Why so much hate over electric vehicles?

[EatenByLimestone]

I think we’re lucky that 2 cars left unattended in a garage at night can’t have a little car.

 

[bholler]

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

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We are not number 2. We aren't even in the top 10>

If we are talking percapita sure. But the way it was said that countries pollute more I took that as overall not percapita

 

[NHWS]

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

Find out the most polluted countries in the world in 2023. Check out which country in the world had the highest level of air pollution PM2.5. Download the IQAir AirVisual world air quality report.

www.iqair.com

We are not number 2. We aren't even in the top 10>

Countries creating pollution are not the same as countries whose air is polluted. Air moves. Also, larger, more industrialized countries are likely to create more total pollution than smaller, less industrialized countries, and that needs to be considered.

I don't claim to have any knowledge about the relative amount of pollution of various kinds currently being created by various countries, but it isn't clear that this report is the right source.

 

[sargeott]

Um, there is a direct corlilation with why the air is polluted. This is exactly why California has the strongest vehicle emssions programs in our country. Because their air was disgusting becasue of all the people.

Please don't diminish the evidence I just gave. Science either is or isn't facts.

Additionally, CO2 isn't pollution. It's what we exhail and plants breath. Looking at studies that just talk about Co2 emmisions are distorting the fact.
Sure, pollution has large increase of Co2 present, but it is different than NOX, CarbonMonoxide, soot etc. that adds to polution evidence.

Back to my points:
States banning the sales and registration of ICE vehicles is a ban. If you force people to buy EVs than you are eliminating a certain class of people that can't afford them, from being able to travel outside the relm of charging stations.
Diversification of types of vehicles is a better answer. EVs make sense for certain jobs and tasks, but not everything. Every tool has a job, my remove all of the screw drivers from the world and tell them hammers will work as a replacement.

 

[NHWS]

Please don't diminish the evidence I just gave. Science either is or isn't facts.

Science is almost never just facts. Science is about data collected by some person or people in some context, and then interpreted. The collection and interpretation can be done with great integrity, or they can be highly political.

 

[sargeott]

Science is almost never just facts. Science is about data collected by some person or people in some context, and then interpreted. The collection and interpretation can be done with great integrity, or they can be highly political.

Climate change is very polititcal.

 

[bholler]

Climate change is very polititcal.

As is the denial of it

 

[bholler]

Um, there is a direct corlilation with why the air is polluted. This is exactly why California has the strongest vehicle emssions programs in our country. Because their air was disgusting becasue of all the people.

Please don't diminish the evidence I just gave. Science either is or isn't facts.

Additionally, CO2 isn't pollution. It's what we exhail and plants breath. Looking at studies that just talk about Co2 emmisions are distorting the fact.
Sure, pollution has large increase of Co2 present, but it is different than NOX, CarbonMonoxide, soot etc. that adds to polution evidence.

Back to my points:
States banning the sales and registration of ICE vehicles is a ban. If you force people to buy EVs than you are eliminating a certain class of people that can't afford them, from being able to travel outside the relm of charging stations.
Diversification of types of vehicles is a better answer. EVs make sense for certain jobs and tasks, but not everything. Every tool has a job, my remove all of the screw drivers from the world and tell them hammers will work as a replacement.

What states have banned the sale or registration of ice vehicles?

 

[NHWS]

States banning the sales and registration of ICE vehicles is a ban. If you force people to buy EVs than you are eliminating a certain class of people that can't afford them, from being able to travel outside the relm of charging stations.

Agreed. Continued pollution has costs, too.

I don't really care what fuel powers travel. Fossil fuels, electricity, hydrogen, magic... the point is to allow free (as in freedom), affordable travel without corporate or government control. We're not there now; travel is far too expensive for too many people. Getting better, or at least not getting worse, is important.

Range and refueling time/effort are important. IMO, EVs aren't there yet. I know other people who rarely travel long distances and who are able to home-charge who are already comfortable with current EV range.

Breathing and food production are important, too. This isn't good-v-evil, this may require trading off good-v-good.

