EV developments

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I just was in a car with one of my Chinese colleagues. Tesla model Y.
He claims that the Tesla is far better than any of the Chinese electric cars (and he does go back at least twice a year for a few weeks, so he knows the cars there too).
That the Chinese cars may be cheaper and have more bling, but that the fundamentals (engine performance and battery range etc.) are far better for the Teslas. That the quality (not the "bling appeal") of the Chinese cars lags far behind Tesla.

I'm not sure how much he is biased based on the ideas mentioned earlier here (that Chinese cars are crap) and contradicted by that guy that went to the Chinese car show posted above.

But it's an interesting observation of an opinion - however (un-)informed, such opinions do form the basis of decisions.
Which brings me to the fact that Tesla is not doing all too well in China...

Anyway, an anecdotal datapoint that I thought was interesting to note in this thread.
 
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Look back at the 0-60 times for the corvette. And then Tesla. The fact that Tesla has the performance and range that it does has completely shifted our expectations of cars.


www.zeroto60times.com

Tesla 0-60 Times & Tesla Quarter Mile Times | Tesla Roadster, Model 3, Model S, Model X, Model U, Model Y & more Electric Car 0 to 60 stats!

The #1 resource for Tesla 0-60 & quarter mile times offering a comprehensive index of Tesla electric car specs including Tesla Roadster, Model 3, Model S, Model X, Model U, Model Y & more!
www.zeroto60times.com www.zeroto60times.com

Now context more context. I loved listening to car talk. I recalled one episode where they discussed the Toyota Cellica. And how the GTS had too much power! Found it!!

Yes that beast of a FWD car with 180 HP did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds!!!

So us over top ‘Mericans (and I don’t think it takes long to acclimate to our excessive car culture) won’t find anything really appealing about small cheap cars until gas prices go way up.

I haven’t followed how BYD and the like are engendering and assembling cars. Teslas are good. Any competition must reall assess teslas design and and manufacturing , if not our right attempting to copy the cost saving measures to be competitive. We won’t see a BYD here for at least 5 more years. If not more. The import tariffs will remain if not grow for the foreseeable future. the big 3 will lobby like their lives depend on it to keep china out. And union supporters will agree and china haters will agree those tariffs aren’t going anywhere.
 
ABMax24 said:
If only China operated on free market principles.
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No disagreement here.

Find it ironic that the American auto manufacturers have been milking the public for years with their high dollar trucks and SUVS.

But when the Chinese come knocking with an affordable EV they immediately go to Washington and demand that tariffs be put in place.
 
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EbS-P said:
Look back at the 0-60 times for the corvette. And then Tesla. The fact that Tesla has the performance and range that it does has completely shifted our expectations of cars.


www.zeroto60times.com

Tesla 0-60 Times & Tesla Quarter Mile Times | Tesla Roadster, Model 3, Model S, Model X, Model U, Model Y & more Electric Car 0 to 60 stats!

The #1 resource for Tesla 0-60 & quarter mile times offering a comprehensive index of Tesla electric car specs including Tesla Roadster, Model 3, Model S, Model X, Model U, Model Y & more!
www.zeroto60times.com www.zeroto60times.com

Now context more context. I loved listening to car talk. I recalled one episode where they discussed the Toyota Cellica. And how the GTS had too much power! Found it!!

Yes that beast of a FWD car with 180 HP did 0-60 in 6.6 seconds!!!

So us over top ‘Mericans (and I don’t think it takes long to acclimate to our excessive car culture) won’t find anything really appealing about small cheap cars until gas prices go way up.

I haven’t followed how BYD and the like are engendering and assembling cars. Teslas are good. Any competition must reall assess teslas design and and manufacturing , if not our right attempting to copy the cost saving measures to be competitive. We won’t see a BYD here for at least 5 more years. If not more. The import tariffs will remain if not grow for the foreseeable future. the big 3 will lobby like their lives depend on it to keep china out. And union supporters will agree and china haters will agree those tariffs aren’t going anywhere.
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I don't know if this was a response to my post or not.
But I don't understand what an ICE car has to do with things.

