2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 2 (Everything BK)

[webby3650]

Well, I burn in the load until I have the temp I need to light the cat more or less instantly. That might be 20-30 min. after a long burn where the stove top has dropped down around 200, but I don't want to burn on high for half an hour on every reload and send all that heat into the wild blue yonder. I don't remember if BKVP ever said why they want you to burn on high for 30 min. but I have a guess as to what the reason might be..

I dont always run on high for 30 minutes. But, it’s rarely a problem to do so, the house could usually use a shot of extra heat after a long burn.

 

[black smoke signals]

One a day ECO brick for my BK insert with a full load of spruce.

 

[Ashful]

Hey Woody. I really have not messed with the top down method. Neither do I use kindling. When cold starting I use 1/4 of a S.C. tucked between lower splits. Crack door. Away she goes. Wait for healthy flame to set in and shut the door. As you mentioned it would seem to be a huge waste of fuel to get most if not all the splits burning robustly before shutting down. As I refine my method I have been amazed by how little is truly wasted getting to the happy shut down point. Why it works well can only be attributed to the lengthy, flameless, smokeless, strange burn/perculation that then takes place. My best guess? Dunno.

Your pain is entirely self inflicted. Read your manual. You must burn this stove on HIGH for 30 minutes, AFTER achieving active cat, and only then can you incrementally reduce t’stat setting, to final burn rate setting. Sheesh!

 

[aaronk25]

So I think we have been chasing this smoke smell the wrong way. I had it in a Ashford 30.1 and now a princess. Smoke smell shows up when T-Stat is being turned down. I also have excessive draft and I’m sure others do too. I was at .17 on high (checked though the cat temp probe hole). So I put a supervent flue damper on top of the stove, partly because it fit much better than the stove pipe adapter. Anyhow when dampening the flue down to the manufacture .05 limit the following are the results:
-no smoke smell
-no “V” shaped creosote stain on door
-burn durations as published
-much more visibly even fire at any T-stat position. Way Better.

So without dampening the flue all of the above it’s opposite. So would some of you with the smoke smell issue check the probe hole with a manometer please? Let’s see if you have a overdraft issue. I don’t think this is a BK stove issue more of a out of spec chimney doing to good of a job.

So why would a excessive pressure drop induced from the flue make migrate the smoke out of the stove? It’s sound backwards, I know.

So here is what is going on, I think. The pressure drop is the lowest the stove experiences during the entire burn when the T-stay is turned from full to medium/low. Think about it hot chimney pulling hard and the T-stat slams shut. The air gets stretched and instead of smoothly flowing off the airwash, following the glass down the air actually becomes turbulent at and departs the glass and tumbles and rolls in almost a straight line to the cat due to the extreme pressure drop. This is why when excessive draft exists the glass gets all black and the coals don’t burn down as well. When draft is in spec the glass stays clean, even on low and there is less coaling. The glass is getting dirty and the rope gasket is also getting soaked in smelly creosote cause the airwash isn’t doing it’s job because the air is getting pulled directly off the wash towards the center straight toward the cat which is why we get the dirty “V” shaped glass.

It also might be, under this condition the area outside of the “V” pattern could be under some high pressure due to turbulent air with some pulsing against the rope which is pushing the black creosote out though the rope.

These stoves on low or medium low let so little air though which is partly why they are so darn efficient. The issue I think is most of the chimneys we have even at room temperature will draft at .02-.03, with no extra heat. I think we’re blowing past the design parameters of the stove.

So why no smell on medium high (for most). Well pressure drop is higher in cruise at these settings but the CFM of air moving though the stove is double or triple what it is with the T-stat in the 2pm position. So the air moves faster and the airwash works mostly as intended.

To support this my glass stay cleaner at 2 o’clock position with the correct draft than on high with .17 draft? Make sense?

Also on high at excessive draft I would rip though a load of oak in 3 hours. Now on high it will run 6,7 or 8 hours which is closer to what BK advertises for heat output on high. How many of you have noticed the same thing? Slightly less heat out put now, but not much less, like 5-10% but twice as long of Burns.

