2016-17 Blaze King Performance Thread (Everything BK) Part 2

[Highbeam]

Would be interested in the results if you do decide on a vinegar bath. I've saved my old ceramic cat on a shelf along with extra gasket material with intentions of trying it out of curiosity. Like so many other things though, it's still on the shelf. Lol

I will continue to "dork out" and provide a photo documentary of the process. Going to do the boiling outside on the BBQ!

 

[lsucet]

well, I have something going on here in my mind and when i think i have it figured out, i go back to stage 1.

This is about the outside air kit (OAK).
Looking into the blaze king design, I wondering if when not using an OAK and using the stove with the fan on, that in somehow can cause backdraft,smoke smell that some have, and/or affect draft.

I know that kitchen hood fans,bathroom fans,etc, are taking air from inside the envelop of the house to the outside and can cause negative pressure. I am clear on that. Now, I also know that the fans in the BK, are just circulating the same air from inside and just warming it. Also I know that some cold air infiltration can be in place here thru cracks, door seals,etc making up air. Ok, understood. Looking into that the intake is between the fans, I am expecting some negative effect, if an OAK is not use. I am having hard time. Maybe i am stupid.lol
Can be possible that the fans are drawing air from the intake and more when the thermostat is open? causing smoke/creosote smell? affecting draft? Creating backdraft on some setups?
Let me say, that i am not having any issue but this have me thinking.

 

[Ashful]

well, I have something going on here in my mind and when i think i have it figured out, i go back to stage 1.

This is about the outside air kit (OAK).
Looking into the blaze king design, I wondering if when not using an OAK and using the stove with the fan on, that in somehow can cause backdraft,smoke smell that some have, and/or affect draft.

I know that kitchen hood fans,bathroom fans,etc, are taking air from inside the envelop of the house to the outside and can cause negative pressure. I am clear on that. Now, I also know that the fans in the BK, are just circulating the same air from inside and just warming it. Also I know that some cold air infiltration can be in place here thru cracks, door seals,etc making up air. Ok, understood. Looking into that the intake is between the fans, I am expecting some negative effect, if an OAK is not use. I am having hard time. Maybe i am stupid.lol
Can be possible that the fans are drawing air from the intake and more when the thermostat is open? causing smoke/creosote smell? affecting draft? Creating backdraft on some setups?
Let me say, that i am not having any issue but this have me thinking.

I can't speak for other BKs, but on the Ashford, the fan inlets are too far from the stove inlet to have any effect on inlet pressure to stove.

 

[lsucet]

yeah, I think Princess and king share the same design. I am just wondering, what part of the design/engineering stopped that from happening. just curiosity.

 

[kf6hap]

Oblviously, with only some smaller coals left it the stove, the cat has stopped burning smoke quite a while before that. So, with a BK, can you tell when the load is done gassing and the cat is no longer burning smoke?

If the cat thermometer is in the active region it truly is actively eating smoke. Granted, at this very late stage of the burn not much visible smoke is being generated but some particulates and an array of gasses are being cleaned up. At very low and extremely low burn rates, cat stoves become exceptionally clean. This is shown in the printed manual. Condar states steelcats are active at 400F and my BK behaves like this is the case as during these very low burns the area of the stove near the cat is quite hot compared to other parts.

 

[Woody Stover]

yeah, I think Princess and king share the same design.

Huh. I thought those tubes inside the stove were going to the air wash, not part of the blower system. Are there vertical channels in the front/inside of the firebox that feed the air wash?

Condar states steelcats are active at 400F and my BK behaves like this is the case as during these very low burns the area of the stove near the cat is quite hot compared to other parts.

The same with my stove; The top, above the cat, is the hottest area of the stove. I just figured that was because all heat in the firebox is being routed through the cat area. Hard to say if the cat is burning or the heat is from the firebox, especially when I open the air on the coals and the STT above the cat rises...

 

[lsucet]

Huh. I thought those tubes inside the stove were going to the air wash, not part of the blower system. Are there vertical channels in the front/inside of the firebox that feed the air wash?

you are right, i pick this quick from the web and noticed later something is not right but at least shows how fans and intake are. that part is right.

