Advise on Enviro Boston 1700 vs BK Ashford 25 and Several Newbie (yet specific) Questions

[chemie]

Honestly it is the liner manufacturers not the stove manufacturers that need to improve their manuals. It really isnt the stove manufacturers job or place to give proper instructions for other peoples products.

I dont agree.If BK or any other company thinks that their products run much better and safer with an insulated liner, they should use a stronger language in their manuals. Otherwise people in my shoes would continue hearing comments and feedbacks from dealers/installers/sweepers, at least in tristate area, “ you do not need insulated liner “ “ it is the most ridiculous/stupid idea “ “who ever told you this has no clue what he is talking about” etc.
If you are saying that uninsulated liners have no application and should be banned, it is your field. I don’t know much about that.


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[bholler]

I dont agree.If BK or any other company thinks that their products run much better and safer with an insulated liner, they should use a stronger language in their manuals. Otherwise people in my shoes would continue hearing comments and feedbacks from dealers/installers/sweepers, at least in tristate area, “ you do not need insulated liner “ “ it is the most ridiculous/stupid idea “ “who ever told you this has no clue what he is talking about” etc.
If you are saying that uninsulated liners have no application and should be banned, it is your field. I don’t know much about that.


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I never said uninsulated liners had no use. Oil and gas dont need insulation. We do it anyway because it reduces condensation but they meet code just fine uninsulated. And we have only used pre insulated twice we usually insulate ourselves because we dont think the extra cost of preinsulated is normally worth it.

 

[bholler]

And i agree things should change. But it is the responsibility of the liner manufacturers and the installers to make sure the liners are installed correctly.

 

[chemie]

Other than what @Ashful , @bholler , @BKVP have said, Blaze King is specific with pointing out that they prefer an insulated liner due to the lower exhaust temps there stoves produce, this is because there stoves have a higher efficiency rating then most on the market, the epa reburn tube stove runs cleanest when secondary combustion kicks in at 1,150 deg F vs 550deg f for a cat stove, naturally the flue temps are going to be hotter with the epa tube stove because its ran a higher throttle to achieve its epa rating for a clean burn, while the cat stove can be throttled back, remain active in burning off smoke particles, producing heat while having a lower flue gas exhaust temp.
What does all that hoopla mean for an insulated liner? Assuming that the chimney is 100% working order and meets all codes, the insulated liner adds additional protection / aide in keeping the flue gases from condensing and creating the by-product called creosote, especially when using a cat stove that can be burned at a lower temp.

I understand the logic. But All the people I have talked to saying that they have been doing this (installation/selling etc) for 20-30 years and never used insulated liner. One of them even claimed that he installed over 500 BK without insulated liner and he sweeps their chimney yearly , he doesn’t see any more creosote build up more than usual.
When I brought up it is written in BK’s manual, some said it says recommended in the manual not needed and several said we are not in Canada or up North so not needed ( I hear you that it doesnt matter where you live). One even said , when I brought up Hearth.com and everyone recommends it in there, he installed more than 5000 stoves in Long Island probably has more expertise than anyone in the forum.
All I am saying is that when a product is made it states required conditions to work effectively. When you say “recommended “ and leave it to the expertise of the people in the field , more will encounter similar reactions.


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[bholler]

I understand the logic. But All the people I have talked to saying that they have been doing this (installation/selling etc) for 20-30 years and never used insulated liner. One of them even claimed that he installed over 500 BK without insulated liner and he sweeps their chimney yearly , he doesn’t see any more creosote build up more than usual.
When I brought up it is written in BK’s manual, some said it says recommended in the manual not needed and several said we are not in Canada or up North so not needed ( I hear you that it doesnt matter where you live). One even said , when I brought up Hearth.com and everyone recommends it in there, he installed more than 5000 stoves in Long Island probably has more expertise than anyone in the forum.
All I am saying is that when a product is made it states required conditions to work effectively. When you say “recommended “ and leave it to the expertise of the people in the field , more will encounter similar reactions.


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Doesnt it also say the chimney should meet all applicable codes or something to that effect? To me that covers it pretty well.

 

[chemie]

Doesnt it also say the chimney should meet all applicable codes or something to that effect? To me that covers it pretty well.

I asked every single one of them if it is needed per code. They ALL said no.
If one assumes all the chimneys built is not up to the code then insulation is a must I guess. ..I believe there was a similar discussion in the past in the forum.


