Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess

[freeburn]

Hypothetically, would the IS still be able to burn with secondary burn if the cat were removed or plugged and run in bypass mode?

Not being able to see this stove in person, I'm not sure what the inside looks like. Could someone with an IS post a pic or a link of the upper inside of the firebox. I've looked all over and can't find anything. I've seen the drawing on the WS page, but that doesn't show from the front. Sorry, I research everything to death before committing. Thanks for being patient!

 

[Babaganoosh]

If you don't engage the cat it will run with secondaries. In theory you could remove the cat element if you wanted.

The secondaries come from a plate, not a tube.

 

[Babaganoosh]

Here's some pics of both the inside and from the cat area.

Cat disengaged



Cat engaged


Inside the firebox



Looking up inside the firebox

 

[freeburn]

Here's some pics of both the inside and from the cat area.

Cat disengaged

View attachment 172172

Cat engaged
View attachment 172173

Inside the firebox

View attachment 172174

Looking up inside the firebox

View attachment 172175

Perfect. Thanks! Do you have firebrick or soapstone inside the firebox?

 

[Babaganoosh]

That's the firebrick. I don't think you need to get the soapstone but here's the thing. If you don't get it you will probably wonder how the stove would perform with it.

If you get it on sale with "the works" it's better than getting things a la cart. I didn't go for soapstone side medallions because I had a corner install. You aren't going to see them anyway. However by the time I added the ash pan (works amazingly well, glad I got it) and the dragon andirons I might as well gotten the works.

I might order the soapstone liner someday due to curiosity but as of now I don't really see a need for it. I think it's another thing they have as an add on as a money maker since they deal in soapstone anyway. They can just take the scrap pieces that would usually be garbage and make them into liner pieces and charge more money. That's what I'd do anyway.

 

[Highbeam]

The Blaze king has a thermostat but where is the soapstone?

Once you get a stove with proper slow burning capabilities, the soapstone is of no value.

 

[Highbeam]

Btw, you still can get a light show in the Drolet Tundra.

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The op wants more burn time than the nc30 he already has. The wood furnace world does not value long burn times. That tundra has about the same size box and lower burn times than the nc30.

 

[Highbeam]

I currently am running both an nc30 and a princess and it is 51 degrees outside. No flames from the princess right now but it won't overheat my house and I can wait 30 hours between reloads. No Woodstock can do that. It is very important to have the widest possible range of output when you are actually using wood for your heat.

 

[pdxdave]

Hypothetically, would the IS still be able to burn with secondary burn if the cat were removed or plugged and run in bypass mode?

Not being able to see this stove in person, I'm not sure what the inside looks like. Could someone with an IS post a pic or a link of the upper inside of the firebox. I've looked all over and can't find anything. I've seen the drawing on the WS page, but that doesn't show from the front. Sorry, I research everything to death before committing. Thanks for being patient!

Definately. In my opinion it would easily rate among the best low-burning 'tube' stoves on the market. I've never done a full cycle without engaging the cat, but my impression is a good load of wood could easily go 8-10 hours between loads. It dampers down to extremely low, but well sustained, secondary flames.

 

[pdxdave]

I currently am running both an nc30 and a princess and it is 51 degrees outside. No flames from the princess right now but it won't overheat my house and I can wait 30 hours between reloads. No Woodstock can do that. It is very important to have the widest possible range of output when you are actually using wood for your heat.

No arguments there, the BK seems to do what no other stoves can do in the long burn. Im happy to get reliable overnight burns but with the softwood I burn dont get a ton of heat after 12 hours, though it can go a bit longer and still load on coals.

 

[jetsam]

I've never had a tube stove, but my understanding is that it burns off the VOCs in the wood like a cat, just less efficiently.

What is the point to having reburn tubes AND a cat, if the cat is more efficient to start with? Is it a cosmetic thing for the pretty flames?

