Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess
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jetsam
Minister of Fire
OK, BK owners flame (err, smolder) away!
*sigh* Taking up the torch as requested.
I tell my BK to keep it at 75 in the living room. That means that if it's 10° outside, I have a roaring fire in the stove; if it's 50° outside, I have a black box that emits heat but not light. (To clarify, you set a thermostat on the stove to the desired stovebox temperature, not to the desired room temperature... so to keep the same room temp for a week, you'll adjust the thermostat up and down as outdoor temps change.)
The harder you run it, the more light show you get, in other words. I've had a nice visible fire in the stove every night through these last couple weeks of cold weather. Someone with my setup and better insulation would get less of a light show (but use less wood!).
LocustBurner
Member
You're correct, if the t-stat is turned down below 1 1/2(on my stove) the fans do not influence burn times since the t-stat is closed. Ain't no way the stove is gonna heat anything close to 2600sq' in WI without another heat source taking up the slack burning that low. A BK on low is close to the equivalent of a couple 1500W space heaters.
I do like the secondaries in the IS for their entertainment value... they can be pretty fun to watch besides the heat and clean burn. You can throttle it back to a pure cat burn much like the BK's, with no visible flame at all. Sometimes you get some random secondary action then too, for short bits. But open it up a tad and you do get a nice show. The control is good enough you can fine tune the secondaries to a degree, sometimes just the floating wispy flames, sometimes gentle blue cylinders under the secondary holes, to micro tornadoes of hell fire that drill round holes into the top pieces of wood. I've had two other secondary tube stoves and this one is the most impressive to watch.
In pure cat mode, most of the heat is coming off the top of the stove, but you can feel it radiating pretty evenly. For anything more than a pure cat burn a lot of heat comes out through the front glass too.
I don't recall the exact stove temps but seems often after a 14hr day its in the 250-300 range, with maybe around 600 on the cat probe. I need to start making a log and recording some info I guess. Sometimes a pretty thick coal bed is left and can actually warm the stove temp back up another 50 degrees after a stir and opening the air up more. But realize this stove was over 700 lbs on the shipping box, so while 250-300º doesn't sound like much it's still a decent amount of heat from all that surface area and mass. My Jotul c550 at 250 to 300 degrees didn't throw out hardly any heat.
besides the heat and clean burn. You can throttle it back to a pure cat burn much like the BK's, with no visible flame at all. Sometimes you get some random secondary action then too, for short bits. But open it up a tad and you do get a nice show. The control is good enough you can fine tune the secondaries to a degree, sometimes just the floating wispy flames, sometimes gentle blue cylinders under the secondary holes, to micro tornadoes of hell fire that drill round holes into the top pieces of wood. I've had two other secondary tube stoves and this one is the most impressive to watch.In pure cat mode, most of the heat is coming off the top of the stove, but you can feel it radiating pretty evenly. For anything more than a pure cat burn a lot of heat comes out through the front glass too.
I am burning ash I scrounged fall of '14. I have a ton of ecobricks too that I really haven't had the chance to experiment with yet (I expect longer burn times with those). On the milder days I've mostly been burning junk wood that I had laying on the ground for a couple of years that got half rotted (but later dried of course). House temp can't really be translated well. My house is pretty lossy and I usually have 2 stoves running below 40ºF out. I generally aim for 68º to 70º but the last two winters endured many days in the 50's during the polar vortex and cold spells with my previous stoves. Even now with room temp being around 70 or so there are some spots on exterior walls my IR gun will read into the 40's.
I don't recall the exact stove temps but seems often after a 14hr day its in the 250-300 range, with maybe around 600 on the cat probe. I need to start making a log and recording some info I guess. Sometimes a pretty thick coal bed is left and can actually warm the stove temp back up another 50 degrees after a stir and opening the air up more. But realize this stove was over 700 lbs on the shipping box, so while 250-300º doesn't sound like much it's still a decent amount of heat from all that surface area and mass. My Jotul c550 at 250 to 300 degrees didn't throw out hardly any heat.
Like I said, I never ran a BK but I assume it's like other cat stoves I've run; Find the sweet spot for the air setting and, depending on conditions in the firebox you can have big flame, wispy floaters, whatever you want. You may have to tweak the air as you go to maintain the flame...
Yikes, sounds like some weatherization might be in order for the off-season.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
We've been down this road enough times...