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[Ashful]

I asked every single one of them if it is needed per code. They ALL said no.
If one assumes all the chimneys built is not up to the code then insulation is a must I guess. ..I believe there was a similar discussion in the past in the forum.

... and we've come full-circle. But you said this installer is claiming you don't need an insulated liner, without having ever inspected your chimney? Why would he (effectively) insist your chimney is up to code, when history indicates that most are not? That is the real rub, here... not just a debate over which performs best.

Beyond that, I tune out real quick when someone starts claiming 30 years experience, when we're discussing technology that did not exist 30 years ago. Yes, an insulated liner has no performance advantage, when installed on a pre-EPA stove. That long-past experience really has zero merit, when discussing the particulars of the most efficient stoves on the market.

 

[bholler]

I asked every single one of them if it is needed per code. They ALL said no.
If one assumes all the chimneys built is not up to the code then insulation is a must I guess. ..I believe there was a similar discussion in the past in the forum.


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In that case they havnt bothered to learn and follow the codes so why would you assume changing the stove manual would make a difference. They are unethical contractors plain and simple. The only thing that will change it is better code enforcement. But no one wants to pay for that. And contractors like them fight it every time it is brought up.

 

[chemie]

... and we've come full-circle. But you said this installer is claiming you don't need an insulated liner, without having ever inspected your chimney? Why would he (effectively) insist your chimney is up to code, when history indicates that most are not? That is the real rub, here... not just a debate over which performs best.

Beyond that, I tune out real quick when someone starts claiming 30 years experience, when we're discussing technology that did not exist 30 years ago. Yes, an insulated liner has no performance advantage, when installed on a pre-EPA stove. That long-past experience really has zero merit, when discussing the particulars of the most efficient stoves on the market.

I’d love to see any data from a study that shows most chimneys are not up to code...

I am not defending them or saying they are right. They claim they know what they are doing and up to date with technology. One blunt one even said he probably installed more BK than anyone in the forum and has vast experience.


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[bholler]

I’d love to see any data from a study that shows most chimneys are not up to code...

I am not defending them or saying they are right. They claim they know what they are doing and up to date with technology. One blunt one even said he probably installed more BK than anyone in the forum and has vast experience.


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Just because someone installed allot of stoves doesnt mean any of them were done right. It means they keep prices as low as possible to make lots of sales. They also typically install as quickly as possible so they can get multiple stoves installed in a day. That all means many cut corners.

 

[chemie]

In that case they havnt bothered to learn and follow the codes so why would you assume changing the stove manual would make a difference. They are unethical contractors plain and simple. The only thing that will change it is better code enforcement. But no one wants to pay for that. And contractors like them fight it every time it is brought up.

It would help customers to know clearly what the product needs and eliminates any ambiguity. It could even put pressure on the contractors. I checked only two manuals, Boston 1700 and Ashford 25. Boston doesnt even mention anything about insulation.



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[bholler]

It would help customers to know clearly what the product needs and eliminates any ambiguity. It could even put pressure on the contractors. I checked only two manuals, Boston 1700 and Ashford 25. Boston doesnt even mention anything about insulation.



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But what i sm saying is it isnt their product that needs it. It is the liner manufacturers responsibility. And the code officers as well. I have seen hundreds of stove and liner installs that passed inspection dispite being nowhere near code compliant. That is inexcusable.

 

[bholler]

Again i am not in any way against stove manuals pushing for insulated liners. But i just dont see that it is their responsibility.

 

[chemie]

Just because someone installed allot of stoves doesnt mean any of them were done right. It means they keep prices as low as possible to make lots of sales. also typically install as quickly as possible so they can get multiple stoves installed in a day. That all means many cut corners.

Again, statistically speaking, hearing the same thing over and over without any exception from different installers in NY, NJ, and CT is really odd.
I hope they dont all cut corners.
It would be very informative and entertaining to watch a debate between experts in here and installers/dealers/sweepers I talked to.
Anyhow, My wife would kill me if she knows I spent so much time on this
Thanks all for the feedbacks.I’ll keep bothering you.


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[bholler]

Again, statistically speaking, hearing the same thing over and over without any exception from different installers in NY, NJ, and CT is really odd.
I hope they dont all cut corners.
It would be very informative and entertaining to watch a debate between experts in here and installers/dealers/sweepers I talked to.
Anyhow, My wife would kill me if she knows I spent so much time on this
Thanks all for the feedbacks.I’ll keep bothering you.