Nothing against the stove, just trying to understand the design goal in having both reburners in there.

(P.S. I am sad because it is 45 degrees outside tonight, so my BK is back to being a black box... but it gets cold again tomorrow! )

 

[freeburn]

Tonight into Monday we are scheduled to be -15 before the windchill (-35-40 projected). Would be nice to see what the IS or the BK would do in this weather vs the NC30 for burn times vs overall heat. I just think that the NC30 allows too much heat out the chimney when it's cruising for an hour or so at 7-800 even when trying to keep it from getting that high, chimney temps just too high.
Currently I'm averaging 4-5 hour burn times before having to reload when it gets this cold.

Highbeam - Since you own both, does your NC30 create more heat or the Blaze king when you need it? I know the BK can be tempered enough for a low slow burn if needed. Is a cat stove when running on high going to burn longer than a tube stove when more heat is needed or are they about the same?

 

[LocustBurner]

Definately. In my opinion it would easily rate among the best low-burning 'tube' stoves on the market. I've never done a full cycle without engaging the cat, but my impression is a good load of wood could easily go 8-10 hours between loads. It dampers down to extremely low, but well sustained, secondary flames.

There are a LOT of happy Ideal Steel owners out there. Its probably one of THE best engineered units available.

 

[Highbeam]

Tonight into Monday we are scheduled to be -15 before the windchill (-35-40 projected). Would be nice to see what the IS or the BK would do in this weather vs the NC30 for burn times vs overall heat. I just think that the NC30 allows too much heat out the chimney when it's cruising for an hour or so at 7-800 even when trying to keep it from getting that high, chimney temps just too high.
Currently I'm averaging 4-5 hour burn times before having to reload when it gets this cold.

Highbeam - Since you own both, does your NC30 create more heat or the Blaze king when you need it? I know the BK can be tempered enough for a low slow burn if needed. Is a cat stove when running on high going to burn longer than a tube stove when more heat is needed or are they about the same?

When I run the nc30, I aim to hold 700 on the stovetop and can go through a full load in three hours. I agree that a lot of heat is being blown up the chimney, noncats just aren't efficient but it does burn clean and was cheap. The nc30 heats my shop and may occasionally burn things that might poison a cat.

The bk couldn't burn a load that fast. I've honestly never tried but one member runs his at 100% regularly, Poindexter, and I recall him getting 10+ hours going full blast. Both stoves are the same size and at 800 both make the same heat so the difference between three hours and 10 is all efficiency.

The IS is a good stove if you don't mind a stove that can't be run on low. It would be my second choice if no bk was available. Heck, the bks can run twice as long on the same fuel. More efficiently too. Again, if you only need 12 hours you could make do with an IS or a bk.

 

[LocustBurner]

A firebox lined with soapstone firebricks will reach higher temperatures than traditional ceramic firebrick.
This high temperature environment contributes to a more complete and efficient burn which converts more of your wood into heat.
All while producing less smoke and creosote.

Soapstone has an exceptional ability to absorb this intense firebox heat and slowly radiate it into the room over a long period of time.
This heat can still be radiating into your room up to 12 hours after the fire goes out which creates a more even and comfortable heat.

 

[OhioBurner©]

No Woodstock can do that. It is very important to have the widest possible range of output when you are actually using wood for your heat.

You like to pick on woodstock a lot, but you could have instead said that probably no other stove could do that, not just Woodstock. Do you not think there are thousands of other stove users out there using something other than BK and "actually using wood for heat" and doing it well? We've pretty much all agreed that the BK can go a little lower, but if this is much of a benefit depends on the situation. I am literally ecstatic about the low burn capabilities of the IS compared to the several other stoves I have had. Oh and its suppose to be close to zero tonight with negative teens windchill, so not much worry about low burns here.

I've never had a tube stove, but my understanding is that it burns off the VOCs in the wood like a cat, just less efficiently.