The Ideal Steel is a legit cat stove. It is also a legit secondary burner. It is capable of a full low smoldering cat only burn. It is capable of doing everything a tube stove can do. Ignore those that know nothing about it.
This is all controlled by where you set the air. Set it to closed and the cat will simmer on smoke. Set it a couple hash marks open and expect some cat and secondary throughout the burn. Set it higher up the scale and it will blast heat from the secondaries and the cat provides back up. The cat has its own air bimetallic strip so it can get oxygen during a high burn.
No it does not have a thermostat but most stoves don't and can still heat a house fine. I have an 1800 sqft ranch with some added insulation and windows. 2x4 drafty walls. I work 10-12 hours and heat from the insulated basement.
It doesn't matter if it's 30 degrees out or 0 degrees out my house stays in the 70's. Even after my usual 10+ hour days I don't even worry about the stove when I'm gone. If it's mild out I fill it every 24 hours. If it's freezing cold out I can still get my 10+ hours with no worries.
A lot of people on this forum want to discredit the Ideal Steel. Why? Because hybrids were a failed design by Blaze King years ago. This is not a failed design. It is a well built stove loaded with technology and convenience more then capable of heating your home for a long time.
I am in no way opposed to you buying a Blaze King. I have nothing bad to say about them because I never ran one. Just like those with Blaze Kings never burned the Ideal Steel. Keep that in mind.
The Ideal Steel is a legit cat stove. It is also a legit secondary burner. It is capable of a full low smoldering cat only burn. It is capable of doing everything a tube stove can do. Ignore those that know nothing about it.
This is all controlled by where you set the air. Set it to closed and the cat will simmer on smoke. Set it a couple hash marks open and expect some cat and secondary throughout the burn. Set it higher up the scale and it will blast heat from the secondaries and the cat provides back up. The cat has its own air bimetallic strip so it can get oxygen during a high burn.
No it does not have a thermostat but most stoves don't and can still heat a house fine. I have an 1800 sqft ranch with some added insulation and windows. 2x4 drafty walls. I work 10-12 hours and heat from the insulated basement.
It doesn't matter if it's 30 degrees out or 0 degrees out my house stays in the 70's. Even after my usual 10+ hour days I don't even worry about the stove when I'm gone. If it's mild out I fill it every 24 hours. If it's freezing cold out I can still get my 10+ hours with no worries.
A lot of people on this forum want to discredit the Ideal Steel. Why? Because hybrids were a failed design by Blaze King years ago. This is not a failed design. It is a well built stove loaded with technology and convenience more then capable of heating your home for a long time.
I am in no way opposed to you buying a Blaze King. I have nothing bad to say about them because I never ran one. Just like those with Blaze Kings never burned the Ideal Steel. Keep that in mind.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
![[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess](/talk/data/attachments/172/172130-ba7ca5e5459b1a55deb63a7a3379b38b.jpg?hash=9UgK-ujMas)
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I wouldn't call 14 hours out of a firebox that size a low smoldering burn. Damn, I get burn times longer than that on medium-high (i.e. dial setting of 2.3'ish on 1-3 scale).
The advantage of the BK is simple, you can choose any rate of burn you like. The Woodstock would do fine, if you have no interest in ever actually burning low, but what do you plan to do on days when it's 55F outside... burn oil?
lol... THREE hours? Come back and show us what it's doing 30 hours into the burn. Again, here's one of our little BK Ashfords at 24 hours:
![[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/172/172133-7acfde82738f60a4e0c9285575774e61.jpg?hash=wlaa2n2sho "[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess")
![[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/172/172134-ada811330e7ca2fa4938811522028ce9.jpg?hash=vHOa1CVrrs "[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess")
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JA600L
Minister of Fire
I didn't say it is a blaze king with a thermostat. I said it is capable of burning as a cat stove would. If you want to burn low and slow like you are enjoy your blaze king. Your comparing two totally different stoves what do you expect?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
What the OP hasn't said, unless I missed it, is whether they need top or rear flue. It's been a while since I perused the catalogs, but isn't the Princess still top vent, and all or most Woodstocks still rear vent?
As much a hard time as I'm giving you JA600L, there was a time in 2012 when I was considering buying a Woodstock, since there was no way I was going to stick a King or Princess in my house (too ugly). I couldn't do Woodstock in the end, due to the rear vent and side loading requirements, which is why I ended up with a small army of Jotul Firelights. The OP hasn't really said much on these requirements.
