretty bad when USSC can make a less fragile product. It would be nice if they (SBI) would just accept some responsibility. I suppose they kinda are...in the form of replacement furnaces. Alright, rant over.

That said, if I were installing a brand new Tundra...and lets just say it's going in a basement that is a bugger to install and remove furnaces from...I would do two things that I'm 99.9% sure would insure long term durability for Tundra
1. Install a PID temp controller like has been discussed many times before here.
2. Install a ICM speed controller on the blower like I talked about on the last page (post #1351). I have really been impressed with this thing, it has exceeded my expectations by far. It keeps the furnace cooler because it starts the blower at a low speed as soon as the firebox starts to warm instead of after things are already rockin. And you can speed the blower up by one or more speeds higher than you would normally be able to run, because the controller will slow or speed up the blower to "match" heat output. And the best part...toward the end of the burn, when all you have is coals left...the blower runs on low for hours on end...thus taking advantage of the low steady heat output that is still there...just so I'm clear, this mod has made a very noticeable difference in the heat output performance of my Tundra!

A different way of looking at this would be a big city cab ride...picture a crabby cabby that floors it when the light turns green (fan switch turns on) then drives with the throttle pinned to the floor the whole time, except for when he comes to a red light (fan switch turns off) that results in locking the brakes up, coming to a screeching halt...a rough ride for sure. Rinse and repeat...all day long.

Now contrast this to highly skilled limo driver, he pulls away smoothly from a green light (speed controller starts on low) by operating the throttle and brakes with a light touch that matches the flow of traffic (speed controller ramps blower up/down as needed to match furnace temp)
He then anticipates upcoming red lights by lifting the throttle and applying the brakes (speed control runs the blower at a very low speed for hours before stopping) in a way that would never spill your champagne. The result is a smooth and much less stressful ride for you, less fuel used, and less wear and tear on the car.

Anyways, my personal opinion is that these two controllers installed on a new Tundra would insure that it would see many years of service.
Once again, I'll mention personal responsibility, doing mods like this means you could possibly void your warranty...and homeowners insurance, so if you "electrically challenged", or just aren't completely comfortable doing things like this, then don't do it. If things were wired up wrong, or an aftermarket controller would fail, there could be catastrophic results...just so you understand, proceed at your own risk.

 

[brenndatomu]

View attachment 175295 View attachment 175296 View attachment 175297 View attachment 175298 View attachment 175299 View attachment 175300 View attachment 175301 View attachment 175302 Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing? I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement. Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?

Good deal!
Dolly...yes.
Blower box off...yes.
You could remove all the firebrick and the door to lighten it more.
Once you have it in it's final spot, check that the firebox baffle is in it's proper position (centered, seated, and all the way back)

 

[jb6l6gc]

Hotblast furnaces cracking all over the place...and they are known to overfire regularly! Pretty bad when USSC can make a le

Can confirm ussc hotblast here run pretty hard in the last few yrs I've owned it. No issues except fan which I changes out for a larger furnace fan. And thermostatic spring control in inlet damper starting to go! Hoping my heatmax stands the test of time

 

[jb6l6gc]

Good deal!
Dolly...yes.
Blower box off...yes.
You could remove all the firebrick and the door to lighten it more.
Once you have it in it's final spot, check that the firebox baffle is in it's proper position (centered, seated, and all the way back)

I was thinking that. Door off brick out. Fan off. Dolly and 3 people. Hoping I can man handle her in no damage or injury!

 

[maple1]

I would strip that puppy as much as I possibly could. Good luck, that looks like an adventure in moving, for sure.

 

[jb6l6gc]

I would strip that puppy as much as I possibly could. Good luck, that looks like an adventure in moving, for sure.

Well old homeowner got hotblast in
So I'm sure it can be done

 

[mcmac]

Thanks for all the responses and good info guys, I never though I'd encounter such an avid developer community for...wood furnaces!

Since I haven't figured out how to reply with quotes, I'll try to answer as much as I can without them...

I got the stove on clearance at HH for basically 40$ over their cost. Returning it would basically mean that I'd have to order it elsewhere for full price, which is enough of a price difference that I can't justify right now. That being said, if this one packs it in and I have to replace it, swapping it out isn't really a big deal. The stove will basically sit just inside the basement right next to the door. I have an excavator available to sling heavy things in and out of the back of the pickup.

My unit has that galvanized wire conduit run up on top of the plenum. I think somebody said that this means it has the updated temp sensors? I agree that having the fans come on sooner and stay on longer will go a long way to reducing thermal stresses on the unit. My manual states the sensors are "thermodisc 36t11 L200" and "ceramic thermodisc f110-20F" Can anyone confirm if these are the latest sensors?

The HH people were surprised SBI hasn't initiated a recall on these units, if the problem is indeed that widespread. It seems simple to me what the problem is, as I detailed in the email I sent them...the HX and firebox both should not be welded to the same front plate. I've got half a mind to take my angle grinder out to the shed and stuff a zip cut into the front of the thing until the HX door housing is fully free of the front plate.

How welded on is that HX to the front? All I see are those cheezy tacks along the bottom, I'm assuming they barfed a bunch of weld along the back of the thing? I can't see those tacks being able to twist up and crack the front plate like has been happening..

I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions about this thing, besides, reading about all the adventures here is certainly entertaining!

 

[mcmac]

View attachment 175295 View attachment 175296 View attachment 175297 View attachment 175298 View attachment 175299 View attachment 175300 View attachment 175301 View attachment 175302 Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing? I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement. Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?

Those stairs look like fun. Good luck!

 

[jb6l6gc]

Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install 56 pages whoaa! Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods. ie. Sensors tips and tricks. 56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough. I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.

 

[brenndatomu]

Since I haven't figured out how to reply with quotes,

Highlight the words that you want to reply to, then click the reply button that pops up. Or just click reply for the whole post.

How welded on is that HX to the front? All I see are those cheezy tacks along the bottom, I'm assuming they barfed a bunch of weld along the back of the thing?

Just on the front I believe