What is the point to having reburn tubes AND a cat, if the cat is more efficient to start with? Is it a cosmetic thing for the pretty flames?

Nothing against the stove, just trying to understand the design goal in having both reburners in there.

(P.S. I am sad because it is 45 degrees outside tonight, so my BK is back to being a black box... but it gets cold again tomorrow! )

This is going back to the basics again, but a cat stove is most efficient for a low and slow burn. Catalyst can operate at a lower temperature, I believe down to 500º ish they say. Burn tubes are more efficient for a high burn, they operate at like 1,000º. So with both technologies you can be burning peak efficiency whether you're running a low or high burn. The addition of the secondary burn probably isn't a huge deal, but I doubt it increases the cost of the stove by a huge amount either, and ensures during high burn that the stove is still burning clean and not overloading the cat with smoke at a faster rate than it can handle. They do put on a nice show of flames as well. Some have said the addition of the secondary burn have allowed them to perhaps save on the cat some too since it is a smaller cat than what other cat-only stoves use.

As far as the soapstone goes, I don't really worry about it being any kind of performance upgrade for the IS, it's mainly cosmetic. The extra retained heat for me is of about as little value as being able to run a BK for more than 24 hours. I don't really utilize that very much. You could probably get much more benefit from building a larger mass hearth than from the difference of firebrick and soapstone. I got the soapstone fenders with the custom artwork that help to make the stove look nice, and it would have been as cheap to get 'the works' then to omit the liner, so why not get it? If you don't need the rest of the works, I wouldn't fret too much about the liner either, IMO. But functionally I do hope the soapstone might last longer and be more accidental impact proof when you shove a round in to hard compared to brick.

 

[HarvestMan]

You like to pick on woodstock a lot, but you could have instead said that probably no other stove could do that, not just Woodstock. Do you not think there are thousands of other stove users out there using something other than BK and "actually using wood for heat" and doing it well?

Don't let any of the convective stove owners bother you. Some are like the stoves they own, generally burning low but some times blowing hard.

I rather enjoy reading their posts and do pick up some good information from time to time. There does seem to be a mysterious force that compels them to post the same basic message over and over. As mysterious as the attractive girl that is compelled to send out daily selfies even though she knows and everyone else knows she is attractive.

 

[Woody Stover]

with both technologies you can be burning peak efficiency whether you're running a low or high burn. The addition of the secondary burn....ensures during high burn that the stove is still burning clean and not overloading the cat with smoke at a faster rate than it can handle.

That's what I see in my Woodstock cats, and BK owners report the same thing; If you open up the air trying to get more heat, you can look at the stack and see smoke that has blown past the cat. Besides having secondary burn, the IS has tweaked it further by adding thermostatically-controlled cat air to also get a cleaner cat burn at higher burn rates. My little Dutchwest 2460 does the same thing with a manually adjustable cat air valve, where I can give the cat more air when I have the primary air set a little higher. With secondary burn capability, you can also recover house temp more quickly than you can with cat-only, if the need arises. The IS can throw serious heat when needed.
Go ahead and get a BK if you want. For myself, I prefer versatility in burn capability and installation options, a no-hassle ash-handling system, and legendary Woodstock quality. It's what scientists refer to as "elegance." To get all that for a reasonable price makes it so much the better. I'm awaiting with interest the beta reports on the new 211, basically a smaller IS. I have a feeling that puppy is going to be my next main stove, with the Keystone assuming the back-up role.

 

[Highbeam]

This is a stove forum guys, what did you expect? There are only two manufacturers making stoves that are head and shoulders above the rest for serious home heating. Bk and Woodstock. Some other brands are good but none as great as these. So now we have to choose amongst the best. If you need rear vent then you must go Woodstock. If you prefer higher performance then you can't beat the bk.