I also think that you are very much applying the American values (as in what is valued in a car) to a market that you (as I too) don't know. Electric car drivers in (urban) China may not give a rats behind about 0-60 (aka 0-100 in normal units...). No way to do that anyway in congested Chinese cities.

All I did was bringing anecdotal input *from someone who actually has driven both* many a time for many a week, and knows the culture there.
 
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sloeffle said:
No disagreement here.

Find it ironic that the American auto manufacturers have been milking the public for years with their high dollar trucks and SUVS.

But when the Chinese come knocking with an affordable EV they immediately go to Washington and demand that tariffs be put in place.
Click to expand...

I know that keeps getting brought up here, that some how the big 3 have forced the American consumer to pay exorbitant costs for Trucks and SUVs. Unfortunately that's simply not true. There's tons of competition in America; Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Kia, and Mazda for example all sells smaller cars and SUVs at considerably lower prices than the big 3s large trucks and SUVs. Yet the roads are full of these large expensive vehicles, how come? Seems to me its the consumer driving the market.

I'm sure manufacturers had some input on this week's tariffs, I don't believe they are the primary driver. It's an election year and this bodes extremely well for the Dems pro-union camp. There's also significant evidence to suggest that some kind of armed conflict will occur between China and the west before this decade is out. Makes sense to ensure manufacturing is re-shored before that happens.
 
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EbS-P said:
And up other tariffs…. Now 100%
www.cbsnews.com

Biden announces new tariffs on Chinese EVs, semiconductors, solar cells and more

The Biden administration is dramatically increasing tariffs on items including Chinese EVs to solar cells, batteries, steel and more.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
Click to expand...
This may backfire, even if it is an EV. It allows the Big 3 to drag heels and put out inferior products when they have a captive market. Surprisingly anti-competive and the American buyer pays the price. I like owning American cars, but only if they are good vehicles.
 
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begreen said:
Yes, that one stopped me too. Perhaps they mean that they can sell more and make up for the lower margins?
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Yes, maybe.
Though any margin is better than a loss of $100,000 per car that was mentioned earlier....
 
ABMax24 said:
I know that keeps getting brought up here, that some how the big 3 have forced the American consumer to pay exorbitant costs for Trucks and SUVs. Unfortunately that's simply not true. There's tons of competition in America; Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Kia, and Mazda for example all sells smaller cars and SUVs at considerably lower prices than the big 3s large trucks and SUVs. Yet the roads are full of these large expensive vehicles, how come? Seems to me its the consumer driving the market.
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You are correct, consumers have a choice but businesses don't. Is a large construction company going to use cars to pull their equipment around with ? When we go to WV SXS riding there are people who check oil and gas wells and they are always driving trucks with a bunch of gear in the back. I doubt a small SUV or car would survive those oil and gas roads for day. I've noticed that they all drive 3/4 or one ton single axle trucks because my assumption is a 1/2 ton won't hack it. My point is, those businesses are forced to pay exorbitant prices by the big three. Guess who that cost ultimately gets passed on to, the consumer.

Back on topic. I am by no stretch of the means saying what the Chinese are doing are ethical business practices. Personally, I wouldn't buy a Chinese EV if it was the last vehicle on the planet to buy. The good thing is, I think the Chinese will keep raising the bar and hopefully the legacy automakers will be able to raise the bar above them.
 
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That’s where I am. I drive a heavily loaded 1/2 ton. I can’t pull our trailers any more due to the tools and parts in my truck. My business partner just found out last week he’s unable to pull the empty trailers either. I don’t want to get a 3/4 ton, but having to empty my truck of all gear to pull an empty trailer is a tough sell.
 
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EatenByLimestone said:
That’s where I am. I drive a heavily loaded 1/2 ton. I can’t pull our trailers any more due to the tools and parts in my truck. My business partner just found out last week he’s unable to pull the empty trailers either. I don’t want to get a 3/4 ton, but having to empty my truck of all gear to pull an empty trailer is a tough sell.
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Can’t pull trailer because your already at the axel weight limit?
 
