England 30-NC

[Highbeam]

I don't believe that it is reasonable to expect to run a big, clean burning, noncat like the nc30 at under 500 stove top temps without running into these problems. This stove is designed to run hot and clean, even at the minimum intake setting which is required to pass EPA tests.

It's a big stove.

Does it "work" better when you allow it to cruise at 600-700?

 

[begreen]

smoke will billow out the top when I open the door, slowly and wait.

Is the key damper fully opened 5-10 seconds before slowly opening the stove door?

 

[begreen]

I don't believe that it is reasonable to expect to run a big, clean burning, noncat like the nc30 at under 500 stove top temps without running into these problems.

It should be ok as long as this is with a partial load of splits. In this mild November I have had to burn 4-5 split fires. The firebox is about 1/4 to 1/3d full. The stovetop is running around 4-500º once the stove has warmed up. Even with a 20' flue, straight up, when it is over 45º outside I have to crack the door open for about 5 seconds before slowly opening the door. Adding resistance in the flue path, like a damper or 90º turns will make the situation worse, especially if the draft stalls with the in rush of cooler air from opening the stove door.

 

[Highbeam]

It should be ok as long as this is with a partial load of splits. In this mild November I have had to burn 4-5 split fires. The firebox is about 1/4 to 1/3d full. The stovetop is running around 4-500º once the stove has warmed up. Even with a 20' flue, straight up, when it is over 45º outside I have to crack the door open for about 5 seconds before slowly opening the door. Adding resistance in the flue path, like a damper or 90º turns will make the situation worse, especially if the draft stalls with the in rush of cooler air from opening the stove door.

Right, loading a few little splits and burning them relatively hot and fast is the best way to get low output with a noncat. Trying to smolder a normal load to keep it under 500 and extend burn times could lead to problems such as the OP describes.

If the flue damper is closed hard enough to get smoke out of the flue connection then you know there is very little fresh combustion air entering the stove. Great recipe for backpuffs, high emissions, gunk on the window, etc.

The NC30 is 3.5 cubic feet of plate steel stove with a low emissions rate. It wants to run!

 

[SpaceBus]

Hi Spacebus. Not struggling to keep the fire going at all. It is just, when under 450-500 degrees, smoke will billow out the top when I open the door, slowly and wait. I just metered the new kiln dry wood I bought on multiple pieces, plus a freshly split piece. Read between 10-15%.

Armanidog - Why would that happen, and how do I fix it? As I mentioned earlier, I have someone coming to clean the flue (was cleaned less than a year ago) and the stove needs to be cold so they can clean. I can explain the issues to them, but they won't be able to see them.

You have to bring the wood inside, let it warm up to room temperature, split it, and then check the split face. Sticking prongs into the ends of cold wood will always read low in moisture content, even if there is actually 35% or more water by weight.

The entire flue system is under negative pressure so air is pulled in through gaps, unless your draft reverses and then it will come out of the gaps.

 

[Lv2trav]

Arminidog - I didn't see any scree on the connector. FYI, the discolored top of the stove was there when I purchased the home. It is my understanding that this was from overfiring by the previous owner based on research I did.

Begreen - Yes, I open the key for about 20 seconds.

Highbeam - Yes, it works better the higher the temperature goes. It is at its worst under 400.

How should I be running it to maximize the wood (ie cost) and keep the temps in a safe place? If I put 1-2 medium to small splits in at a time it runs well and then smolders around 30 minutes later, but keeps the temp around 500-550. If I put a bunch of smalls in it will jump the temp quickly, maybe 600-650, but then smolders and the wood lasts about 15-20 minutes. If I put more than 2 medium splits (or 2 large) in it jumps up to 600-800, and I have lost control once or twice and it sat around 800. I haven't really tested how long the wood lasts in this situation.

Spacebus - How does the draft reverse when the top of the stove reads 500+? I am not closing it when it is smoldering or cooled down.

I really appreciate the help! We love the fireplace, but don't want the kids to get smoked out, and don't want to burn through wood/aka cash!

 

[SpaceBus]

If smoke is entering your house, the draft is reversing. There is no other way to describe that situation. Does the fire die when you close the door? What is your fire starting procedure?

 

[Lv2trav]

If the fire is not going well it will slow down when I close the door. If it is established and ripping opening and closing the door has no effect.

I put two pieces N/S and two pieces E/W with some fat wood under. Light it and it gets going quick.

