E classic 1450 or PM Optimizer 250

[jon 2701]

I have had the opportunity to operate and observe the wood consumption of a pre gasification indoor wood boiler without and with storage . Without storage it would burn 16 cords per year and when 1,000 gallons of storage was added it burned 10 cords per year, standby loss is huge.This boiler was not grossly over sized at 90,000 gross btu's per hour .
The Jetstream with the same storage and load burns 4 1/2 cords per year !

Can you add storage to a CB e classic down the road if wanted. Maybe in a few years I will add a structure with a tank. Is this a practical option?

 

[hobbyheater]

Can you add storage to a CB e classic down the road if wanted. Maybe in a few years I will add a structure with a tank. Is this a practical option?

Storage can always be added later. Operating a boiler without storage and then adding storage is a real eye opener. There is a Portage & Main 250 optimizer here locally that runs without storage that heats a smaller, more energy efficient home than ours. It burns twice as much wood. Its burn cycles are never long enough to truly get to gasification mode. It smolders most of the time. I have never seen a CB e classic but unless it has enough of a load to give it some long burn cycles, it will not be that efficient. But running the e classic without storage for several years will save on conventional heating costs that can go towards the cost of storage.
My observation of the above Portage & Main and its need for storage makes the Garn Junior very attractive cost wise , it is simple ,efficient , and already has storage !

 

[hobbyheater]

If it is your plan to add storage down the road , plan your plumbing to incorporate it .

 

[jon 2701]

If it is your plan to add storage down the road , plan your plumbing to incorporate it .

What would have to be added now? My guess is just another line underground from the boiler to where I would install the tank. How does the tank work?. Is the boiler water just pumped into the holding tank and then forced out through a return port to complete the loop. This seems like the best option for me now. Wood out of the house now and future storage for efficiency. Any advice as to how to do this setup now would be great.

 

[heaterman]

Storage can always be added later. Operating a boiler without storage and then adding storage is a real eye opener. There is a Portage & Main 250 optimizer here locally that runs without storage that heats a smaller, more energy efficient home than ours. It burns twice as much wood. Its burn cycles are never long enough to truly get to gasification mode. It smolders most of the time. I have never seen a CB e classic but unless it has enough of a load to give it some long burn cycles, it will not be that efficient. But running the e classic without storage for several years will save on conventional heating costs that can go towards the cost of storage.
My observation of the above Portage & Main and its need for storage makes the Garn Junior very attractive cost wise , it is simple ,efficient , and already has storage !

This post pretty much sums it up. Pay attention to what you are being told here.

The price of the E-Classic + storage will not be very different from the Garn Jr recommended by Allan. He is hitting the nail on the head.
From what I have seen of the E-Classic and other outdoor gasification "boilers" it takes at least 10-15 minutes before they reach gasification temps. They foul up with creosote quite frequently because they never get to the needed combustion temperatures.
You would be better off with a standard non gasification boiler rather than one that is intended to do so but cannot because burn cycles are not long enough.

 

[jon 2701]

This post pretty much sums it up. Pay attention to what you are being told here.

The price of the E-Classic + storage will not be very different from the Garn Jr recommended by Allan. He is hitting the nail on the head.
From what I have seen of the E-Classic and other outdoor gasification "boilers" it takes at least 10-15 minutes before they reach gasification temps. They foul up with creosote quite frequently because they never get to the needed combustion temperatures.
You would be better off with a standard non gasification boiler rather than one that is intended to do so but cannot because burn cycles are not long enough.

The garn is not an option now because I keep saying the additional structure now is not an option. My best option now is to get the wood out of the house and save money is the OWB. If I can expand it later with storage then I would have the best of both worlds. A Gasser OWB is required In NH. Any advice as to what I would need to do now to setup for future storage when I install the OWB. The cost of a storage tank down the road could be free since my brother has access to old giant propane tanks

 

[maple1]

If at all possible, put the storage tanks in your house. Any heat lost from them will stay within the building envelope. Plus they make great radiators if you don't insulate them tightly. Don't know what your basement situation is, but tanks can be sized & configured to fit all kinds of different spaces. The wood mess will still be outside with the boiler.

 

[hobbyheater]

What would have to be added now? My guess is just another line underground from the boiler to where I would install the tank. How does the tank work?. Any advice as to how to do this setup now would be great.

When you first enter the boiler room forum , there is a list of threads . " Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design" " Underground Lines- not the place to skimp " good reading .

 

[hobbyheater]

[quote="jon 2701, post: 1514297, member: 27227" How does the tank work?. [/quote]

I'm guessing that the e-classic is unpressurized ?

 

[jon 2701]

[quote="jon 2701, post: 1514297, member: 27227" How does the tank work?.

I'm guessing that the e-classic is unpressurized ?[/quote]
The E classic is unpressurized like the Garn.

 

[jon 2701]

When you first enter the boiler room forum , there is a list of threads . " Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design" " Underground Lines- not the place to skimp " good reading .

I did some reading and cannot find any thing on this brand of pipe. (broken link removed to http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/Insulated-Underground-Tubing_c19.htm) It is a closed cell product and an r value of R55. Not sure if this is considered skimping. Specs and design look good. Any users out there? 8.75 per foot incls shipping for 1 1/4" O2 pex five wrap. I know O2 is not needed.

 

[mikefrommaine]

Jon, you are about to make some very expensive mistakes. (that will be compounded if you buy that pipe)



Go buy a storage shed. Pick up one or two of those free propane tanks. Buy an indoor gasser. There are a few in the 5k range (or less) that will out perform any OWB. Download a diagram (the TARM Biomass ones work great) And take a few weeks to understand how they work. You can be up and running by new years...

