2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 2 (Everything BK)

[Poindexter]

good hypothesis, but wouldn't that subject all bk stoves? I have a princess and never had an issue and I don't think I have heard of issues from kings and princess owners.

I think condensing water vapor on the gasket material carrying small particles through wicking action is the next thing to rule out.

I suspect running mine as hot as i do for the first 30 minutes heats the gasket material to greater than 212 dF.

If the gaskets are not making a gas tight seal they wiuldnt be able to turn their stoves down.

I have looked at my own draft enough to be confident in @kf6hap s conclusion it isnt a draft issue.

We need to look elsewhere to silve this, and this is one time we will have to think inside the box.

 

[jetsam]

While I do admire the tidiness and work ethic that goes into condensing multiple posts on various subjects into one large and tiresome trollpost, that one pushed him over the edge into Ignoreland, Population 2. (Now the two woodies have each other to troll!)

 

[shoot-straight]

yes. I just dont understand that guy.

 

[ohiojoe13]

attached photos

 

[Ashful]

While I do admire the tidiness and work ethic that goes into condensing multiple posts on various subjects into one large and tiresome trollpost, that one pushed him over the edge into Ignoreland, Population 2. (Now the two woodies have each other to troll!)

LOL. We have the same two people on ignore. It must be the name.

 

[Ashful]

I have looked at my own draft enough to be confident in @kf6hap s conclusion it isnt a draft issue.

Let’s not just assume there is one single issue, here. I think aaronk’s findings and assertions are just too interesting to ignore. So interesting, in fact, I’m thinking of repeating the measurements on my own two stoves. With my range of chimney heights and weekly temperatures, some good data could be had.

How have you folks hooked up your magnehelics? I imagine melting the plastic tubing on mine, if I get it anywhere near the stove.

 

[webby3650]

I keep thinking, "Oh yeah, this stove is SUPPOSED to make loads of heat with no flame... this is going to save me a ton of wood!"

It pains me that I will need a $300 part every 2 years, but it is still much cheaper than the alternative. If I had a tube stove, I'd probably be going to 24 hour heating a month or two later, and since nobody's home for 12-14 hours at a go, that would make for a serious oil bill. (Nothing like Ashful's, but enough to make $300 seem cheap.)

There is no reason to replace the cat every 2 years under normal use. That’s just crazy! Some of these guys put more hours on a cat in a year than a normal person will in 3...

 

[webby3650]

Oh, yeah, joe...was that last year or the year before that you were chasing this problem? Can't remember what have you tried so far..
I guess I'm overdue to give you guys some more chit. Merry Crapmas! It will..until you start running the stove wide open for a half hour with each new load, with a blazing inferno in the box. Kiss your wood goodbye.
Well, you could call in the standard EPA warrranty that all cats have, three years free, next three pro-rated, but when I've replaced one after two or three years I haven't yet claimed on the warranty...figured I got what I bought, 12000 hrs. Now, BK says "It is not uncommon to get up to 10 years or more service from a catalyst." I don't know 'bout all that. Maybe if you live in Florida, ten years is not uncommon.
Another alternative might be to search other stove makers' cat prices...you might be able to find something cheaper, I don't know, like maybe $150 for some of their durafoil steel cats and $175 for the priciest ones. If you find a better deal, let us know. Check stove prices while you're there and report back..

Did you stop taking your meds again or something? For a while you’ve been able to be cordial and even act presentable... why do you follow the BK thread?

 

[kennyp2339]

So I think we have been chasing this smoke smell the wrong way. I had it in a Ashford 30.1 and now a princess. Smoke smell shows up when T-Stat is being turned down. I also have excessive draft and I’m sure others do too. I was at .17 on high (checked though the cat temp probe hole). So I put a supervent flue damper on top of the stove, partly because it fit much better than the stove pipe adapter. Anyhow when dampening the flue down to the manufacture .05 limit

I never tested my draft with a meter but I also have a damper on my setup due to shorter burns and coaling issues (had the damper with the old stove) I use the damper when temps drop below 20f or if its windy out, I do notice a difference in burning characteristics, so much so that I will hop on amazon and by a draft meter to post true facts with numbers.
I can tell you this much, without the damper running on high, if I pull the temp probe I will get a whistling sound, with the damper closed I wont have a whistling sound. I also get that V pattern on the door which I thought was normal, now that I'm thinking about it, I should have such a large V when burning low and slow, I should have more creosote on the glass.

 

[webby3650]

I never tested my draft with a meter but I also have a damper on my setup due to shorter burns and coaling issues (had the damper with the old stove) I use the damper when temps drop below 20f or if its windy out, I do notice a difference in burning characteristics, so much so that I will hop on amazon and by a draft meter to post true facts with numbers.
I can tell you this much, without the damper running on high, if I pull the temp probe I will get a whistling sound, with the damper closed I wont have a whistling sound. I also get that V pattern on the door which I thought was normal, now that I'm thinking about it, I should have such a large V when burning low and slow, I should have more creosote on the glass.