 

[SpaceBus]

If the fire is not going well it will slow down when I close the door. If it is established and ripping opening and closing the door has no effect.

I put two pieces N/S and two pieces E/W with some fat wood under. Light it and it gets going quick.

But you can't close the door right away? You should be able to load the stove full and not have a problem.

 

[begreen]

Have to ask, have you measured the stove top temp with anything else like an IR gun or another thermometer?

 

[Lv2trav]

Spacebus, what do you mean "you can't close the door right away?"

Begreen - Funny you should ask that as I ordered a new stove top thermometer last night as I thought, perhaps this one isn't working right. I have not tested with an IR gun.

I would welcome any suggestions on how I should be operating my stove. IE, start with 4 pieces, and then two mediums, or two large when it gets to X temp, no smalls after it starts, etc. I need to learn how to get to the secondary burn, which I just can't seem to do consistently.

 

[NickW]

It will run best with full loads, biggest on the bottom, packed tight. I generally will have 8-10 large and medium pieces in a full load. Cruising stt 550-650 trying to stay under 750 at peak although I have hit 830 or so on occasion. This gives me 8-10 hour cycles. This is with a stainless insulated liner.

Your clay liner should be inspected for cracks and missing mortar. Understand that with full loads as you shut down the air there is more fuel fighting with the secondary combustion for oxygen. As you shut down the air more of it goes to secondary combustion and less to the primary combustion. You may not be putting enough wood in to see the "fight" between the two. Note that in emergency situations opening the doors will send a rush of cool air into the stove cooling the stove and flue down even though the fire is still raging. On cold starts the top down method is hard to beat as it warms the secondary tubes quickly.

 

[Highbeam]

Looking at that glass, my best guess is your two issues are wet wood and/or trying to smolder that stove too cold. Leaning towards you’re just not letting it run hot enough.

This stove design has been around a long time and is a proven runner but it’s big and like all noncats depends on high firebox temperatures for efficiency and clean burning.

Let it eat! As long as your house is not too hot, there is no cheaper fuel than firewood. If you can’t run this stove hot enough to be efficient due to the size of your home then a smaller stove might be more appropriate.

 

[Lv2trav]

You are great at diagnosing as I think I am running it way too cool based on NickW's post. I am throwing in two mediums at a time, not 8-10 large/mediums! I will try doing that, but can you walk me through what I should do with the key damper with that size load, ie fully open for X amount of time, and then slow it down to Y % closed when it reaches Z temp? I am excited to try that as it may be my answer.

Highbeam - My house has a huge vaulted ceiling and there is no way we would be too hot!

If this helps my issue, would adding a stainless insulated liner be necessary/advised?

 

[NickW]

A stainless insulated liner is definitely better than clay. Necessary?... depends on the shape of the clay...

You'll have to play with the key damper position. Don't forget about the primary air control. I would think you should be able to find a good combination to get it to run well if the wood is dry.

Note that wood species has some affect on burning. Under 20% on a fresh warm split is the goal, but 22% ash will burn pretty well when 22% oak can be a nightmare.

 

[Highbeam]

You are great at diagnosing as I think I am running it way too cool based on NickW's post. I am throwing in two mediums at a time, not 8-10 large/mediums! I will try doing that, but can you walk me through what I should do with the key damper with that size load, ie fully open for X amount of time, and then slow it down to Y % closed when it reaches Z temp? I am excited to try that as it may be my answer.

Highbeam - My house has a huge vaulted ceiling and there is no way we would be too hot!

If this helps my issue, would adding a stainless insulated liner be necessary/advised?

Here’s my nc30. Just 19’ of all vertical stack and I have a pipe damper too. At this point, given your symptoms, I would only utilize the pipe damper if the stove air control is fully closed and you still feel like the fire is raging.

I monitor flue temperatures and suggest you do too. Keep internal flue temperatures below 850, and skin temperature of single wall pipe below 450.

 

[Lv2trav]

I just loaded it with 8 pieces. Do you load them all N/S packed tightly, or criss-cross?

Do I wait until it gets hot, ie 700-800, before dialing back with the key damper?

FYI, the temp got up to 500 quickly so I turned the key damper to slow it, about 75% closed, and some smoke came out the connection between the stove and the piping. I turned it back a little and it stopped.

Highbeam - I have double wall piping, what skin temp do you suggest?

 

[begreen]

If this helps my issue, would adding a stainless insulated liner be necessary/advised?