 

[Floydian]

R55! NO way, period. Bogus LowE, radiant barrier marketing scam.

To quote the guy in the hilarious OWB video:"Don't buy this $hit".

 

[arbutus]

Jon,

Check the underground piping sticky at the top of the page.

The 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 ... wrap stuff may work for a time, but it most likely will get water in it, and that will remove its insulating value. You will then have a snow free patch on the ground with green grass in February. For a little more you can have closed cell foam, or possibly about the same, spray foam the trench.

I haven't owned that stuff, but I have seen it installed, and after a short time it is full of water.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Ne wood , Dont forget the Vigas

ah yes and the Vigas. My apologies.
I believe jon2701 is in NH so yes there is a Vigas rep contact I have too. He has some interesting storage options also.

I have been researching for 3 years and the products just keep getting better for the residential market. My plan is to build a larger barn for hobbies as I age so my larger heating needs are not immediate.

I agree with the additional cost of the structure, but I think you will find it will pay off in the not so long run.


8x20 storage container is $2500-3000 delivered on site. some are even insulated. (8x 40 is close to same price)
good underground pipe ~$14 a foot
consider a few radiant panels for your heat transfer.

Water thermal storage is not a new concept. the cost of the storage was a limiting factor in the past. this site has many ideas to solve that.

I would suggest sketch up your layout of your home or pics. And post to this thread and see if you get suggestion as to a route to go.

You could build a complete system just from the classifieds on this site. and be under $10,000

 

[maple1]

I just now looked at the badger link you posted.

Do not get that stuff - you will be very sorry.

 

[jon 2701]

I just now looked at the badger link you posted.

Do not get that stuff - you will be very sorry.

Got it. I will avoid the pipe.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

My best option now is to get the wood out of the house and save money is the OWB

This statement has me baffled. there is no savings that I can see with this option. But does get the wood out of the house.

Your house is 1900 S.F. ?

E1450 my neighbor has heats well over that I bet he is in the 3800 S.F. range. I could check with him regarding his wood usage.

 

[jon 2701]

This statement has me baffled. there is no savings that I can see with this option. But does get the wood out of the house.

Your house is 1900 S.F. ?

E1450 my neighbor has heats well over that I bet he is in the 3800 S.F. range. I could check with him regarding his wood usage.

Allright, forget the OWB. I have been abused enough. LOL I just spoke with Patrick at Vigas. I think I am going to wait and go that route. After all the advice here I really do not have any other choice. Just curious on your friends wood usage on the 1450

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

I will check on the usage of the E1450.
I do know he buys two truck loads a year 16-18 cords. But he maybe getting ahead.

cord wood prices are climbing. as the demand for low grade wood increases.

I would look into managing your 200 acres for sustainability if you haven't already.

With the right system set up you may also be able to offset your heating costs with some select cutting. and still have wood for your future use. and have your cordwood pulled to the landing for a few years.

Lots of great experienced advice on this site.

I would guess if your 20 miles from CB dealer that I'm nearby.

 

[heaterman]

Jon, what the guys here are telling you is absolutely correct. Spending a little money in order to do something "right now", in a semi emergency frame of mind is a recipe for disaster when it comes to burning wood.
There are no shortcuts to a system that will give you the service and performance you are expecting.

Most of what you hear from the sales people in the OWB market is not true. Especially when it comes to the performance of an OWB and as you saw above, the underground pipe. There are a lot of guys here who believed the hype and paid the price by having to spend all the money again to do it right. They are telling you the truth.

If you don't have the shekels to do it this winter, I would sure advise you to wait until you do. Otherwise you will wind up throwing good money after bad.

We are bashing on you. In fact we love you and want to help.

 

[jon 2701]

Jon, what the guys here are telling you is absolutely correct. Spending a little money in order to do something "right now", in a semi emergency frame of mind is a recipe for disaster when it comes to burning wood.
There are no shortcuts to a system that will give you the service and performance you are expecting.

Most of what you hear from the sales people in the OWB market is not true. Especially when it comes to the performance of an OWB and as you saw above, the underground pipe. There are a lot of guys here who believed the hype and paid the price by having to spend all the money again to do it right. They are telling you the truth.

If you don't have the shekels to do it this winter, I would sure advise you to wait until you do. Otherwise you will wind up throwing good money after bad.

We are bashing on you. In fact we love you and want to help.

I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look

 

[maple1]

We're kind of beating things over now on this thread - but not knowing your previous experience with burning wood & the bad indoor mess thing, that situation might not be as bad as you're thinking with a more modern unit & likely decreased wood consumption from increased efficiency. I have my boiler in the basement, and in another month or two, all my winters wood will be down there with it. I don't find it very messy at all - I just spend a few moments sweeping every few days, and in the fire it goes. I have a small electric splitter down there with it for fire starting help. All my fire starting stuff stays nice & dry - as does the firewood. Some also put smoke spillage into the messy category - but I have none with the new unit. The bit of sweeping does not come close to outweighing having everything inside so all & any heat losses are within the building envelope (except for what makes it up the chimney), and I or other family don't have to bundle up & go outside all winter to feed the fire. I like being able to maintain the heat in robe or shorts if that's what I happen to be in at the time.

I do also understand, however, that inside is not for everyone with everyones situation, priorities & preferences. My tune might be a bit different if I didn't have a decent basement entry that I can use to wheel all my wood through - but messiness itself doesn't change the tune any.

 

[maple1]

I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look

Dang, that should help - I only wish I was that close to decent real-person advise when I was contemplating mine. Although things did turn out OK with me on my own, thankfully...

 

[nrcrash]

I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look

Can't go wrong with Patrick and AHONA. Your going down the right path....