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To be clear a am a sweep and installer and it really bothers me that there are so many that dont take their customers safety seriosly. And if they are saying insulation is not necessary without doing a full inspection first they are cutting corners. I would be willing to bet they dont do the inspections they are supposed to before installg either. Some probably dont even clean the chimney properly ahead of time.

 

[Tegbert]

It’s not just where you are it’s everywhere. when I went to install my insert both dealers I stopped by to look at different models and get quotes both said the same thing that you got. It’s not cold enough here to need an insulated liner. And we only stock non insulated ones cause there’s no need for the insulated ones. This is even after they knew I was installing it they didn’t have to deal with it at all. So I bought the kit I linked to before and only got the stove from them.

To me it was piece of mind even if it was overkill.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[begreen]

@chemie this is totally unrelated, but if you get a chance could you turn off the iPhone ad in the tapatalk signature line? Here is how to do it: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-to-post-on-the-hearth-com-forums.139782/#post-2257451

 

[gunpowda]

From my experience with the BK dealers/installers in my area that I have talked with, I was unimpressed. None of them would install a block off plate and said it would not make a difference. So I branched out and called other installers/sweepers....same answer.

I am having my 2017 AF25 install corrected this month by a non BK dealer...

Thankful for this forum. I feel bad for potential buyers that go in to a showroom that don’t take the time to educate themselves. Or maybe I should feel bad for the uneducated dealers.

What does it take to become a BK dealer? Training? Geo territory?

 

[Ashful]

I’d love to see any data from a study that shows most chimneys are not up to code...

To be honest with you, I would too. I'm only going by what people on this site have found in their own experience, and the handful of sweeps and installers that have frequented this site in the last six years. Well, that and my own limited experience, having had a half-dozen chimneys of my own inspected by pro's.

Like you, my installers told me I didn't really need an insulated liner in two of the three chimneys I had lined, in this house. That was despite a chimney company saying it failed. But they were happy to wrap a blanket around it, and charge me for it, even though they felt it was overkill.

 

[Ashful]

From my experience with the BK dealers/installers in my area that I have talked with, I was unimpressed. None of them would install a block off plate and said it would not make a difference. So I branched out and called other installers/sweepers....same answer.

I am having my 2017 AF25 install corrected this month by a non BK dealer...

Thankful for this forum. I feel bad for potential buyers that go in to a showroom that don’t take the time to educate themselves. Or maybe I should feel bad for the uneducated dealers.

What does it take to become a BK dealer? Training? Geo territory?

Scroll back a page, BKVP already addressed that. My read on it: they are not "BK dealers", they're hearth stores that happen to carry BK products, typically alongside several other brands.

 

[chemie]

From my experience with the BK dealers/installers in my area that I have talked with, I was unimpressed. None of them would install a block off plate and said it would not make a difference. So I branched out and called other installers/sweepers....same answer.

I am having my 2017 AF25 install corrected this month by a non BK dealer...

Thankful for this forum. I feel bad for potential buyers that go in to a showroom that don’t take the time to educate themselves. Or maybe I should feel bad for the uneducated dealers.

What does it take to become a BK dealer? Training? Geo territory?

What problems did you have with previous install?

 

[chemie]

I called a chimney company who doesnt do stove installation to inspect the flue and chimney.
He said I have 10 inch flue that I guess is a good news. And he said it is up to code.
I am sharing the pics. Let me know if you have any inputs . Thanks.

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[Ashful]

I had the same rig, 10” OD / 8” ID round tile with chimney-top damper. I tore the damper off, put a flag stone topper on brick corbels atop the chimney, stainless cage under that, and slid a 6” blanket-wrapped liner up thru that 8” ID clay tile. It works beautifully.

 

[bholler]

I called a chimney company who doesnt do stove installation to inspect the flue and chimney.
He said I have 10 inch flue that I guess is a good news. And he said it is up to code.
I am sharing the pics. Let me know if you have any inputs . Thanks.

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Well for starters you need some madonry repair and a crown. And an insulated liner will easily fit in there which is good. Did the sweep who inspected it go in the attic?

 

[chemie]

Well for starters you need some madonry repair and a crown. And an insulated liner will easily fit in there which is good. Did the sweep who inspected it go in the attic?

No, he didn’t go to attic.
As the repair you mean the crack on the surface? Would it be a big job or a crack sealer from Home Depot would do the job?
What is a crown?