2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 3 (Everything BK)

[bens_igloo]

Hi all,

I am questioning the effectiveness of the CAT in my BK princess installed this season and burning regularly since Sept this year. I am looking for some views to confirm if this is the case or if the behavior is normal.

After closing the bypass it takes a little while for the gray smoke to dissapear and I hear this is normal. However even throughout the burn there is white smoke that dissipates pretty quickly but not instantly. My chimney goes out through the roof, and looking out from the window I can sometimes see puffs of smoke dissapear. Maybe that helps to explain what I see. I looked down the chimney this weekend and there isn't a huge amount of creosote, but it is quite oily (I think it is oil, maybe something else though?)

When I compare it to my non-cat stove (PE Summit) there is definitely more smoke and more smell.
Visual inspection of the cat shows no cracks, peeling, or warping.

A bit of information about my setup:
- I am burning fully seasoned (2-3 year ash)
- I checked for air-leaks around the door and there are none
- Stove has never been over-fired.
- I always wait until the thermometer is in the active zone to close the by-pass. I've also always opened the by-pass before opening the door.
- I burn the stove on high for maybe 30 minutes a day, but never let it go above the the top of the active zone on the BK thermometer.

 

[lsucet]

Hi all,

I am questioning the effectiveness of the CAT in my BK princess installed this season and burning regularly since Sept this year. I am looking for some views to confirm if this is the case or if the behavior is normal.

After closing the bypass it takes a little while for the gray smoke to dissapear and I hear this is normal. However even throughout the burn there is white smoke that dissipates pretty quickly but not instantly. My chimney goes out through the roof, and looking out from the window I can sometimes see puffs of smoke dissapear. Maybe that helps to explain what I see. I looked down the chimney this weekend and there isn't a huge amount of creosote, but it is quite oily (I think it is oil, maybe something else though?)

When I compare it to my non-cat stove (PE Summit) there is definitely more smoke and more smell.
Visual inspection of the cat shows no cracks, peeling, or warping.

A bit of information about my setup:
- I am burning fully seasoned (2-3 year ash)
- I checked for air-leaks around the door and there are none
- Stove has never been over-fired.
- I always wait until the thermometer is in the active zone to close the by-pass. I've also always opened the by-pass before opening the door.
- I burn the stove on high for maybe 30 minutes a day, but never let it go above the the top of the active zone on the BK thermometer.

It does sound to me wood issue. I know you said 2-3 year seasoned but without measure your MC it is hard to tell. What is the MC of the wood?
It's not just amount the years, proper drying is very important. Before move forward with other possible causes i will be sure of the wood MC with a MC meter.

 

[lsucet]

Split a piece that is at room temp and measure it on a fresh split

 

[bens_igloo]

It does sound to me wood issue. I know you said 2-3 year seasoned but without measure your MC it is hard to tell. What is the MC of the wood?
It's not just amount the years, proper drying is very important. Before move forward with other possible causes i will be sure of the wood MC with a MC meter.

Hi Isucet,

I will check the moisture content with my moisture meter and report back. Last time I checked this pile last year it was at 15%. I will say that the wood burns without any issues whatever in my PE Summit and also burned without issues in my regency stove last year at my previous house.

 

[lsucet]

Hi Isucet,

I will check the moisture content with my moisture meter and report back. Last time I checked this pile last year it was at 15%. I will say that the wood burns without any issues whatever in my PE Summit and also burned without issues in my regency stove last year at my previous house.

Another easy test is a dollar bill test on the bypass to see if it is sealing properly

 

[bens_igloo]

Another easy test is a dollar bill test on the bypass to see if it is sealing properly

That I haven't done. I will do that the next time the stove is cold.

 

[Ashful]

What you are describing, white smoke that dissipates quickly, is the classic description of steam. However, some steam, and some water in your wood (eg 15% - 20%) is normal, not necessarily a bad thing.

Likewise with the oily residue, that’s classic condensing creosote. Your Summit likely ran higher flue temps, due to its poorer efficiency, thus avoiding this issue. The higher efficiency and better turn-down ability (both yielding lower flue temps) of cat stoves make them more susceptible to problematic levels of creo condensation.

 

[jetsam]

Go up and smell the smoke. If it smells like woodsmoke, the cat isn't burning it (maybe the cat is too cool, or dead). If it smells like car exhaust and steam, it's steam.

 

[kf6hap]

Make sure the stove is filled full and the load is charred by running the stove at full for~20-30 minutes. This will prepare the load the for best burn. From your description the "smoke" is actually steam. Note that steam can appear as dark smoke when viewed from different angles. It depends on where you and the sun are.

 

[bens_igloo]

Go up and smell the smoke. If it smells like woodsmoke, the cat isn't burning it (maybe the cat is too cool, or dead). If it smells like car exhaust and steam, it's steam.

Definitely don't think the cat is too cool, because it's often glowing.