As much a hard time as I'm giving you JA600L, there was a time in 2012 when I was considering buying a Woodstock, since there was no way I was going to stick a King or Princess in my house (too ugly). I couldn't do Woodstock in the end, due to the rear vent and side loading requirements, which is why I ended up with a small army of Jotul Firelights. The OP hasn't really said much on these requirements.
So when there are flames in the box, they are using most of the oxygen, then the cat air opens up? I've got a dedicated cat air valve on the Dutchwest but I never run much flame in the box once the cat is burning. Valve is usually left at 1/2 turn open. Manual says to open it more at higher burn. Just now the cat was cranking about 1200 or so, primary air pretty low, and I played with the cat air a little bit. Opened one turn, it seemed to burn more of the smoke before it got to the cat. I really don't understand this valve, gonna have to experiment more. The thought occurred to me that I might be able to use it to facilitate a quicker light-off...
JA600L
Minister of Fire
The air supply I am referring to is a simple bimetallic strip that opens and closes as per the stove body temperature. Obviously the hotter the stove body, the more the strip opens. It is normally closed.
I had mentioned in an earlier post that I can do either, but top vent is preferred anyway with my room/hearth situation.
On another note, I just don't think the Princess is going to do it for me lookwise. Just a bit too ugly. This stove is in a living area in basement, so looks are important.
Leaning a bit more toward the IS and so is the wife. I do however like the Ashford look, but not so much the price. The search continues.
IS-top or rear, PH-top or rear, Fireview-rear only (top of the stove hinges up,) Keystone/Palladian-top or rear. Clearly, unsurpassed engineering.
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
You'll forget the price pretty damn quick, especially in light of the $ you'll be saving on your heating bill. Buy what will make you happy five years from now, if you can swing it today.
I already forgot what I paid for my BK's, and I bought two on the same day last year.
I already forgot what I paid for my BK's, and I bought two on the same day last year.
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JA600L
Minister of Fire
The good news is you can't lose. Pick either one based on your budget and looks and your set. If you consider a normal 10-12 hour burn target they are both very close in performance.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
HarvestMan
Burning Hunk
This is true, but it does not tell the whole story. The casual reader may see this as dismissive of the hybrid tech and suggestive that BK found no merit in it. As one whom sits on the fence with regards to hybrid tech, I made a point of asking BKVP about it on the AS site. This is his response:
"In 1983, Blaze King made the Princess 1000. It had two sources for air. One for four air tubes to feed fresh air to the cat and the primary air for the firebox itself. This was the time of avocado colored appliances and "hybrid" was not a buzz word.
Well, as it turns out, it was indeed a hybrid wood stove. So why did we stop selling them? First, they sold fine and were quite well favored. But, they were costly. In 1984, one year later, we developed a cat only stove that was cleaner burning, 2% more efficient and several hundred dollars less costly at retail. That model King 1101 was the very first stove certified in Oregon's Wood Stove Certification program, which predates the EPA rules of 1988.
If you compare emissions and efficiency numbers to actual retail costs of different technologies, you will find that while avocado appliances are no longer, the cost associated with additional technology has not disappeared. "
Well, as it turns out, it was indeed a hybrid wood stove. So why did we stop selling them? First, they sold fine and were quite well favored. But, they were costly. In 1984, one year later, we developed a cat only stove that was cleaner burning, 2% more efficient and several hundred dollars less costly at retail. That model King 1101 was the very first stove certified in Oregon's Wood Stove Certification program, which predates the EPA rules of 1988.
If you compare emissions and efficiency numbers to actual retail costs of different technologies, you will find that while avocado appliances are no longer, the cost associated with additional technology has not disappeared. "
My take is BK dropped hybrid because of cost and because it does not fit with its goal of long burn times. Interestingly Hearthstone once produced cat stoves but they no longer do; it would be equally misleading to suggest one not get caught up in the cat talk as Hearthstone gave up on it years ago.
I am curious to see how Woodstock's "Race to Zero" emissions goal unfolds. While I personally favor "tried and true" cat tech for the stove I own, I am glad that others are embracing these hybrid designs and I enjoy reading their experiences.
While the IS nor the Princess are going to win any beauty contests they are both capable stoves with performance at or near the top of the heap.