Thoughts? So why am I getting so much draft? 1,300ft sea level super vent 6”, 21’, with 6’ of double wall insulated chimney in a framed enclosure. I think the class a insulated keeps more heat in the pipe as well as the wind doesn’t hit it in the enclosure. I got a rise of 4’ then 2-45s then 5’ straight horizontal then a T- up to 2-15s then 18’ straight up. I added the T and flat horizontal for temporary means so I could finish stone work see pic, guys that only reduced the draft by .03 ( I was at .2). No difference in smoke during reloads either. I think people asking questions about t’s or 90 degree fittings causing smoke spillage is only relevant when short stacks are used above the bends. I’m almost certain if I built a quark screw black pipe with 5 bends before the rise the chimney would still suck the draft up fine. Any how my point to all of this is I think a lot of us are way over the draft spec on the stove, and with a blaze king they run better not having excessive draft pulling against the back side of the T stat. Love the stove best piece of equipment I’ve seen.

Aaron

 

[Tegbert]

I run them both with the knob set right around 3:30 o'clock, a setting that gets me consistent 24-hour burns on the shorter chimney, but only 12-hour burns on the taller chimney.

When you say 330 you only turn down your thermostat to about halfway?


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[Poindexter]

This morning, 23:41 into the burn i found an inactive cat, but a small pile of coals.

What can be learned about turning the stove down earlier or later from my last two burns?

 

[black smoke signals]

This morning, 23:41 into the burn i found an inactive cat, but a small pile of coals.

What can be learned about turning the stove down earlier or later from my last two burns?

In the manual is says not to use sapsicles of spruce! Then you will not need a match to start your next load JUST KIDDING

 

[webby3650]

So I think we have been chasing this smoke smell the wrong way. I had it in a Ashford 30.1 and now a princess. Smoke smell shows up when T-Stat is being turned down. I also have excessive draft and I’m sure others do too. I was at .17 on high (checked though the cat temp probe hole). So I put a supervent flue damper on top of the stove, partly because it fit much better than the stove pipe adapter. Anyhow when dampening the flue down to the manufacture .05 limit the following are the results:
-no smoke smell
-no “V” shaped creosote stain on door
-burn durations as published
-much more visibly even fire at any T-stat position. Way Better.

So without dampening the flue all of the above it’s opposite. So would some of you with the smoke smell issue check the probe hole with a manometer please? Let’s see if you have a overdraft issue. I don’t think this is a BK stove issue more of a out of spec chimney doing to good of a job.

So why would a excessive pressure drop induced from the flue make migrate the smoke out of the stove? It’s sound backwards, I know.

So here is what is going on, I think. The pressure drop is the lowest the stove experiences during the entire burn when the T-stay is turned from full to medium/low. Think about it hot chimney pulling hard and the T-stat slams shut. The air gets stretched and instead of smoothly flowing off the airwash, following the glass down the air actually becomes turbulent at and departs the glass and tumbles and rolls in almost a straight line to the cat due to the extreme pressure drop. This is why when excessive draft exists the glass gets all black and the coals don’t burn down as well. When draft is in spec the glass stays clean, even on low and there is less coaling. The glass is getting dirty and the rope gasket is also getting soaked in smelly creosote cause the airwash isn’t doing it’s job because the air is getting pulled directly off the wash towards the center straight toward the cat which is why we get the dirty “V” shaped glass.

It also might be, under this condition the area outside of the “V” pattern could be under some high pressure due to turbulent air with some pulsing against the rope which is pushing the black creosote out though the rope.

These stoves on low or medium low let so little air though which is partly why they are so darn efficient. The issue I think is most of the chimneys we have even at room temperature will draft at .02-.03, with no extra heat. I think we’re blowing past the design parameters of the stove.

So why no smell on medium high (for most). Well pressure drop is higher in cruise at these settings but the CFM of air moving though the stove is double or triple what it is with the T-stat in the 2pm position. So the air moves faster and the airwash works mostly as intended.