 

[kf6hap]

Automatic ratio change! While doing a load char I observed the combustion air velocity is high, so it prefers to not change direction. It sweeps across the glass and feeds the logs directly producing a lot of flames. At turndown you witness a lot of rolling flames at the top of the door glass. The reduced speed incoming air is now making a sharp 180 turn and more of it is feeding the cat directly to increase the cat's burning efficiency. The airflow shifted from mainly feeding the logs to mainly feeding the cat. Very slick BK trick. Other stoves use a secondary air feed to give the cat some air. A hit and miss proposition. And yet other stoves have damper arrangements that do this. The BK does this automatically with no operator intervention. Love it.

 

[Ashful]

If the cat thermometer is in the active region it truly is actively eating smoke.

Correction: The cat thermometer simply tells you the temperature of the gas exiting the combustor. In a good combustor, any gas above 500F will cause active combustion, but in a depleted combustor it will not.

 

[kf6hap]

Dead cats make no heat.

 

[Ashful]

Dead cats make no heat.

BK's may be unique, in this regard, as they do not introduce fresh air to the combustor the way other stoves do. In other cat stoves, you certainly can achieve reburn with a depleted catalyst, at sufficient temperature, typically around 1100F.

Still, it only takes 500F to make the needle read "Active". I suspect one can easily achieve that temperature on exhaust gas right off the firebox, catalyst or not.

 

[Highbeam]

BK's may be unique, in this regard, as they do not introduce fresh air to the combustor the way other stoves do. In other cat stoves, you certainly can achieve reburn with a depleted catalyst, at sufficient temperature, typically around 1100F.

Still, it only takes 500F to make the needle read "Active". I suspect one can easily achieve that temperature on exhaust gas right off the firebox, catalyst or not.

Yep, 1000 degree unburned smoke is shooting through my catalyst right now! If my cat was eating smoke, it might be 1500.

 

[kf6hap]

My previous stove, the Encore 2 in One, capitalized on the fact that by removing the cat it still operated efficiently, cleanly and EPA approved as a secondary burn non cat stove. I think they came up with this "two ways to burn" stove, cat or non cat both EPA approved, to reach an audience that was still apprehensive about cat stoves. It would never do a low burn like the BKs. It is a "down draft" stove that took, often, 40 minutes to get the cat lit and sustaining. If you wanted a cat thermometer you had to purchase it from an other vendor and it had to be electronic as the thermocouple was inserted at the rear of the stove. Although thermostatically controlled you had to constantly fiddle with the setting. Worst of all I could never be sure if the damn thing would rage out of control if I left the house. I absolutely hated that stove. Flue temps were in the 900s+.

 

[Niko]

So would you guys buy a floor model demo (burned maybe 1 or months, still has factory warranty) king ultra for 2500, or a brand new princes with a gold door for 2800.

 

[kf6hap]

Sure, but offer 2,400. Is it the right size for your situation?

 

[Niko]

Sure, but offer 2,400. Is it the right size for your situation?

my house is roughly 1500 square feet on both levels, both levels are finished and used every day. I have the king ultra downstairs but I have stated in other threads that I don't like running it hotter to get my temps to rise upstairs, which in turn makes my downstairs get into the 90s. having 2 kings is def a lot for a 3,000 sq foot house, but I look at it like longer burn times with the bigger boxes.

i def don't want to pay more for anything smaller then the princess.

 

[tarzan]

I'd go with the king for the money if you can swing the clearances and 8" flue requirements.

Having a king downstairs and a king upstairs you can elect to run from roughly 14,000 to 180,000 btu's and everything in between.

If the king would run on a 6" flue I doubt the princess would be around.

 

[lsucet]

my house is roughly 1500 square feet on both levels, both levels are finished and used every day. I have the king ultra downstairs but I have stated in other threads that I don't like running it hotter to get my temps to rise upstairs, which in turn makes my downstairs get into the 90s. having 2 kings is def a lot for a 3,000 sq foot house, but I look at it like longer burn times with the bigger boxes.

i def don't want to pay more for anything smaller then the princess.