EVs are worth investigation. Battery tech is improving fairly quickly. It's too soon to know if EVs will meet all of the needs by 2035 without negative side effects. Bans announced today are a political tool to encourage investigation. If the tech is not ready in time, then enforcing them would take a different kind of government than most of the first world has today. EVs are not the only way to reduce travel-related pollution, but they are getting the most attention at the moment.

Fossel-fuel travel is not the only cause of pollution. Focusing attention only on travel is disingenuous.

 

[Dieselhead]

I don't understand all of the hate over electric vehicles, it's everywhere people spreading hatred over them and the people that own them. What is the reason for the hate? Is it if you don't understand it you must hate it? It seems to bleed over to lithium batteries and the mining of lithium.

Because it’s being forced on us one way or the other, by subsidizing them with tax incentives and lobbying against petroleum companies costing our gas and diesel prices to go up. We pay for the infrastructure weather we want it or not. Anyone can see it’s not as environmentally friendly as AOC and the squad make it out to be....

 

[Dieselhead]

By who? What bill is pushing this?

CT just tried it, thankfully it failed.

 

[bholler]

Because it’s being forced on us one way or the other, by subsidizing them with tax incentives and lobbying against petroleum companies costing our gas and diesel prices to go up. We pay for the infrastructure weather we want it or not. Anyone can see it’s not as environmentally friendly as AOC and the squad make it out to be....

So subsidizing oil companies is good but helping alternatives is bad?

 

[bholler]

CT just tried it, thankfully it failed.

Yes there have been a few bills proposed that doesn't make them law

 

[Dieselhead]

The federal gas stove "ban" does not exist. It was a proposal. I know of some bans for gas stoves in new construction in some cities in California. There are well known negative effects to gas stoves- they pollute a lot. Burning fuel with an open flame is about the worst way for pollution. You wouldn't burn a puddle of gasoline in the house even if it was safe just due to the pollution. A gas stove is pretty much the same thing.

We recently got a CO2 meter which I left in the great room that has the kitchen on one end. Last night we had a couple burners going making Christmas dinner. The CO2 levels are in the 450-550 range normally (leaky '80s house) but hit 900 after cooking with multiple burners going. That's the highest we've seen. Of course that meter is not measuring the other pollutants, which are worse for health.

Supposedly induction stoves do pretty well these days. For our new house we're planning 100% electrical with induction stove, heat pumps and heat pump clothes dryer replacing what are propane appliances in our current house.

BTW for 100 years there's been a concerted effort by the gas industry to promote gas stoves. Not because they're good for us but because they're good for the gas industry. Remember the tag line "now we're cooking with gas"? That was placed with Bob Hope by the ad agency. https://www.motherjones.com/environ...ustry-convinced-americans-to-love-gas-stoves/

Wow your stove was putting out carbon dioxide that’s special.

 

[Dieselhead]

So subsidizing oil companies is good but helping alternatives is bad?

I don’t get a almost 10k tax break to buy a new ICE vehicle. And where is that tax break money coming from? Me and you guy.

 

[Dieselhead]

Yes there have been a few bills proposed that doesn't make them law

Try try again, it just shows the mentality out there. A town nearby just banned gas powered leaf blowers. Is that forcing battery power on people?

 

[bholler]

I don’t get a almost 10k tax break to buy a new ICE vehicle. And where is that tax break money coming from? Me and you guy.

Yes and where is all the money given to oil and gas companies coming from? Me and you as well.

 

[bholler]

Try try again, it just shows the mentality out there. A town nearby just banned gas powered leaf blowers. Is that forcing battery power on people?

Yes it is but it's not forcing electric vehicles on people.

There are people who would like all kinds of stuff to become law on both sides of the political spectrum. That doesn't mean its going to ever happen.

 

[NHWS]

A town nearby just banned gas powered leaf blowers. Is that forcing battery power on people?

Did they ban gas powered chainsaws? Lawn mowers? Snow blowers? Wood splitters? Tractors (diesel powered)?

If not...maybe they meant to force battery power on people. If that's the case, sounds like they did a remarkably incompetent job of it. I'm not too worried about a bunch of local politicians. Sometimes-incompetent local government is common. Problems like that tend to self correct in a short while. The state and federal politicians have a lot more power.

Then again, maybe they were just tired of waking up at dawn to the (not-so-)sweet sound of unmuffled engines on the street outside their homes.

 

[begreen]

World's Most Polluted Countries in 2023 - PM2.5 Ranking | IQAir

Find out the most polluted countries in the world in 2023. Check out which country in the world had the highest level of air pollution PM2.5. Download the IQAir AirVisual world air quality report.

www.iqair.com

We are not number 2. We aren't even in the top 10>

That's PM 2.5, not the same at all as CO2 and CH4 emissions. It's more a measure of lower atmospheric pollution.

 

[NHWS]

Yes and where is all the money given to oil and gas companies coming from? Me and you as well.

Yes, it is. I'm getting a $2K tax rebate for installing a wood stove last year that comes from the same ultimate source.

Nobody, company or private individual, is going to invest in a new tech like EVs unless there is some reason to think that it will produce a return on investment. Most will wait for someone else to prove the tech and then jump in to an established market. If EV rebates are enough to jump-start a viable tech, they will have been worth it.

EVs might not be the answer, but the medium-to-long term predictions suggest that some answer is needed. Passing a law forbidding sales of ICE vehicles in 10 or 15 years does not require EVs. Any tech that substantially reduces vehicle emissions would fit within that ban. EVs might not be good enough by then, in which case the ban will probably be replaced by a less draconian form of encouragement. EVs happen to look like a pretty good contender at the moment, but in the longer run, hydrogen fuel cells seem promising.

It's been known for decades that most current ICE vehicles could be converted to much lower emissions by rebuilding them to burn ethanol (only). Unfortunately, distilling ethanol is an energy inefficient process, and when you add in distribution, it's a net loser. But Jimmy Carter tried to encourage the creation of a vast number of very local ethanol fuel producers. He was defeated by political and corporate interests, but the idea could come back.

 

[joop]

i guess we'll have to go nuclear if were all going electric.hydro quebec needs to build new dams to keep up with demand.i can't see other places with little or no hydro capacity being able to keep up with demand.

 

[Eman85]

There's about 285 million total vehicles in the US. There are around 1.7 million Electric vehicles and if you count hybrids the number is just over 2 million. I fail to see the possibility or logic of how internal combustion vehicles or their fuel is going away in my life.
Are there any places any internal combustion engines have been banned or outlawed? I know some campgrounds require electric golf carts.

 

[bholler]

There's about 285 million total vehicles in the US. There are around 1.7 million Electric vehicles and if you count hybrids the number is just over 2 million. I fail to see the possibility or logic of how internal combustion vehicles or their fuel is going away in my life.
Are there any places any internal combustion engines have been banned or outlawed? I know some campgrounds require electric golf carts.

I don't expect internal combustion vehicles to go away in my lifetime. But I do expect evs to be pretty dominant pretty quickly once the battery tech improves. The efficiency durability and performance is just so much better

 

[bogieb]

Tax incentives and rebates paid by my taxes are tantamount to being "forced".
Legislation to eliminate combustion engine vehicles is tantamount to being "forced".
Increasing fossil fuel taxes to the highest in the nation and the Governor (Inslee) stating that a way to avoid these taxes is to go electric is tantamount to being "forced".
Being subjected to a mileage tax for fossil fueled vehicles, and not electric vehicles, is tantamount to being "forced"
Outlawing fossil fueled outdoor power equipment is tantamount to being "forced".
Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam. - At least that is what makes me feel "forced" in Washington state. It might feel different to East-Coast yankees.

Hu, that is so weird. "They" are trying to do that with EVs in NH since our gas taxes go directly to highway/roads/bridges (yeah, I know, that isn't purely the case but let's pretend - it at least mostly goes there). A mileage tax would ensure EVs pays "their fair share" (whatever that is since some ICE vehicles get 12 mpg and some get 40+mpg). I've heard about bills on this subject for at least 10 years, but I don't think there has been any traction on it once all is said and done.

"They" have also bandied about just charging by yearly mileage for every vehicle and doing away with the gas tax. But, then they don't get the taxes from our visitors from other states so that is/was a non-starter.