It doesn't smell of normal smoke dragon wood smoke, more of an acrid acidic smell.

 

[kf6hap]

It doesn't smell of normal smoke dragon wood smoke, more of an acrid acidic smell.

Then your cat is operating! I liken the smell to burning coal. Distinctly different than other non cat stoves.

 

[BKVP]

Yes that is what I noticed and seems all are saying the 10 to 12,000 hour range. I am sure that if I rifle wood through it I could also get as long as I want, fact I could pull the cat and still get heat.

Nice to see you have tried both steel and ceramic, which do you prefer?



This has been done a number of times, but thanks for the heads up.

When I bought this stove the cat came with a 10 year warranty, but I bought a spare. Wonder what that means as this cat would never get 10 full seasons if it is starting to burn noticeably more wood after 2.

Regards

The warranty covers thermal degradation, not performance attributes. Combustors are expected to diminish over time. If they collapse, then that is covered.

 

[Nigel459]

My cold mark has been at 7 o'clock since day 1, I believe. I always thought the start of the active range was a lot lower than labeled, but I figured it was some requirement from the legal department.

Me too!

Mine too!

Mine too!

It’s common for them to lose calibration, sometimes they are off from the factory. I’m pretty sure this is covered in the owners manual...

Yes, just checked in an effort to corroborate the info here and on page 42 of my Sirocco 20.1 manual it says "at room temperature, away from the stove, the indicator should point near the bottom of the "Inactive" zone..." and then explains the adjustment process.

Off to adjust mine!

Thanks all for the heads up

 

[allan5oh]

For the pros of an OAK you missed the *massive* difference in absolute moisture between inside and outdoor air.

(broken link removed to http://web.gccaz.edu/~lnewman/gph111/topic_units/moisture/moisture_stabil_prec/sat_sp_curve.jpg)

 

[kf6hap]

For the pros of an OAK you missed the *massive* difference in absolute moisture between inside and outdoor air.

When cold outside moist air enters a house and becomes warmer it expands and becomes less moist. When the stove's outside air travels through the pre-heating tubes in the stove, it expands and becomes very dry. after passing through the firebox and then the cat it becomes extremely dry due to expansion. The process of combustion combines a lot of hydrogen and oxygen. A lot of water is "created" within the stove itself.

I think the moisture in the outside air will not create visible steam in the stack gasses. If this was true, stack steam would appear every time it rains when the RH is near %100.

 

[Highbeam]

When cold outside moist air enters a house and becomes warmer it expands and becomes less moist. When the stove's outside air travels through the pre-heating tubes in the stove, it expands and becomes very dry. after passing through the firebox and then the cat it becomes extremely dry due to expansion. The process of combustion combines a lot of hydrogen and oxygen. A lot of water is "created" within the stove itself.

I think the moisture in the outside air will not create visible steam in the stack gasses. If this was true, stack steam would appear every time it rains when the RH is near %100.

You’re right. It’s the immense amount of water in the fuel as well as water created during combustion. 20% mc in a 50# wood load is 10# of pure water. That’s like 1.3 gallons!

 

[AlbergSteve]

... or chimney height. I’m running two identical stoves with identical steel cats, and only the one on the tall chimney clogs.

SteelCat clogging became such a problem for me the last two seasons that I just obtained a ceramic cat to replace the perfectly good SteelCat in that one stove. I hope this resolves that problem, but we’ll have to wait until next year, to make that determination. I’m in yard work mode now, and despite today’s snow, the stoves are shut down for this year.

...shut down for the year... it's only the first of April!

 

[SculptureOfSound]

I've got an odd goal I'm trying to achieve here that maybe you BK wizards can help with:

First, the EPA low/high ratings for the Ashford/Sirocco insert are about 10k btu on low and almost 30k on high. Almost all inserts have similar ratings - so how can that be? I know the BKs can burn lower and longer - is the difference that the BK can go down to 10K BTU really early in the burn while the other units even fully dialed back will be well above 10k for quite some time?

So below is the weird goal I'm trying to achieve.

So an output of 10k BTU/hr with roughly 6k BTU per pound of wood(after accounting for 15% moisture and 77% stove efficiency) translates to 1.6 pounds of wood per hour. What would be the best way to burn the least amount of wood and still get coals after say 8 or 10 hours? Could you use a small load of say 8lbs of wood at 10pm, "run it on the hole" and still have coals 8 hours later (8 hours should consume over 13lbs of wood) ? Is there any way to get less output less than 10k BTU/use less than 1.6lb of wood per hour?

I ask because I'd like to run it overnight and have coals in the morning for an easy relight, BUT, we have super cheap natural gas here and honestly I'd rather let the furnace handle the heat load during the night (the insert is at the far end of a long ranch which makes it far less than ideal to heat the bedrooms at opposite end).

So it's kind of an odd situation as I don't need to heat with wood but want to, and yet don't find it sensible to "waste" wood with overnight burns that are generating much heat. Yet I'd really like the convenience of a quick reload in the morning, and then we could burn at 10K (or more if colder) through the day to keep the living area really comfy.