I think it would help on a couple fronts, a cleaner flue and the ability to run smaller loads without the chimney getting too cold.

On double-wall stove pipe you need a probe thermometer. A digital probe is the best. Condar make analog probe thermometers that are decent.

 

[Lv2trav]

Update - 2 hours later the 8 pieces, which were mostly medium as I don't have large, are all burned up and the temp dropped to 450. Just reloaded it.

 

[logfarmer]

I had the NC30 a couple yrs ago, it did not work well for me…hard to control and didn’t draft well for our setup. Used magnets on the holes behind the front legs and just couldn’t regulate it well. I didn’t have a pipe damper which might’ve helped but I sold it as soon as I stopped using it. Listen to these people on this site, very knowledgeable and some use this same stove. Good luck and hopefully you get it worked out.

 

[Lv2trav]

Thanks logfarmer. I am definitely listening as I am having the same issues you had! Did you replace the stove, and if so, did it help?

I think the loading up with 6-8 pieces is not working. I am on my third load of wood and now I have a giant mountain of embers and can barely fit 2 pieces. I ran the last 6-8 pieces trying to keep the temp over 600, so it was open almost all the way as it kept dropping to around 500. Including a picture of my stove insides. I don't know what I am doing wrong?

 

[Highbeam]

I just loaded it with 8 pieces. Do you load them all N/S packed tightly, or criss-cross?

Do I wait until it gets hot, ie 700-800, before dialing back with the key damper?

FYI, the temp got up to 500 quickly so I turned the key damper to slow it, about 75% closed, and some smoke came out the connection between the stove and the piping. I turned it back a little and it stopped.

Highbeam - I have double wall piping, what skin temp do you suggest?

The eight pieces were loaded north south like hot dogs? Those 8 pieces should have filled the firebox to the roof.

Did you completely slam the intake shut, all the way in, before messing with the key damper?

Don't smoke yourself out, if smoke leaks out of joints then open the key damper up slightly.

Don't measure skin temperature on double wall. You need a probe meter for that.

 

[SpaceBus]

So the key damper is the source of draft coming back in. I think there is a combination of things happening here; inexperience, marginally dry wood, and an oversized clay liner. The draft is probably amazing, when it's cold outside and the fire is going strong. Other conditions may result in a slow draft.


The air control needs to be closed slowly as the fire is gaining strength. The idea being that if you try and close down the air on a strong fire, it will just get stronger. If you wait until the stove top is 600+ df, then it's too late and the stove will be burning at the peak rate, regardless of what you want. The fire has to be controlled as it's gaining strength, and small adjustments work better than large ones. There are limits to how much you can control the fire, it is a box designed to burn cordwood as hot as possible to be as clean as possible.

All that being said, that stove should easily be able to light a fire with a firebox full of oak and still have coals left over six to eight hours later.

 

[logfarmer]

Thanks logfarmer. I am definitely listening as I am having the same issues you had! Did you replace the stove, and if so, did it help?

I think the loading up with 6-8 pieces is not working. I am on my third load of wood and now I have a giant mountain of embers and can barely fit 2 pieces. I ran the last 6-8 pieces trying to keep the temp over 600, so it was open almost all the way as it kept dropping to around 500. Including a picture of my stove insides. I don't know what I am doing wrong?

View attachment 286975

I did replace the stove with an old englander “cat” stove and now a blaze king stove! One thing that “helped” me was I raked all the coals to the right side I think it was and filled up the stove all the way across and basically could only fit a smaller log on top of the hot coals. Doing it this way it would “slowly” burn from right to left through the day/night. That would help me keep a temp of 550-650. Didn’t seem to matter before that stove temp would be at 700 or would go out/basically smolder, nothing else. I was using wood 18-20% moisture and it created so much creosote in the pipe and chimney that winter. I’m not blaming the stove I’m sure it was me and my chimney setup (clay liner) but was very happy when I sold it lol!

 

[MAD MARK]

Your loads should be N/S with the "tunnel of love" down the middle left open so the doghouse air can flow to the back.

Below are great examples of how I load mine up, although they are not my images. The below images should last way over 2 hours. When I pack mine like that I get about 4-5 hours of steady flames and and addition of 2-3 heat of at least 450 and up.

I would have to say and agree with here that your wood is not as dry as you think. Also, move your temperature gauge to the little 45 degree step up directly in the middle. Its proven to be the hottest spot.