I promise you, the v shaped build up in the glass is normal. I service dozens of BKs and have owned 3 different ones. Short flues, medium, and tall, same story. Now, the Ashfords and Sirrico’s arent as prone to it because of the shallow belly. The dirty glass is directly related to the deep belly of the king and princess. Ones that run high more often don’t experience it as much.

 

[Poindexter]

The thing about state of the art manometers is you got to be aware of what you are referencing.

One input is refernce and the other is measured.

I just scored "a small electronic devuce of my choice" under the tree this morning. Thining pretty hard about a manometer.

The hot setup would be to drill a hole in my insulation envelope (not going to happen) so i am referencing atmospheric pressure, with the measure input in the flue gas temp probe hole already in my stack.

That puts my refernce - when winds are calm- at the same atmospheric pressure my chimey top sees, and accounts for the stack effect of my house and my stack all at once, with my measurd far enough up the pipe to mininize turbulent and standing wave hysteresis.

 

[kennyp2339]

I promise you, the v shaped build up in the glass is normal. I service dozens of BKs and have owned 3 different ones. Short flues, medium, and tall, same story. Now, the Ashfords and Sirrico’s arent as prone to it because of the shallow belly. The dirty glass is directly related to the deep belly of the king and princess. Ones that run high more often don’t experience it as much.

I don't think I explained it correctly, i'm saying when burning lower my glass should be dirtier than what it is, I'll order the meter and then do a few burns with meter readings and open / closed damper with pics. BTW merry Christmas pal, your a good asset on this website and I enjoy reading your input.

 

[Poindexter]

Fwiw my A30 has been active in the same low burn for 26 hours now. In my house i can smell prime rib smoked on apple, asparagus smoked on hickory, there is thyme in the jus and tarragon on the hollandaise, no eau de spruce smoke in the background.

 

[aaronk25]

So I replicated the issue in a manner of a hour. I couldn’t back the stove down anymore as we -15f tonight so now it’s hammer down.

Anyhow, I left the flue damper wide open and t-stat set on 2:30 position. Black line started developing on the glass. Sniff around the rope seal at top left corner hinge side, could get a whiff of smoke.

Next load i repeated exactly but use the damper on the flue to bring the draft back to spec. 2:30on thermostat. After a hour no distinguishable line of black on the glass, no smell.

I’m not saying this is the silver bullet, and have nothing to gain, just trying to help a few people out if I can. I think it’s as simple as the air wash keeps the glass clean and the smoke off the door seal (mostly anyway), but under excessive draft the airwash is rendered almost completely ineffective.

If the air wash isn’t doing it’s job because of an

of spec excessive chimney draft, then the stove is gonna stink.

I think the factory could replicate this in the lab using dyed smoke running into the intake air and induce a excessive draft. I think what would be observed when the draft is above .7-.1 at lower T-stat settings the airwash flow pulls off the door. Leaving the rope gaskets in a low pressure area and taking a direct hit from smoke that just lays against the sides of the glass in a V pattern.


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[Blazing]

So I replicated the issue in a manner of a hour. I couldn’t back the stove down anymore as we -15f tonight so now it’s hammer down.

Anyhow, I left the flue damper wide open and t-stat set on 2:30 position. Black line started developing on the glass. Sniff around the rope seal at top left corner hinge side, could get a whiff of smoke.

Next load i repeated exactly but use the damper on the flue to bring the draft back to spec. 2:30on thermostat. After a hour no distinguishable line of black on the glass, no smell.

I’m not saying this is the silver bullet, and have nothing to gain, just trying to help a few people out if I can. I think it’s as simple as the air wash keeps the glass clean and the smoke off the door seal (mostly anyway), but under excessive draft the airwash is rendered almost completely ineffective.

If the air wash isn’t doing it’s job because of an

of spec excessive chimney draft, then the stove is gonna stink.

I think the factory could replicate this in the lab using dyed smoke running into the intake air and induce a excessive draft. I think what would be observed when the draft is above .7-.1 at lower T-stat settings the airwash flow pulls off the door. Leaving the rope gaskets in a low pressure area and taking a direct hit from smoke that just lays against the sides of the glass in a V pattern.


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Nice!

 

[lsucet]

Well, finally I fire up the other Princess a few days ago and all what I can say is, LIFE IS GOOD.
I am running both super low, no fans on and the house is staying super warm that I think I will just need to do partial loads on this last install for just get thru the nights when real cold. The lowest temps since I fired it up it has been 24 df and the inside stays around 80 df with both dialed real low. A little too hot for me.lol

 

[Poindexter]

if I get a manometer, for the first set of measurements I will put the reference line next to my biggest air leak on the ground floor with the "measure" input up on the second floor to confirm the stack effect of my home runs 0 to +2 Pascals. Probably will run that for a week or two to get a good look at the extremes.

When I am happy with that I would likely measure stove room as reference and 19" up my stack as measured.

No holes to drill that way.

If I had an OAK it would make perfect sense to stick a sensor for reference in the OAK as "atmospheric" and the measure line in the stack and measure the whole enchilada all at once. Keep and eye on it when the wind is blowing of course.