I will say, go for it. The good thing is, you will be able to run them lower than now, having longer burn like you said. The wood consumption/usage will not be much different than now because of the lower/slower burn if draft is good. I am having almost the same situation. The stove is able to heat the place with no problem but the stove room/area temp climb to high for my liking and that is the area that we most spend time.

That's why i am sure, at the end, for next winter I will install another Princess.lol. The Englanders are mad at me
I have to accept, I am used to more steady/equal heat, being on NG furnace all this years and i know the only way to achieve that over there is another BK Two of them in low/slow

 

[Ashful]

my house is roughly 1500 square feet on both levels, both levels are finished and used every day. I have the king ultra downstairs but I have stated in other threads that I don't like running it hotter to get my temps to rise upstairs, which in turn makes my downstairs get into the 90s. having 2 kings is def a lot for a 3,000 sq foot house, but I look at it like longer burn times with the bigger boxes.

i def don't want to pay more for anything smaller then the princess.

Makes me think of Brody's quote, "you're gonna need a bigger boat," or house in this case. But with BK's, you can cruise 'em low and slow, and reload four times per week!

 

[kf6hap]

The 30 units are only slightly smaller in BTUs out and box size compared to a Princess. The King is a big jump. The Princess has that real nice extra deep box. As for turn down I believe my Ashford 30.1 turns down way more than stated in the literature. I don't know about the Princess turn down.

 

[lsucet]

The 30 units are only slightly smaller in BTUs out and box size compared to a Princess. The King is a big jump. The Princess has that real nice extra deep box. As for turn down I believe my Ashford 30.1 turns down way more than stated in the literature. I don't know about the Princess turn down.

One member of the family has an Ashford, just crossing the street from me. I will say that it is about the same. I run my princess compare to them a little harder cause my house is old and poor insulation from back in the day. Some remodeling done to it by me is helping a lot. Theirs is a modern modular real tight. I don't think there's a winner here. All what I know is the princess does a hell of a job if we take into account the age of my house and weird floor plan and upstairs room.
I think that how low and slow either model can run, depends on setups, draft,etc.

 

[kf6hap]

I did some checking and found some big number differences:

Ashford 30.1
Sales literature BTUs 11,940-35,821
Manual numbers 6,107-28,636

Ashford 20:
Sales literature BTUs 11,912-29,780
Manual numbers 8,822-27,550

Princess
Sales Literature BTUs 12,528-37,587
Manual numbers 12,000-35,600

Interesting comparisons. I think the "manual" numbers are closer to the truth than the sales as the sales numbers are connected to burn times. I also believe the Manual numbers are attached to keeping within the EPA limits, using EPA fuel loads. This is my guess. Could be wrong here.

The ashford 30.1 has the best "turn down" by far. This is my experience. It also has 3/4 the output of the princess.
The princess has a sizable greater heat output and a slightly bigger firebox but the turndown is double the output of the Ashford 30.1.

For my situation, it is NOT the maximum BTU output that is the more important number (although is is of importance to be sure) but the minimum BTU number. If you live in a colder climate or have a poorly insulated or very large house this might be reversed.

YES, how low/slow a stove can go is dependent on the venting system.

Any comments?

 

[kennyp2339]

my house is roughly 1500 square feet

You can do the 8" flue for the king?

 

[Niko]

You can do the 8" flue for the king?

I was going to run the princess threw my current existing clay flue liner, i had a company come out and inspect it and long story the chimney is a no go.

So i would have to use a class a and bust a hole thru my roof. So that being said i can run any size flue.

 

[begreen]

I was going to run the princess threw my current existing clay flue liner, i had a company come out and inspect it and long story the chimney is a no go.

So i would have to use a class a and bust a hole thru my roof. So that being said i can run any size flue.

What is the ID of the current clay liner? Was the option of installing an insulated liner in the chimney discussed? If there is not enough room did you ask the company if the clay liner could be busted out?