I would not want a hybrid stove when a real cat stove is available. They are the worst of both worlds and Woodstock blew their opportunity to make an oversized fireview that had competitive burn times. With the hybrid you get short burn times, only half as long as the bk as well as a cat converter that comes with extra costs, maintenance, and complication over a noncat. If it really was the best of both worlds then it would burn twice as long and never clog. Hey, bk made a mistake too, the 20 series stoves are lower performance than the 30 series.

Again, these two brands are at the head of the class but the Woodstock camp are sore losers when nosed out at the finish line.

Let's put it this way, what can your Woodstock do that the bk can't do better? I'll start, rear vent. Typically cleaner glass due to the high burn rates.

 

[Woody Stover]

what can your Woodstock do that the bk can't do better?

The BK can take twice as much of your money when you replace the cat. That's better...for somebody.

 

[OhioBurner©]

I think they take a bit more when you buy it the first time too...

Without owning or at least running a BK I can't compare the medium and higher burns to see if the BK could keep up with the IS.

 

[Highbeam]

The BK can take twice as much of your money when you replace the cat. That's better...for somebody.

I was concerned about that too but the story is actually pretty funny. The cat costs more because it is much bigger. Cost is proportional to size. See, when you want to build the most efficient stove you need a bigger cat. When all you want to do is supplement a noncat you can use a small one.

On stove cost, the base princess costs the same as the base IS brand new at my local stove shop. The nc30 still costs less than half as much at 800$.

 

[Woody Stover]

I was concerned about that too but the story is actually pretty funny. The cat costs more because it is much bigger. Cost is proportional to size. See, when you want to build the most efficient stove you need a bigger cat. When all you want to do is supplement a noncat you can use a small one. On stove cost, the base princess costs the same as the base IS brand new at my local stove shop. The nc30 still costs less than half as much at 800$.

Pretty sure they are not twice as big. Woodstock has some of the lowest prices on all replacement parts, of any maker. As far as efficiency, I think the BKs and Woody hybrids are all rated around 80%. There are other hybrids hitting the market as well, and other cat-only stoves as well. I wish I had a Regency dealer nearby to check those hybrids out. But let's face it, the vast majority of buyers want nothing to do with any type of cat, and want the perceived simplicity of only one lever. That's why there aren't a whole lot of these nerd cat-type stoves out there.
Maybe at your local stove shop they are that cheap because you are so close to the plant. Most others from around the country are reporting much higher prices.
At any rate, I've said my piece a couple of posts back. I think the OP has enough input at this point to do his research and decide.

 

[JA600L]

This is a stove forum guys, what did you expect? There are only two manufacturers making stoves that are head and shoulders above the rest for serious home heating. Bk and Woodstock. Some other brands are good but none as great as these. So now we have to choose amongst the best. If you need rear vent then you must go Woodstock. If you prefer higher performance then you can't beat the bk.

I would not want a hybrid stove when a real cat stove is available. They are the worst of both worlds and Woodstock blew their opportunity to make an oversized fireview that had competitive burn times. With the hybrid you get short burn times, only half as long as the bk as well as a cat converter that comes with extra costs, maintenance, and complication over a noncat. If it really was the best of both worlds then it would burn twice as long and never clog. Hey, bk made a mistake too, the 20 series stoves are lower performance than the 30 series.

Again, these two brands are at the head of the class but the Woodstock camp are sore losers when nosed out at the finish line.

Let's put it this way, what can your Woodstock do that the bk can't do better? I'll start, rear vent. Typically cleaner glass due to the high burn rates.

Can you describe your experience running a woodstock hybrid? I know I can't say anything bad about Blaze King because I never ran one.

 

[begreen]

Both stoves are the same size and at 800 both make the same heat so the difference between three hours and 10 is all efficiency.

Wouldn't it also be burn rate? If the BK tops out at say 50KBTUs/hr and the 30NC is being forced to burn at 90KBTUs/hr, efficiency is not in the equation. That is like saying a Prius in not efficient because it only gets 30mpg at 95mph.