To me it would come down to how well insulated your home is. 2600sq ft in the Midwest could be a huge task for any stove in a leaky house. If your house is lacking in insulation I would take advantage of the BTU's that the Ideal Steel can provide. If, on the other hand, your home is fairly tight then the Princess would get the nod from me for the unmatched long burn times and the set it and forget it T-stat.
To me it would come down to how well insulated your home is. 2600sq ft in the Midwest could be a huge task for any stove in a leaky house. If your house is lacking in insulation I would take advantage of the BTU's that the Ideal Steel can provide. If, on the other hand, your home is fairly tight then the Princess would get the nod from me for the unmatched long burn times and the set it and forget it T-stat.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
One thing that I absolutely love about Woodstock is they are transparent about everything. If you buy one of their stoves you can read detailed blogs about the technology behind it. That is incredible to be given so much information and technical data. The other thing I love is the serviceability. I can take this entire stove apart very easily. If anything fails down the road it is very easy to work on. The parts are nothing fancy. In a pinch I'm sure I could have a local machine shop make them.
Babaganoosh
Minister of Fire
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to see what an IS could do if it was mated with the BK type thermostat.
That really is the key to the long burns. Technology and long burn wise it's perfect to have your stove constantly adjusting itself for an even burn. The only way to do that without it is to continually sit at your stove and open and close different air valves based on temperatures. What's even better is that it's done without any electricity.
Personally I hate the look of the princess and the king. The Ashford and Sirocco look sweet but I wasn't positive they would put out enough btus for my house (heating from a den that was a garage about as far from centrally located as can be) so I went with an IS. I did like the factory direct option because I did my own installation.
As someone said above a 1000 dollar price difference shouldn't be the deciding factor. Your gonna have the stove for many years. If you can't afford the 1000 then obviously you have to go with the lesser option.
That really is the key to the long burns. Technology and long burn wise it's perfect to have your stove constantly adjusting itself for an even burn. The only way to do that without it is to continually sit at your stove and open and close different air valves based on temperatures. What's even better is that it's done without any electricity.
Personally I hate the look of the princess and the king. The Ashford and Sirocco look sweet but I wasn't positive they would put out enough btus for my house (heating from a den that was a garage about as far from centrally located as can be) so I went with an IS. I did like the factory direct option because I did my own installation.
As someone said above a 1000 dollar price difference shouldn't be the deciding factor. Your gonna have the stove for many years. If you can't afford the 1000 then obviously you have to go with the lesser option.
JA600L
Minister of Fire
16 hours into the burn. There are a lot of btus still in there. Maybe not as many as in a blaze king, but it's really not too far off. It's still keeping my house comfortable in the 70's. I won't need to reload until tonight.
I'm not trying to say this is comparable to Blaze King, but it is able to burn lower and slower then a secondary burner. Mainly because the firebox temperature can be kept very low throughout the burn.
I'm not trying to say this is comparable to Blaze King, but it is able to burn lower and slower then a secondary burner. Mainly because the firebox temperature can be kept very low throughout the burn.
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![[Hearth.com] Advice: Ideal Steel or Blaze King Princess](/talk/data/attachments/172/172160-7183778e0a26a33040432d6ccb4202cf.jpg?hash=2iniH-XeBG)
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It will go well past 14 hours, but most people don't need that long of a burn. I think the point was it would run with no flames at all, black firebox. I call that a low smoldering burn regardless of whether it is a small load of softer wood for 8 hours or a day long burn.
BK seems to have a lower burn advantage for sure, but it's almost to the point of splitting hairs. 55ºF...? I could get by without heating with anything at that temp (especially a sunny day) and maybe a little space heater on low in the bedroom for a little while at night. I don't buy a woodstove to worry about 55º days. Even if you used oil so what, wouldn't take much oil at all on days like that? That being said I'm sure you could utilize the low burn still, even if its a couple/few thousand btu's higher. In my case going from a stove capable of 8hr to 14+ hr burn times is a huge deal. Much beyond 16hrs though really doesn't make that much difference to me, just IMHO. If one was in a milder climate with a lot more days above 40, the BK might have more of an advantage, or perhaps if you were the type to do things after work, or spend nights out or something where you needed a load to last through the next day.
Both Woodstocks current hybrids can horizontal or vertical vent, they are very flexible. Not only does the BK only vertical vent, as I recall they want a minimum vertical rise before an elbow too.
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