To support this my glass stay cleaner at 2 o’clock position with the correct draft than on high with .17 draft? Make sense?

Also on high at excessive draft I would rip though a load of oak in 3 hours. Now on high it will run 6,7 or 8 hours which is closer to what BK advertises for heat output on high. How many of you have noticed the same thing? Slightly less heat out put now, but not much less, like 5-10% but twice as long of Burns.

Thoughts? So why am I getting so much draft? 1,300ft sea level super vent 6”, 21’, with 6’ of double wall insulated chimney in a framed enclosure. I think the class a insulated keeps more heat in the pipe as well as the wind doesn’t hit it in the enclosure. I got a rise of 4’ then 2-45s then 5’ straight horizontal then a T- up to 2-15s then 18’ straight up. I added the T and flat horizontal for temporary means so I could finish stone work see pic, guys that only reduced the draft by .03 ( I was at .2). No difference in smoke during reloads either. I think people asking questions about t’s or 90 degree fittings causing smoke spillage is only relevant when short stacks are used above the bends. I’m almost certain if I built a quark screw black pipe with 5 bends before the rise the chimney would still suck the draft up fine. Any how my point to all of this is I think a lot of us are way over the draft spec on the stove, and with a blaze king they run better not having excessive draft pulling against the back side of the T stat. Love the stove best piece of equipment I’ve seen.



Aaron View attachment 218650


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I don’t know... ? BK spends like a bigillion dollars a year in testing. It’s seems really odd that this would have been overlooked. Overdrafting is causing low draft issues?
Are you sure your draft reading was accurate? That’s one crazy pipe run by the way!

 

[Ashful]

When you say 330 you only turn down your thermostat to about halfway?


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

Yes, sorry, I forgot about the insert folks. My dial has max at 6:00, with about 11 hours of CCW rotation to full stop at 5:00. So, my setting of 3:30 is only turning it down by less than a quarter (23%) from full throttle. This is the setting that gives me 24 hour burns.

If I go just a bit farther, say 3:00 (27% v 23%), I get 30+ hours per load. If you went to half throttle on my stove, you’d flat out kill the fire, a classic stall.

 

[moresnow]

Your pain is entirely self inflicted. Read your manual. You must burn this stove on HIGH for 30 minutes, AFTER achieving active cat, and only then can you incrementally reduce t’stat setting, to final burn rate setting. Sheesh!

Please don't misconstrue my poor/incomplete startup description. Naturally I am completing my hot burn time routine AFTER closing my bypass. Anything less than approximately 3 to 3:30 on the stat will ALWAYS induce the smoke/creo smell. I've been pi--ing with this since day one.
So far no combo will let me turn down any further without stink? Guessing my nominal pipe length in combo with my telescoping single wall connector pipe (dealer sold me on this?) may have some negative affect. Either way I am not complaining as I am getting plenty of burn time at a zero flame setting with no stink. House is warm. Very pleased.
I do plan on installing another 2' Piece of class A as well as replace the single wall indoors with dual wall. Perhaps with a bit of friendly guidance here I'll get to the low setting range many of you are. Hell. My 2 buddies that I convinced to purchase/advised on operation, and installed for are getting those low stat setting results Sheesh!

 

[Highbeam]

I don’t know... ? BK spends like a bigillion dollars a year in testing. It’s seems really odd that this would have been overlooked. Overdrafting is causing low draft issues?
Are you sure your draft reading was accurate? That’s one crazy pipe run by the way!

Bk didn’t overlook it. They publish a hard spec in the manual for draft. IIrc they even say your warranty is void if you exceed it by just an extremely small amount.

When I first installed my princess I had a key damper section in my 12’ chimney. I never used the damper and have since removed it but even with that restriction I didn’t have a smoke problem. Sure, like most I get some rollout when loading if there is lots of fuel burning.

Maybe Aaron is on to something.

Bk has a minimum chimney height requirement but also a draft strength requirement. Which is more important? Obviously, you can’t always hit both specs.

