EV developments

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Hope everyone has a wonderful and warm Thanksgiving!
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
joop said:
if everyone charges their vehicule at night, wouldn't that become the peak hours?
Click to expand...
It will change he demand curve but I imagine utilities will have smart load management by that interfaces only with the car and the effects will be much smaller.
 
Its pretty simple to send a signal over the internet (or over the actual "smart grid" already in place in the US) to a smart charger to turn it on and off at night remotely. Its already being done with home batteries that sell back to the grid. I expect that either the utilities or third parties will leverage EV chargers to turn on an off depending on grid demand. Turning off a charger for 5 minutes is probably a bigger grid impact (due to charge rate) as having a home battery sell back to the grid for 5 minutes. Using this switchable variable load to manage grid issues allows power plants to run at a steadier state which is the most efficient way to run rather than chasing a load. I don't think the average person really cares what time of night their car is charging as long as in the AM it has enough charge to allow them to go to work and come home. It just takes a different way to think.

I know that with my plug in hybrid, I dont visit gas stations very often especially when the temps warm up and I am using the heater less.
 
  • Like
Reactions: begreen and EbS-P
Peak power consumption hours are over by 8pm. The car can be set to charge from 8:30pm to 7am. That's a fair amount of mileage at 40a/hr.

Since the pandemic, our Volt has more hours on the engine due to engine and fuel maintenance modes than to lack of battery charge. With a 40-65 mile range all local driving needs have been covered.
 
Can’t wait for Tesla to bring back the camero 4x4!

[Hearth.com] EV developments
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
It makes money by skipping much of the development costs. Hopefully they didn't put Honda seats in it.
 
EatenByLimestone said:
It makes money by skipping much of the development costs. Hopefully they didn't put Honda seats in it.
Click to expand...
Bet it does;) I think anything with Ultium platform is DOA.
 
begreen said:
How so and why?
Click to expand...
Didn't ask me, but this Ultium tech was announced, what, 3+ years ago? And only a miniscule number of units have shipped. And then some were shipped and then recalled and stop sale-ed. Then GM announced that they would be be making more hybrids bc buyers don't want EVs.

;hm

We can see you GM. Your Ultium product is either unbuildable, unworkable, unaffordable, or some combination of those three things.

AFAIK, the Ultium idea is to have the battery in 6-12 modules, each with their own BMS, that can be swapped independently. This might have been a 'great idea' in 2018 when folks were worried about battery replacements, or single bad cells wiping out a whole pack. Or designing a different pack for different size classes of vehicles.

Otherwise, it sounds like a lot of extra packaging, interconnects and high power electronics.... which adds cost, weight and volume.

Or you can just do better QA on your packs, and not worry about that. Designing different sized packs if NOT HARD, bc packs are scalable inherently at the cell/string level.

In contrast, other makers are **outsourcing** their batteries at the cell level to the latest and greatest chemistry/cost/form factor by the lowest bidder.

I just learned that Ford is going to sell the lowest trim Mach-E's with CATL provided LFP battery cells. Right on Ford!! THAT is how you do it, not blowing vaporware bubbles for years about your AWESOME new battery (packaging) tech.
 
Last edited:
woodgeek said:
We can see you GM. Your Ultium product is either unbuildable, unworkable, unaffordable, or some combination of those three things
Click to expand...
It's a bit too early to stick a fork into this product. The Ultium battery is in over 14,000 vehicles now. It is an architecture, not a specific tecnology. It's just a platform which has the nice advantage of a ton less wiring and it is much more battery tech agnostic. In China the Ultium platform has BYD batteries installed.

EV sales in general for the big 3 have been anemic so this is part of a general trend. While their numbers are not an earth-shaking number, it is decent considering that it has been introduced into the luxury market first and this is before production capacity has been there. Meanwhile, the big GM battery plants are just starting to come on line. It has taken time to automate production, but that is steadily improving. Yes, there have been early software issues, and these have been addressed. To say it's a failure before mass introduction is premature. Also, there is no saying that the Ultium battery architecture can't be incorporated into a hybrid design as it will be in the new Bolt. This year is important for GM. If they can make a good EV that falls below $30K and can produce them in high volume, then the numbers should turn around. We'll see. The factory complete Equinoxes are starting to show up on the streets now.

All that said, I have no love for Barra and still think they blew it by canceling the Volt and Voltec platform in the US. The elimination of Car Play and Android Auto is just plain bone-headed but the market will find a workaround for this. They also did not select the best vendors for some of the Ultium electronic manufacture. GM is diving into new tech, some of which they have little experience. It reminds me of the early hiccups of Tesla.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/0...o-battery-plant-now-running-at-full-capacity/
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
This recent critique sums things up well. This year will tell whether GM gets it's EV production back on the rails or not.
insideevs.com

How GM's Ultium Electric Car Revolution Went Off The Rails

General Motors once hoped to unseat Tesla as America’s EV leader. It’s time to understand exactly what went wrong.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
One thing I read was that Ultium could be used with different cells. Chemistries ect. But that flexibility means you built extra flexibility which must cost more. Nothing I have read has said it’s more advanced than Tesla or BYD. So I the end of the day it’s a vehicular platform that incorporates a battery for more than one product line. How 1990.

The battery platform would be low on my list of things to standardize. And if it doesn’t charge at more than 245 kw it better be under $32k.
 
No, the fundamental difference is that the platform can mix and match battery cell tech in the same platform. You don't have to replace the whole pack when there are a few cells failing. Secondly, it has eliminated a huge portion of wiring for individual cells. These are fundamental differences. The battery pouch design is with recycling in mind which is another step ahead. Standardizing the platform tech drives costs down.

Some background info:
 
Great article BG. I recall when Tesla was trying to scale its pack production with cylindrical cells and serpentine coolant hoses and it was a nightmare with a lot of them being hand packed. The robot versions kept nicking and kinking the hoses.

I always assume pouch cells would be simpler, but maybe not?
 
I think their main problem has been underestimating the scope of their vision. Developing a completely new battery system platform is not trivial. And they are doing this while concurrently developing major new software systems. This in itself is a major undertaking.

My understanding is that the pouch cells are simpler and easier to build, less expensive, less weight, higher energy density, and easier to recycle. They are widely used for these reasons.
 
Looked for Munro teardowns of Ultium packs. Only found one for the Hummer pack.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


Looked very complex. The pack is all steel construction with 3500 structural welds. The individual modules look like they were assembled by hand?
 
begreen said:
I think their main problem has been underestimating the scope of their vision. Developing a completely new battery system platform is not trivial. And they are doing this while concurrently developing major new software systems. This in itself is a major undertaking.

My understanding is that the pouch cells are simpler and easier to build, less expensive, less weight, higher energy density, and easier to recycle. They are widely used for these reasons.
Click to expand...
All true but thermal management is more challenging with pouch so is physical containment as they expand and contract with charging/discharging.

2024 won’t see any real volumes production for GM EVs IMO. That means 2025 s the make or break year. I would not want to be going up against Tesla’s new cheaper EV which has a good chance of being released in 2025. Major US battery production increases will materialize in 2025
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
All bets are off if BYD figures a way of getting in the US market.

Their price advantage means they don't really need an EV incentive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
peakbagger said:
All bets are off if BYD figures a way of getting in the US market.

Their price advantage means they don't really need an EV incentive.
Click to expand...
Not sure which political party would let that happen. More likely BYD partners with or buys out some US auto maker. My eyes are on Jeep/Rivian/Lucid
 
  • Like
Reactions: sloeffle and woodgeek
BYD is already expanding into Brazil. An expansion into Mexico is feasible.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom