Why so much hate over electric vehicles?

[weee123]

To the mileage tax, how would they ever get an accurate mileage from people?

Also, I’d love to get an EV but for a daily I need a fullsize pickup. The Ford Lightning is far too expensive, as are a lot of other EV’s. Also, when it comes to buying used for EV’s, I doubt you’d be able to buy one that’s 20 years old on the original battery and still has years of life left in it like you could with an ICE.

 

[KDubU]

There is just a lot wrong about this whole discussion. In one is to state they are being “forced” to buy an EV as some countries are stating by XXXX year no more carbon producing vehicles, this is no different than many laws that make a democratic society function. Way back when, seat belt laws bent a lot of people out of shape but it happened and I don’t hear whining over it any longer. I think NH is the only state that does not have a law in place mandating it. I think too many people are concerned over things that are changing, that is all it is. Guarantee if any of you are alive in 2050 and we have this convo, you will have other things to be afraid of than EV’s.

 

[DBoon]

a 20min trip would extend to over an hour.

Someone will have a difficult job to do to explain to me how what used to be a 20 minute trip in my Chevy Sonic is now a 1 hour trip in my Chevy Bolt EV. In fact, it is still a 20 minute trip in my Chevy Bolt, and I'm not cold in the winter doing it. It just costs me 1/4 as much to get there now compared to a gasoline powered vehicle.

Lithium mining for batteries makes us more dependant on other countries for resources, which is a concern of mine. Also that mining is super super messed up for our earth. When those batteries die, it's almost pointless to re-power them due to cost. You can rebuild an ICE for a fraction of the cost of a new battery pack.

We have plenty of lithium in the US - it is one of the most common elements in the world. The fact that we don't mine a lot of our own lithium is a matter of choice and not availability. And it is the further refining of the elemental lithium into battery-grade materials that must also be taken into consideration. We can drill for oil, frack for gas, etc. etc. but we can't mine for lithium? In 20 years, we'll have so much locally-sourced lithium we'll be sending it overseas, probably, just like we do with natural gas nowadays. Yeah, I heard the same argument about natural gas not even 20 years ago - we'll run out and be importing it all.

Our grid infrastructure can not support the ammount of electric battery vehicles on the road already and it's getting worse.

What's getting worse? US electricity consumption has been flat for the last 15 years, see https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php
Are there localized demand/supply problems - sure, but there is not a systemic issue with being able to supply enough electricity where and when it is needed. Just because you heard it on a news program doesn't make it true.

If the entire US vehicle fleet were electrified, it is estimated that electricity consumption would increase by about 25%. How can we not handle this over a 20 (or more) year transition period? Look at the rate of electricity growth until about 2007 in the link above and explain to me how we couldn't figure out how to deal with that rate of growth again, if necessary (and it seems not even necessary to have that level of growth). Look at the shift from coal to natural gas, and now the growth of renewables (all that is being accommodated just fine without blackouts and brownouts) and explain to me how we can't continue to figure out how to accommodate that level of growth in the future.

How is it that politicians can simultaneously describe America as the greatest country in the world capable of anything due to our unfettered free markets then turn around around and tell me that we are incapable of accommodating any type of energy transition or electricity demand growth, despite all of the past evidence to the contrary?

Look at what states are accomplishing with an energy transition https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...r-state-election.html?searchResultPosition=15 States like Iowa and Kansas get >40% of their electricity from wind - nobody is going without electricity there or suffering repeated blackouts and brownouts. In fact, the only state in the country with blackouts and brownouts is Texas in the winter because they are stuck in 1980 and refuse to winterize their natural gas supply system and power plants.

I hear the next argument coming - costs are too high. High power prices (as of late) are not due to high costs of renewable energy or infrastructure but high natural gas prices and/or utilities in California that have inflicted disaster upon disaster that have cost billions of dollars which their ratepayers must then pay for in the form of higher electricity rates.

 

[woodgeek]

I think it all comes down to money. Some companies with a lot of money DON'T want you to buy EVs, so they pay advertising and PR firms to create content that effectively makes a lot of people hate them or afraid of the change.

The science of advertizing and controlling what people want/think got very mature in the 1960s, and hit the stratosphere in the last 20 years with computer tracking of people and the rise of social media.

Many of us are TOLD what we should like and dislike, very effectively. It just takes money and is perfectly legal.

It is the scientific mass application of misinformation.

This is the same process that used to tell you low-tar cigarettes were safe, climate change was a hoax, solar/wind power will never work, and eating loads of beef (or bacon or eggs) is perfectly healthy, etc.

-----------------

Regarding the bans, I think they are silly. Technology advances at its own pace. Like LED bulbs, which are now great, cheap and a no brainer. But were not 20 years ago, bc they were so expensive.

Once a new technology advances to the point were it can capture significant market share (not 100%, but some chunk), at market prices, then it gets adopted. Government really has little to do with this, it capitalism. Startups see an opportunity to steal market share from legacy companies selling the old tech, sometimes the legacy companies go belly up ,sometimes they switch to the new tech.

When that is happening the legacy companies pay for misinformation to delay the transition, so they can make money a bit longer, or get more time to adapt. But they know they can't stop it. But if they are making billions per year, delaying things for a few years pays off.

Eventually, the startups can pay for their own PR counter-programming.

The govt is standing on the sidelines, and trying to speed up the transition (for a variety of reasons including competitiveness with other countries, or to prop up legacy companies which are adapting) using incentives. The trope of 'the govt is picking winners, or forcing us to buy stuff, or impinging our freedom, or being our nanny' is a classic in the misinformation game to make people angry. But in the end, the govt is just closing the barn door after the technology horse is already out.

 

[all night moe]

Someone will have a difficult job to do to explain to me how what used to be a 20 minute trip in my Chevy Sonic is now a 1 hour trip in my Chevy Bolt EV. In fact, it is still a 20 minute trip in my Chevy Bolt, and I'm not cold in the winter doing it. It just costs me 1/4 as much to get there now compared to a gasoline powered vehicle.

I have exaggerated but, I have heard of complaints of some needing to recharge mid commute. Driving through snow takes more energy rather it be fossil fuel engine or electric motor. Top that off with using the wipers, cabin neat, and running lights. That's serious consumption. Another example would be one who lives on an hour commute, and in the hills. Pulling grade is another example of battery strain.

Congrats on your purchase. I hope it works well for you.

 

[all night moe]

To the mileage tax, how would they ever get an accurate mileage from people?

Cell phones and easy-pass are two examples. We are already tracked.

 

[Eman85]

To the mileage tax, how would they ever get an accurate mileage from people?

Also, I’d love to get an EV but for a daily I need a fullsize pickup. The Ford Lightning is far too expensive, as are a lot of other EV’s. Also, when it comes to buying used for EV’s, I doubt you’d be able to buy one that’s 20 years old on the original battery and still has years of life left in it like you could with an ICE.

If you have a vehicle they have odometers both on the dash and recorded in the PCM. The mileage thing has been floated for years especially when fuel mileage improved, never gets any traction. EV's are taxed on their registrations in some states.
Years ago you would have laughed if someone told you their vehicle would last 300k mi, now it's common. The battery technology will just keep improving. Batteries are part of the electric grid solution with storage for power plants. We all like the improvements in cell phone and cordless tool battery technology and it's just going to keep getting better.
There seems to be a trend about bans and vehicle performance, most are people heard about somewhere or some guy or a meme on FB. I remember people with certain vehicles bragging about fuel mileage. I often offered to go on a trip with them and if the vehicle got that kind of mileage I'd pay for the week's vacation if not they paid. Never did go on any trips.

 

[woodgeek]

It's not shoved down our throats, yet. The push is real though. It hasn't been pushed hard. At least in NY. Southern Cali may have a bigger push...IDK. Here, in NY, they know it isn't feasible. Like mentioned above, with harsh cold NE winters, a 20min trip would extend to over an hour. Unless, one chooses not to use the heater, wipers, headlights, and other battery robbing power. Routine stops to recharge, in an infrastructure that doesn't exist, would be necessary.

I went to visit my sister in CT for Christmas in my Chevy Bolt, 250 miles each way.

Should be a 4 hour drive with no traffic, it was well over 5 hours with traffic. I needed about 60 mins of charge time in both directions, and recharged the car 100% in 48 hours off 120V while we were there.

On the way up, we stopped 2X for 30 mins and took bathroom breaks and bought snacks. On the way home, we stopped for dinner (IHOP) for an hour, which we needed.

Not a big hardship at all. Fast charging that is.

The PROBLEM was that all three fast chargers there were lines with 30-45 minute waits. That sucked. Previous trips didn't have any waits, but they sold a million of those darned EVs in 2023, and a third of them non-Tesla's competing with me for fast chargers.

I anticipated the lines bc I was looking at the chargers on the apps, and they said they were 'full', meaning there is a line. I could've taken my Volt instead, but prefer the ride in the Bolt. YMMV.

I see this as mostly a regional problem, bc there are NO fast chargers in NYC metro. Its like a black hole there. And since that is at that midpoint of my trip and super congested, it leads to the waits. When I go south to DC or VA, or well past NYC in New England, never had a wait there either.

 

[River]

The title of the thread is, "Why so much hate over electric vehicles?" The facts (the "science," etc.) are not so important as perceptions. It is clear from this discussion, alone, we have different perceptions about electric vehicles. And, really, the strong feelings we have are not so much about electric vehicles, but the politics, fear, desperation associated with fossil fuels, climate change, mining restrictions, carbon dioxide, pollution, safety, reliability, ...

So, those perceptions and the fire they produce in us result in "hate" (that may not be the best word to describe it, but that is the word used in the title). Probably, if the whole energy issue had been addressed in a measured fashion beginning about a half-century ago, we would be in a much better position, technology-wise and emotionally, today. But that is not the hand we were dealt. It makes sense, at this stage, to have some compassion for others' opinions (it is certain, few of us will change ours because someone glares at us and vehemently argues his case). We do have a right to our own opinion in this country. Civility will not slow the pace your opinion is adopted.

 

[incinerator]

To the mileage tax, how would they ever get an accurate mileage from people?

Also, I’d love to get an EV but for a daily I need a fullsize pickup. The Ford Lightning is far too expensive, as are a lot of other EV’s. Also, when it comes to buying used for EV’s, I doubt you’d be able to buy one that’s 20 years old on the original battery and still has years of life left in it like you could with an ICE.

Replaceable battery packs seem like a good idea/or at least make them easy to replace. I've heard the Model S is quick to remove the pack and a Chinese car company uses swappable packs so the tech is there=like a cordless drill. Have refurb packs ready to swap in. With LFP you shouldn't have to worry about it unless something goes funky with the cells. Up here in the salt belt, rust kills cars quicker than anything. My nephew has a 2012 GM pickup and the rust spread far and wide. i want to say it has about 150K miles on it. A lot of EVs use aluminum panels which should last far longer.

 

[bholler]

Cell phones and easy-pass are two examples. We are already tracked.

Here you report your mileage every year fir inspection and registration

 

[Dieselhead]

I went to visit my sister in CT for Christmas in my Chevy Bolt, 250 miles each way.

Should be a 4 hour drive with no traffic, it was well over 5 hours with traffic. I needed about 60 mins of charge time in both directions, and recharged the car 100% in 48 hours off 120V while we were there.

On the way up, we stopped 2X for 30 mins and took bathroom breaks and bought snacks. On the way home, we stopped for dinner (IHOP) for an hour, which we needed.

Not a big hardship at all. Fast charging that is.

The PROBLEM was that all three fast chargers there were lines with 30-45 minute waits. That sucked. Previous trips didn't have any waits, but they sold a million of those darned EVs in 2023, and a third of them non-Tesla's competing with me for fast chargers.

I anticipated the lines bc I was looking at the chargers on the apps, and they said they were 'full', meaning there is a line. I could've taken my Volt instead, but prefer the ride in the Bolt. YMMV.

I see this as mostly a regional problem, bc there are NO fast chargers in NYC metro. Its like a black hole there. And since that is at that midpoint of my trip and super congested, it leads to the waits. When I go south to DC or VA, or well past NYC in New England, never had a wait there either.

I would feel awkward to ask a friend/relative, “hey do you mind if I fill up my fuel tank on your dime”?

 

[incinerator]

I went to visit my sister in CT for Christmas in my Chevy Bolt, 250 miles each way.

Should be a 4 hour drive with no traffic, it was well over 5 hours with traffic. I needed about 60 mins of charge time in both directions, and recharged the car 100% in 48 hours off 120V while we were there.

On the way up, we stopped 2X for 30 mins and took bathroom breaks and bought snacks. On the way home, we stopped for dinner (IHOP) for an hour, which we needed.

Not a big hardship at all. Fast charging that is.

The PROBLEM was that all three fast chargers there were lines with 30-45 minute waits. That sucked. Previous trips didn't have any waits, but they sold a million of those darned EVs in 2023, and a third of them non-Tesla's competing with me for fast chargers.

I anticipated the lines bc I was looking at the chargers on the apps, and they said they were 'full', meaning there is a line. I could've taken my Volt instead, but prefer the ride in the Bolt. YMMV.

I see this as mostly a regional problem, bc there are NO fast chargers in NYC metro. Its like a black hole there. And since that is at that midpoint of my trip and super congested, it leads to the waits. When I go south to DC or VA, or well past NYC in New England, never had a wait there either.

In Tesla's you can pop up the superchargers and see how busy they are, i checked out the supercharger in Wisconsin Dells and when i looked 11 out of 12 stalls were in use. With everyone moving to NACS i got to imagine that wait times are going to be a thing during peak travel times. I can't imagine what would be needed if say 50% of the cars on the road were EV. I feel like you'd need Costco size parking lots filled with chargers along major interstates every 10 or 20 miles. This summer we drove to Duluth, MN and there was a good stretch (150 miles?) with zero charging options//so we had to charge to 90% just to have a buffer to make it to the next stop.

 

[all night moe]

Here you report your mileage every year fir inspection and registration

Interesting. Do they have an explanation for this? I'm assuming they're not taxing mileage.
Maybe this is in the works?

 

[EbS-P]

I think this thread has answered the OPs question. I’m turning off my notifications for it.

 

[bholler]

Interesting. Do they have an explanation for this? I'm assuming they're not taxing mileage.
Maybe this is in the works?

No but it's been required atleast 30 years now. My guess is just to give them another data point. It also eliminates odometer fraud

 

[all night moe]

I think this thread has answered the OPs question. I’m turning off my notifications for it.

Me too .....

 

[weee123]

So as to some of the comments saying that a lot of people are scared of EV’s because of what they see on tv, memes, or what have you. My opinions on EV’s are from real world experience working in the automotive field prior to getting into my current work field, from aftermarket shops that would see well worn vehicles, to the dealership dealing with new vehicles.

My concerns for EV’s aren’t stemmed from grid power, but longterm usage and the used market. Mainly because there are still a LOT of people who can’t afford, or refuse to pay the premium on current new vehicles. Which are the most expensive depreciating “asset” you can buy.

Since I need a fullsize pickup, and a lot of experience working with Fords, I decided to look into both the Lightning and hybrid F150s.
An extended range Lightning optioned for what I need in a truck is $74k. Which is astronomical and a price I will never pay for any vehicle ever. The hybrid, optioned for what I need, comes in at $54k. Much more reasonable. Looking into MPG gain vs my 2016 F150 with 2.7 ecoboost, is laughable. Real world mpg for the hybrid is LESS than my current vehicle. The only benefit to getting the hybrid would be a little bit faster of a truck, and the ability to have an onboard generator. Now since I don’t care about speed, I could get a generator for the price of one monthly payment of this truck and throw it in the bed and boom. Now my truck gets better mpg than the hybrid and has an onboard generator.

Now on to longterm reliability and usage. CHEAP replaceable battery packs would be a huge boon to the EV, as replacing a bttery pack on an EV is currently already easier than replacing an ICE. The problem is the very high cost of said battery. I can get 15+ years out of a properly maintained ICE. You will not get that out of a current battery pack. Obviously there are outliers to that, but for the most part goodluck getting an older affordable EV that wont need a battery in a few years.

Obviously battery tech will improve in the coming years to help change that and I can’t wait to see how long they can get them to last and how cheap they can make replacements.

 

[woodgeek]

I would feel awkward to ask a friend/relative, “hey do you mind if I fill up my fuel tank on your dime”?

I know what she pays per kWh, and give her $20 for a full charge. She wants to be polite, and I insist, telling her it would cost me an hour and $40 to get the same from a fast charger.

 

[woodgeek]

In Tesla's you can pop up the superchargers and see how busy they are, i checked out the supercharger in Wisconsin Dells and when i looked 11 out of 12 stalls were in use. With everyone moving to NACS i got to imagine that wait times are going to be a thing during peak travel times. I can't imagine what would be needed if say 50% of the cars on the road were EV. I feel like you'd need Costco size parking lots filled with chargers along major interstates every 10 or 20 miles. This summer we drove to Duluth, MN and there was a good stretch (150 miles?) with zero charging options//so we had to charge to 90% just to have a buffer to make it to the next stop.

