which pre-EPA water stoves were stainless?

[sloeffle]

That couple percent advantage in combustion efficiency is lost many times over in transferring the heat to the home.

Some of the OWB's in the list I posted are approved for indoor installation. If they are, then the "waste" heat would be used to heat the space, no different than a wood stove.

Most installations will be outside though. The practical part of my brain agrees with you that the overall delivered heat is probably going to be higher with a wood stove. The engineer side of my brain says maybe. That's probably a rabbit hole that isn't worth going down since we are probably talking a few % either way. Getting folks moved off of 20 - 30% efficient OWB's and over to newer gasification type units is what we should be spending our time educating people about.

 

[bholler]

Some of the OWB's in the list I posted are approved for indoor installation. If they are, then the "waste" heat would be used to heat the space, no different than a wood stove.

Most installations will be outside though. The practical part of my brain agrees with you that the overall delivered heat is probably going to be higher with a wood stove. The engineer side of my brain says maybe. That's probably a rabbit hole that isn't worth going down since we are probably talking a few % either way. Getting folks moved off of 20 - 30% efficient OWB's and over to newer gasification type units is what we should be spending our time educating people about.

I agree completely. The new stuff even if it is still outside is still pretty damn efficient.

 

[SpaceBus]

Based on what? How am I supposed to research how toxic the water treatment ingredients are if I can't even get complete ingredient lists because the ingredient list is proprietary?


But that gets back to my last question: when would you even notice the smoke? If there's smoke going up and out the chimney and blowing away, why is that such a big deal to you?


I have a neighbor with a Taylor, much like mine but a little newer -- he's had it at least since 2007 when I first moved here -- and he said he doesn't ever add any water treatment to it. If 15-20+ years is possible in a Taylor without water treatment, how much life is possible with a stainless stove without water treatment? And how long can a water stove be expected to last even with water treatment? What's the oldest water stove anyone on this forum is using?


Why not? Just curious.



Money? Besides the cost of the stove, water treatment (which is a separate question from whether I get an updated EPA stove or not), a small amount of electricity for the system, chainsaw expenses... what dollar costs are there? Are you saying the difference in electric and chainsaw dollar expenses alone would pay for an updated EPA stove long term?

Iron reacts with oxygen to form iron oxide, AKA rust. The other metals alloyed with the iron to give it the corrosion resistance will eventually leach out of the water if you don't add any treatment, as the water is naturally slightly acidic. I keep telling you to read about water chemistry for a reason. There is no amount of "proprietary chemicals" in the water additives to come close to the pollution created by the smoke from your stove. Furthermore since you aren't burning seasoned wood at least 30% of all the wood you burn is actually water, and that equates to thousands of gallons over the course of your ownership of the stove. Far more than the actual water being used to move the heat. That water coming out of the wood via the chimney is infinitely more toxic than treated water drained at the end of the season. If you put 300 gallons of water in one spot you will kill the grass even if it is creek water.

I'm not sure I understand why you don't want a modern EPA stove that will require you to cut and process less wood.

chemical composition of wood smoke

 

[Bad LP]

That's not how I'd put it, but yes. If you see things differently, I'm not trying to make any counter-argument. But if you want to convince me otherwise you'll have to give me a whole lot more information than anyone has shared int his thread so far, and probably more information than can reasonably be shared in a forum like this, and probably more information than I'm going to be motivated to read at this point. I'd want to know how these naturally occurring chemicals compare to smoke from chimneys, forest fires, camp fires, third world style cooking fires, etc. I'd want to know how these things compare to car exhaust, diesel engine exhaust, etc. I'd want to know what kind of exposure there is immediately around my stove and what kind of exposure there is once the smoke has blown away and dissipated. I'd want to know what happens to these things over time. I'd want to see controlled scientific studies comparing all these variables. Etc., etc. And even then I'm still not going to want to use unknown chemicals for water treatment, which is really a separate question from how bad wood smoke is.

"Not how you'd put it" but you're here not listening to reason or maybe to find agreement from people who think as you do. That's fine. I clearly stated I'd ventilate it if it was bothering me. I also explained how I maintain a seasoned wood pile. There is a reason many cities and towns banned these ODB's and that is because people such as yourself just don't care about others or how your choices could effect others or overall air quality. That's extra special points in my book!!
It's obvious that you're fine with burning crap wood in an old school filthy burning boiler on one hand yet your a little scared of some anti oxidizing agent to prevent rust in your water. What a concept

IMO you came here to stir some chit without any thought or a willingness to learn from any of us doing it properly. Your mind is closed and made up. You want to engage in a conversation about some wildassed potential risk from an unknown/listed chemical with blinders on because YOU don't see YOUR smoke as being any sort of problem. That's ripe.

Nobody makes stainless steel boilers because they suck and don't last but adding a little water treatment is also cheaper and more reliable. Not sure how that's wrong.

 

[Ericcc]

IMO you came here to

I came here to ask the questions I asked in my original post. I'll repeat them for you: Do the Heatmor or Central Boiler stoves from the 2000's have any parts that could rust and leak [i.e. that come in contact with the stove water and aren't stainless]? Or are just the fireboxes stainless? On some models/all? Are there any other brands that wouldn't require water treatments?

I just talked to an Aquatherm rep today, by the way, and I asked about how water treatment would be different with a boiler like theirs compared to the Taylor that I'm used to, and he said water treatment wouldn't be necessary, to just add plain water. That's also what Hardy advertised, although with the Hardys it was because they were stainless.