My truck can’t hold the tongue weight of my empty trailer if my truck has my tools in it. It isn’t done squatting when the trailer’s post is done lowering. When my truck is empty, I can carry the trailer packed to the gills without any problems. I never get to what the axles can handle, lol. The truck’s suspension is the weakest link. There are ways to increase what the truck can carry, but that doesn’t change what the door sticker says. I don’t need to be carrying unsafe loads in a truck. If something bad were to happen…

When we started we had a little 4x6 enclosed trailer. It had a long tongue that made it possible to back up… like a boat trailer. One day I was hauling it empty, and the tongue failed where it met the enclosure. The trailer was never abused, it was just a weak spot. But it failed as I was driving down the road in front of a school bus. I thank God that the trailer stayed in one piece and I could get it to the side of the road with only a few sparks. Trailers and trucks are super easy to overload, but it’s hard to choose where things go wrong.
 
ABMax24 said:
Yet the roads are full of these large expensive vehicles, how come? Seems to me its the consumer driving the market.
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There are several reasons behind this. Around the year 2003 coming out of the dot-com slump, big vehicles were pushed by the administration as "safer" even if that wasn't always true. It was always my take that this was a payoff to oil co lobbyists and campaign contributions. And over the decades, Americans have grown a lot heavier, needed more room in the car or cab. This supersizing has shown up in more than just vehicles. This is unhealthy for persons and unsafe for vehicles, but still it is where we are.

www.vox.com

The reckless policies that helped fill our streets with ridiculously large cars

Dangerous, polluting SUVs and pickup trucks took over America. Lawmakers are partly to blame.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
 
EatenByLimestone said:
My truck can’t hold the tongue weight of my empty trailer if my truck has my tools in it. It isn’t done squatting when the trailer’s post is done lowering. When my truck is empty, I can carry the trailer packed to the gills without any problems. I never get to what the axles can handle, lol. The truck’s suspension is the weakest link. There are ways to increase what the truck can carry, but that doesn’t change what the door sticker says. I don’t need to be carrying unsafe loads in a truck. If something bad were to happen…

When we started we had a little 4x6 enclosed trailer. It had a long tongue that made it possible to back up… like a boat trailer. One day I was hauling it empty, and the tongue failed where it met the enclosure. The trailer was never abused, it was just a weak spot. But it failed as I was driving down the road in front of a school bus. I thank God that the trailer stayed in one piece and I could get it to the side of the road with only a few sparks. Trailers and trucks are super easy to overload, but it’s hard to choose where things go wrong.
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Yeah I get that. I just had the rubber bump stops replaced on my minivan. Now I consider the new ones as part of the suspension loaded (400# under the limit) it it sits on those bumpers. Anymore think stock springs are designed to give good ride while empty. Once they get 100k miles on them they are shot for hauling at capacity.

I almost put air bags on the van. They are in my shed in a box.
 
The thread is drifting. To keep it on track, it's best to take these truck and suspension discussions into a separate thread in the Inglenook.
 
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I expect this boast doesn't get scrutinized by the SEC, unlike others ;)
 
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MotorTrend did the same stunt with a ModelX performance when they first came out. But the Tesla actually won. It was a neat add even if a fabrication.
 
woodgeek said:
Sandy Munro has a contrarian take on the Supercharger team layoffs:

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He's the cranky uncle I want at Thanksgiving. ;lol
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Reuters takes a look at the economic ripple-effects of the Musk edict. They are not trivial.
 
Is this a Tesla specific issue or a general issue for all automakers? Driving around town looking at dealer lots I would say its an issue for all automakers, most local dealers are back to pre-covid inventory levels. Seems production has finally caught up with demand.
 
ABMax24 said:
Is this a Tesla specific issue or a general issue for all automakers? Driving around town looking at dealer lots I would say its an issue for all automakers, most local dealers are back to pre-covid inventory levels. Seems production has finally caught up with demand.
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Not sure if other car makers are storing thousands of new cars on random large lots around the country.
 
begreen said:
Not sure if other car makers are storing thousands of new cars on random large lots around the country.
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Other automakers have massive dealer networks that can absorb, at least for a while, an over production by the factories. GM has 7,000 dealers in the US alone between all it's sub-brands. If every dealer can take an extra 25 vehicles that's a lot of inventory. Tesla by comparison only has 245 dealers in the US, and simply doesn't have that ability to stuff extra inventory onto those lots, so would have to use parking lots.
 
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