Electrify America is the same, more or less. Its just in the area around NYC all the stations are full all of the time. And that is where I need to charge to go to CT.

As for how many stalls we need to replace ICE... we will need a LOT. But as fast charging is getting faster, it will be better. For example:

-- I had to charge when I was already over 50% SOC, bc there were no chargers in the 'zone' I needed. So I was often only charging at 25-30 kw (!!). I am sure my next EV will charge at >100 kW, and when there are more stations, I will be able able to charge at lower SOC. So if I can charge in <1/4rd the time I do now... less congestion.
--A lot of folks (newbs?) were sitting there charging to 100% (and ofc charging 80-100% takes forever). For no reason other than they thought they were supposed to do that. One example was a delivery van with two guys in the front, maybe they were on the clock to waste time at the charger? The other was a Mom nursing an infant, and the infant was hungrier/slower than she had estimated. And it being CT, there was another guy using the session as a pot smoking break. He wasn't in much of a rush.
--I think that Tesla's route planning avoids >80% charging most of the time? And superchargers have wicked idle fees when you take a spot after charging is complete.

The above is part of why the Tesla network is so much better, despite not having more stalls per vehicle IIRC. Faster charging speeds are win-win-win. They can also build a stall at a small fraction of the cost of an EA station.

 

[crstrode]

99.99% or more of the users of this board are avid proponents of internal combustion carbon spewing devices to heat their houses.
I implore the moderators to infringe on their freedom of speech.
If this sort of nonsensical bickering continues, this board is doomed.

 

[Eman85]

The title of the thread is, "Why so much hate over electric vehicles?" The facts (the "science," etc.) are not so important as perceptions. It is clear from this discussion, alone, we have different perceptions about electric vehicles. And, really, the strong feelings we have are not so much about electric vehicles, but the politics, fear, desperation associated with fossil fuels, climate change, mining restrictions, carbon dioxide, pollution, safety, reliability, ...

So, those perceptions and the fire they produce in us result in "hate" (that may not be the best word to describe it, but that is the word used in the title). Probably, if the whole energy issue had been addressed in a measured fashion beginning about a half-century ago, we would be in a much better position, technology-wise and emotionally, today. But that is not the hand we were dealt. It makes sense, at this stage, to have some compassion for others' opinions (it is certain, few of us will change ours because someone glares at us and vehemently argues his case). We do have a right to our own opinion in this country. Civility will not slow the pace your opinion is adopted.

I'm the OP and yes "hate" is a powerful word and I used because of what I see, hear and rad in the real world. Some have even used may they rot in hell, pretty powerful hate speech, in referring to EV owners and proponents.

Less than a half century is about the right timing when we tore the solar panels off of the White House and our energy policy became use more energy.

 

[woodgeek]

I'm the OP and yes "hate" is a powerful word and I used because of what I see, hear and rad in the real world. Some have even used may they rot in hell, pretty powerful hate speech, in referring to EV owners and proponents.

Less than a half century is about the right timing when we tore the solar panels off of the White House and our energy policy became use more energy.

Democracy is in the end, a popularity contest, and not a 'do the right thing' contest.

People like having access to large amounts of cheap energy, whether it be a fast car, a big truck or a roaring wood stove on a winter night.

Incumbent politicians fear increases in gasoline prices more than their electoral opponents.

The goal of engineers in the 21st century is to deliver abundant cheap energy with as little CO2 on the side as possible. And 23 years in, that seems to be becoming a reality, despite all the misinformation and whining by the 20th century energy incumbents.

 

[Duds13]

I'd venture to guess the same people pushing for EVs and blasting those who wish to either drive an ICE vehicle or also have the option to purchase and EV, are the same people who pointed fingers at those who didn't get a certain vaccine in the last couple of years and called them all sorts of names and were ready to blame them for the end of society.

Very ironic this is a website about burning firewood, yet seems to lean way to the left...

 

[woodgeek]

Very ironic this is a website about burning firewood, yet seems to lean way to the left...

Ironic? I think everyone loves a nice warm fire, it transcends politics.