I live in the city and don't have access to free wood (have found some good cheap wood though and have about 4 cords atm, paid $30 a cord). I guess what I am trying to do is get close to the convenience of a gas fireplace but with wood instead.

 

[Ashful]

...shut down for the year... it's only the first of April!

With weekly nor’easters, and thaws between each one, my yard got so soggy in March that there was no hope of moving any useful amount of firewood up to the house, once I depleted the cord I always keep stacked on the porch. Last weekend was the first time it was dry enough that I could actually drive a tractor on those parts of the yard, and I was too busy picking up a billion twigs from that storm that took down so many of our trees three Fridays ago.

I’d like to think I could move some wood next Saturday, but it rained Sunday night, snowed all day yesterday, is raining again today and Friday, and we have more snow forecast for Saturday. Back to swamp land.

I think I need a hovercraft firewood hauler.

 

[woodchipper95]

... or chimney height. I’m running two identical stoves with identical steel cats, and only the one on the tall chimney clogs.

SteelCat clogging became such a problem for me the last two seasons that I just obtained a ceramic cat to replace the perfectly good SteelCat in that one stove. I hope this resolves that problem, but we’ll have to wait until next year, to make that determination. I’m in yard work mode now, and despite today’s snow, the stoves are shut down for this year.

What are the two chimney heights?

 

[Ashful]

What are the two chimney heights?

Roughly 15 and 30 feet.

 

[jetsam]

I've got an odd goal I'm trying to achieve here that maybe you BK wizards can help with:

First, the EPA low/high ratings for the Ashford/Sirocco insert are about 10k btu on low and almost 30k on high. Almost all inserts have similar ratings - so how can that be? I know the BKs can burn lower and longer - is the difference that the BK can go down to 10K BTU really early in the burn while the other units even fully dialed back will be well above 10k for quite some time?

So below is the weird goal I'm trying to achieve.

So an output of 10k BTU/hr with roughly 6k BTU per pound of wood(after accounting for 15% moisture and 77% stove efficiency) translates to 1.6 pounds of wood per hour. What would be the best way to burn the least amount of wood and still get coals after say 8 or 10 hours? Could you use a small load of say 8lbs of wood at 10pm, "run it on the hole" and still have coals 8 hours later (8 hours should consume over 13lbs of wood) ? Is there any way to get less output less than 10k BTU/use less than 1.6lb of wood per hour?

I ask because I'd like to run it overnight and have coals in the morning for an easy relight, BUT, we have super cheap natural gas here and honestly I'd rather let the furnace handle the heat load during the night (the insert is at the far end of a long ranch which makes it far less than ideal to heat the bedrooms at opposite end).

So it's kind of an odd situation as I don't need to heat with wood but want to, and yet don't find it sensible to "waste" wood with overnight burns that are generating much heat. Yet I'd really like the convenience of a quick reload in the morning, and then we could burn at 10K (or more if colder) through the day to keep the living area really comfy.

I live in the city and don't have access to free wood (have found some good cheap wood though and have about 4 cords atm, paid $30 a cord). I guess what I am trying to do is get close to the convenience of a gas fireplace but with wood instead.

That's what BKs DO in shoulder season. Put the wood in once a day, turn it down all the way, you're done. There is no "relight". If heat distribution is poor, use a floor fan to blow cold air from the colder area towards the stove.

There is no pause button once the wood's on fire, unless you want to modify the stove.

 

[jetsam]

With weekly nor’easters, and thaws between each one, my yard got so soggy in March that there was no hope of moving any useful amount of firewood up to the house, once I depleted the cord I always keep stacked on the porch. Last weekend was the first time it was dry enough that I could actually drive a tractor on those parts of the yard, and I was too busy picking up a billion twigs from that storm that took down so many of our trees three Fridays ago.

I’d like to think I could move some wood next Saturday, but it rained Sunday night, snowed all day yesterday, is raining again today and Friday, and we have more snow forecast for Saturday. Back to swamp land.

I think I need a hovercraft firewood hauler.

You need to build an outbuilding with insulated walls and live in that instead. You can sell the skidloader and one of your stoves to finance it, and then save big on hovercrafts and fuel oil and back surgery.

 

[kf6hap]

I guess what I am trying to do is get close to the convenience of a gas fireplace but with wood instead.

One way to go:
Do a hybrid burn. Heat with wood in the daytime and let the furnace thermostatically take over at night. Most people like to sleep in a cooler room so the furnace will only be maintaining an already warm house.

 

[Ashful]

You need to build an outbuilding with insulated walls and live in that instead. [emoji14] You can sell the skidloader and one of your stoves to finance it, and then save big on hovercrafts and fuel oil and back surgery.

You really know how to take all the fun out of this. Think of the style points I’d lose, if I followed your plan.