 

[webby3650]

Bk didn’t overlook it. They publish a hard spec in the manual for draft. IIrc they even say your warranty is void if you exceed it by just an extremely small amount.

When I first installed my princess I had a key damper section in my 12’ chimney. I never used the damper and have since removed it but even with that restriction I didn’t have a smoke problem. Sure, like most I get some rollout when loading if there is lots of fuel burning.

Maybe Aaron is on to something.

Bk has a minimum chimney height requirement but also a draft strength requirement. Which is more important? Obviously, you can’t always hit both specs.

I guess that was my point. After all these smoke smell issues, surely overdrafting would have been addressed if that could be the cause.

 

[aaronk25]

I don’t know... ? BK spends like a bigillion dollars a year in testing. It’s seems really odd that this would have been overlooked. Overdrafting is causing low draft issues?
Are you sure your draft reading was accurate? That’s one crazy pipe run by the way!

Over drafting isn’t creating low draft is not letting the air flow though the stove as designed.

Part of the pipe experiment was I needed the stove out of the way to install stone, the 2nd was I wanted to see what additional bends and corners would do to a excessive draft condition.

On the Ashford look at the glass. The “v” the air is being pulled up and off of the glass due to a larger than normal pressure drop at the cat. The cat is literally sucking the air off the glass. Not rolling down the entire glass door, which would be the normal flow of air into the fire.

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[aaronk25]

I guess that was my point. After all these smoke smell issues, surely overdrafting would have been addressed if that could be the cause.

Also I noticed now without the correct draft at the end of the burn with just some coals remaining the cat stays active hours longer. This am inraked the oak coals to the front and though 2 2x6s in the back to burn down the coals. It’s been running for 6 hours like that with a active cat. With over draft there would have been coals left behind and the cat would have went inactive due to what I believe is excessive air going straight from the air wash to the cat, cooling it causing a de-active cat.

Previously I would never let the coals burn down out of fear I would cause cat issues by running it in active, plus the wife would complain due to lack of heat.


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[webby3650]

Over drafting isn’t creating low draft is not letting the air flow though the stove as designed.

Part of the pipe experiment was I needed the stove out of the way to install stone, the 2nd was I wanted to see what additional bends and corners would do to a excessive draft condition.

On the Ashford look at the glass. The “v” the air is being pulled up and off of the glass due to a larger than normal pressure drop at the cat. The cat is literally sucking the air off the glass. Not rolling down the entire glass door, which would be the normal flow of air into the fire.

View attachment 218658


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Na, that’s a normal glass for a BK. It changed for some reason in your situation, but that is the famous hour glass pattern on the glass.
It’s worse for folks that run low, better for ones that run on higher settings.

 

[BKVP]

Well, I burn in the load until I have the temp I need to light the cat more or less instantly. That might be 20-30 min. after a long burn where the stove top has dropped down around 200, but I don't want to burn on high for half an hour on every reload and send all that heat into the wild blue yonder. I don't remember if BKVP ever said why they want you to burn on high for 30 min. but I have a guess as to what the reason might be..

Our entire industry has recognized the need to deal with moisture, which you well know is the first stage of combustion, at higher temperatures. All manufacturers are pushing for more education on this point. Was that you assumption?

 

[oldbluedeer]

I sure hope people aren’t reading this thread and being scared off from owning a BK. Here’s my reload/fire starting procedure: put wood in the stove, close the bypass, set the tstat to desired setting, walk away... repeat approximately 24 hours later. It’s so simple!

Ha ha. People should be wary, before investing time and money on a new stove installation. This is a good place to understand the full spectrum of customer experience these stoves, both good and bad.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Only the “sirrocco 2.0” is so problematic. Don’t worry, this stove is fictitious since only the 20 and 30 sirocco stoves are available anymore.

I

That is not true.

 

[oldbluedeer]

If it wasn't safe to run the stove at full throttle they would have put the full throttle stop somewhere safe.

I was joking

 

[Tegbert]

Yes, sorry, I forgot about the insert folks. My dial has max at 6:00, with about 11 hours of CCW rotation to full stop at 5:00. So, my setting of 3:30 is only turning it down by less than a quarter (23%) from full throttle. This is the setting that gives me 24 hour burns.