The units I have looked at on amazon under $100 have specificity at or near one Pascal, as in just barely sensitive enough to measure the anticipated stack effect of my house. Using an outside sensor as reference and a sensor in the stack will account for both at once, but I don't want the data bad enough to drill a hole in an exterior wall.

FWIW I don't think @kf6hap has missed anything. The guy has gone above and beyond, concluded this isn't a draft issue, at least in his install, and I agree. I have no doubt there are infinity places inside the box where pressure is positive, but as big an opening as the stove collar is the net pressure in the box stays negative. He can't find a positive deflection with a lot of time and effort and gear in looking, and his work is thorough enough I cant see a good reason to try and repeat his data collection.

I am a little concerned about using the cat probe hole as a measure point. It is a place where flow is pretty laminar, pretty predictable. I am gun shy of that as a measure point because a bunch of fly ash on the cat face might skew the reading there. Using a flue gas probe hole up in the stack a user could switch in and out of bypass to confirm the cat face is clear, leaving insert users out in the cold to be sure - but I don't think there is anything to find in this bunny trail anyway, so do what you like @Ashful

 

[jetsam]

It must be the name.

I don't think so, because I like Woody Guthrie!

 

[Ashful]

FWIW I don't think @kf6hap has missed anything. The guy has gone above and beyond, concluded this isn't a draft issue, at least in his install, and I agree. I have no doubt there are infinity places inside the box where pressure is positive, but as big an opening as the stove collar is the net pressure in the box stays negative. He can't find a positive deflection with a lot of time and effort and gear in looking, and his work is thorough enough I cant see a good reason to try and repeat his data collection.

I am a little concerned about using the cat probe hole as a measure point. It is a place where flow is pretty laminar, pretty predictable. I am gun shy of that as a measure point because a bunch of fly ash on the cat face might skew the reading there. Using a flue gas probe hole up in the stack a user could switch in and out of bypass to confirm the cat face is clear, leaving insert users out in the cold to be sure - but I don't think there is anything to find in this bunny trail anyway, so do what you like @Ashful

Well, let's be clear. I am not talking about firebox or cat chamber measurements, but specifically flue measurements. It's been more than two years since I dug it out, but I remember my BK Ashford manuals call out a pretty tight range of flue readings.

While I do get occasional creo or smoke smell in the house, my personal interest is actually much more related to coaling patterns, and optimizing my setup for maximum efficiency. Stove coaling is a pretty serious issue on my 30 foot pipe, where I'm trying to heat a fairly large and inefficient space.

 

[jetsam]

Well, let's be clear. I am not talking about firebox or cat chamber measurements, but specifically flue measurements. It's been more than two years since I dug it out, but I remember my BK Ashford manuals call out a pretty tight range of flue readings.

While I do get occasional creo or smoke smell in the house, my personal interest is actually much more related to coaling patterns, and optimizing my setup for maximum efficiency. Stove coaling is a pretty serious issue on my 30 foot pipe, where I'm trying to heat a fairly large and inefficient space.

Would you trade somewhat shorter burntimes for somewhat hotter fires and much less coaling? Try some nice dry pine in that stove. I love burning pine when I don't need maximal burns, for the above reasons. (Also because it takes a year or less to dry, unlike my hardwoods.) As a bonus, you don't need to empty the ash so much.

 

[aaronk25]

Pine is awesome. Rounds (non-split) up to 8-9”, which is the biggest that will fit though the princess door, dry without splitting! Can’t do that with oak.

Also the burn time is less, but not a lot shorter as the lower moisture content let’s more of the fuel convert to heat.

I also am having my on staff solidworks designer toy with the idea of putting a coal grate that collapses flat on the bottom of the stove that can be flipped up on the door side, for the sole purpose of burning down coals quickly. If the coals can be burned down in a hour or 2 I’d think it would be a success. I like others just can wait a whole day to burn down coals, nor does scooping out the coals sound attractive.


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[webby3650]

Pine is awesome. Rounds (non-split) up to 8-9”, which is the biggest that will fit though the princess door, dry without splitting! Can’t do that with oak.

Also the burn time is less, but not a lot shorter as the lower moisture content let’s more of the fuel convert to heat.

I also am having my on staff solidworks designer toy with the idea of putting a coal grate that collapses flat on the bottom of the stove that can be flipped up on the door side, for the sole purpose of burning down coals quickly. If the coals can be burned down in a hour or 2 I’d think it would be a success. I like others just can wait a whole day to burn down coals, nor does scooping out the coals sound attractive.


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I’ve never had an issue with coals building up in my BKs, only in other small non-cats I’ve had. I know others have struggled with it though.

 

[aaronk25]

Ya I think it’s 1-2 year seasoned oak is the issue. The guys that cut it 3 years in advance and store covered never seem to have a issue.


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[webby3650]

Ya I think it’s 1-2 year seasoned oak is the issue. The guys that cut it 3 years in advance and store covered never seem to have a issue.


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I don’t know, I havent always had 3 year old oak.Ive always burned what I can get, typically only seasoned one year.

 

[shoot-straight]

While it doesn't burn all that long, I also Love burning lighter woods like pine and poplar.