If I go just a bit farther, say 3:00 (27% v 23%), I get 30+ hours per load. If you went to half throttle on my stove, you’d flat out kill the fire, a classic stall.

That’s crazy. I know inserts are setup different but I wonder how closed your thermostat is at that point. Running that way is that just a black box or is there secondary combustion going on too?

Only reason for asking is I have to turn mine down to about 2 o’clock which the blade is almost on the full stop (high is 6 low is 12 so only a 180 degree range of travel for those that don’t know inserts in the 25 series) to get secondaries and flames to stop. At that setting after 12 hours I can reload on some coals with the cat needle right on the verge of active. I know all the conditions that can affect this but just trying to figure out if I have an issue. Wood being one which the majority of mine being pine so it might be normal.

Another reason is I have smoke rolling out of the stove on reloads like that. Height of chimney is just at 18’. 11’2” of insulated liner and 6’ of class a on top with maybe a foot of distance from the top of the insert to the smoke shelf where the liner is. When opening the door it does as it should and no smoke comes out but after it’s been open while I reload after 30 seconds or slightly longer it’s like it reverses.


Also wanted to give an update on my combustor that was faulty upon arrival. It was swapped out this past Monday and my smoking stack at lower temps is gone just condensation now.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[Highbeam]

That is not true.

Really? Have you ever seen a sirroco 2.0?

 

[webby3650]

That’s crazy. I know inserts are setup different but I wonder how closed your thermostat is at that point. Running that way is that just a black box or is there secondary combustion going on too?

Only reason for asking is I have to turn mine down to about 2 o’clock which the blade is almost on the full stop (high is 6 low is 12 so only a 180 degree range of travel for those that don’t know inserts in the 25 series) to get secondaries and flames to stop. At that setting after 12 hours I can reload on some coals with the cat needle right on the verge of active. I know all the conditions that can affect this but just trying to figure out if I have an issue. Wood being one which the majority of mine being pine so it might be normal.

Another reason is I have smoke rolling out of the stove on reloads like that. Height of chimney is just at 18’. 11’2” of insulated liner and 6’ of class a on top with maybe a foot of distance from the top of the insert to the smoke shelf where the liner is. When opening the door it does as it should and no smoke comes out but after it’s been open while I reload after 30 seconds or slightly longer it’s like it reverses.


Also wanted to give an update on my combustor that was faulty upon arrival. It was swapped out this past Monday and my smoking stack at lower temps is gone just condensation now.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

Unrelated, but I’m curious how you attached 6’ of class A pipe above the liner?

 

[Tegbert]

Unrelated, but I’m curious how you attached 6’ of class A pipe above the liner?

A transition anchor plate. This one to be exact.

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimn...tem-Parts/6-Champion-Masonry-Transition-Plate

Plus I braced the class a to the roof to support it.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[MissMac]

For those fighting the smell issue I have a question. Are you giving the fresh load a chance to get a rather complete char before reducing air? I can get the smell almost anytime by not letting the load get completely with the program before reducing thermostat position. Starting a fresh load works great on a cold start. By the time the fresh load gets fully engulfed the stat gauge and flu temps are still reasonable.
Not as easy on a hot reload (think. really high flu temps in a hurry while trying to engulf the new load). If part of the reload gets going really well its tough to not set the thermo to cruise and walk away. Doing this will give me the smell. Bit of a game. Maybe the stink is primarily in the exterior layer on the splits? Likely moisture or ? Just throwing this out there for consideration. Almost hate to add anything but I can normally get around this issue for the most part with correctly timed thermostat adjustments.

I don’t think that’s my issue. Even if I run my reload on high for hours before dialing it down it still starts to smell when I do. I’ve done lots of experimenting

 

[webby3650]

A transition anchor plate. This one to be exact.

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimn...tem-Parts/6-Champion-Masonry-Transition-Plate

Plus I braced the class a to the roof to support it.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

Good job