I'd still like to know which pre-EPA emissions regulations water stoves were all stainless (at least those parts that came in contact with the stove water.) If no one here knows the answers to those questions, that's fine, but I was hoping someone would. Maybe some answers will come along yet. I've appreciated some of the tangential things that have been said by others in this thread.

Nobody makes stainless steel boilers

As best as I can tell, the current Heatmor and Central Boiler stoves are stainless, so presumably that's the same as the early 2000's stoves of the same brands. And, of course, Hardy made stainless stoves until just a couple years ago which they made and sold for over 40 years. And Portage and Main offers a stainless steel option on its stoves. I mainly just want to know about early 2000's Heatmor and Central Boiler stoves, to what degree they're stainless, and also whether there are any other stainless early 2000's stove brands besides those.

to learn from any of us doing it properly.

No, I'm not particularly interested in learning about your views about smoke or how to burn wood according to your views. That's apparently your little crusade, and you're not winning me over to it. And it's certainly a tangent to my purposes in starting this thread, your tangent, not mine.

 

[Ericcc]

There is no amount of "proprietary chemicals" in the water additives to come close to the pollution created by the smoke from your stove.

By "proprietary" I just mean all the water treatments I've seen don't disclose what the ingredients are, so I really can't begin to judge what the issues involved with the chemicals are if I can't even find out what chemicals are in the treatment.

Smoke is a separate issue, one I'm not especially concerned about it. You apparently have different beliefs and priorities. I get that already.

The other metals alloyed with the iron to give it the corrosion resistance will eventually leach out of the water if you don't add any treatment, as the water is naturally slightly acidic.

Over what kind of time period? How would a non-pressurized water stove made of regular steel last without treatment compared to a stainless stove without treatment, and how would a stainless stove without treatment compare to a stainless stove with treatment? If I can't roughly quantify and substantiate the answer to those questions, then the simple fact that a stainless stove will eventually corrode isn't really significant to me.

For whatever it's worth, the used Hardy I just bought I think must be about 35-45 years old (because it has polybut lines attached to it), and although I haven't hooked it up yet, I did fill it to see if it would leak, and it's still holding water. I have no idea how it was used and maintained over its life, but seeing a stove that old that still holds water and with metal that looks superficially good (other than being beat up looking) is kind of impressive.

I keep telling you to read about water chemistry

If there's anything in particular you'd recommend, let me know. I'm sure I could read multiple textbooks and still have questions, but if I could something 5-10 pages long that would help me pursue my leading goals (which don't include reducing smoke compared to the Taylor I was using), that would be good, but I'm doubtful 5-10 pages of random reading on water chemistry would get me anywhere useful with my particular questions and circumstances. My primary question remains which pre-EPA water stoves were (and were not) stainless.

 

[stoveliker]

the stainless vs regular steel depends a lot on acidity of the water, metal ion (and chalcogenide) species and concentration in the water, temperature, and pressure, welds present (material used, location and: ), stress in the piping, grain size of the metal in the piping, turbulence in the water flow etc. Corrosion rates often do not go linear with these parameters, and their varying slope may differ for steel and stainless steel in the same parameter space.

People go to college in Mat. Sci. and Eng. depts studying corrosion for years. I only did about one year of (book and experiment) study of corrosion as part of my MatSciEng M.Sc.. It's complicated.

 

[Ericcc]

People go to college in Mat. Sci. and Eng. depts studying corrosion for years. I only did about one year of (book and experiment) study of corrosion as part of my MatSciEng M.Sc.. It's complicated.

Yeah, I expect most of the science is probably too complicated for what's reasonable for me to try to learn for my purposes here.

the stainless vs regular steel depends a lot on acidity of the water, metal ion (and chalcogenide) species and concentration in the water

Do you think it could make any difference to fill a stove, especially if it were a stove that only held about 100 gallons or less, with distilled water or city water or anything other special source of water other than my well water?

 

[stoveliker]

Never distilled water without adding treatment. Can't say about well vs city water.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yeah, I expect most of the science is probably too complicated for what's reasonable for me to try to learn for my purposes here.



Do you think it could make any difference to fill a stove, especially if it were a stove that only held about 100 gallons or less, with distilled water or city water or anything other special source of water other than my well water?

City water will be less acidic, but not enough to make a difference. Distilled water still won't help, as you need ALKALINE water, and pure water has a neutral PH, since that is what we measure the PH of everything else.

This will get you started: (broken link removed)

Just keep googling any questions you have about water.

I love that you are so hung up on this water quality thing, but don't have a single care in the world for the smoke, which is much more harmful. You don't know what's in the smoke, but you are OK with it going all around your property, but can't trust the water treatment. Google search "what is in boiler treatment" and you will see that for standard hydronic heaters (not actual steam boilers) some people use only caustic soda. Furthermore if you are so worried, send your water in for testing to determine what is in it. The best thing to do in your case since you want to avoid chemicals is to get the water tested when you first fill it and when you drain it to really know what is going on.

You could also look for boilers that use anode rods.

There are things you could do besides ask us "How do I make lots of smoke and also not treat my water? I want hydronic heat but don't want to spend any money or do any work besides processing 60% more wood than I really need."

 

[brenndatomu]

Can't say about well vs city water

There is no consistency there either...each well will be different unless two neighbors are tapped into the same underground vein...and city water varies wildly, based on if their water source is wells, or surface water...and each well and each body of water will be different as far as the treatment required (even just for drinking water)

 

[stoveliker]

There is no consistency there either...each well will be different unless two neighbors are tapped into the same underground vein...and city water varies wildly, based on if their water source is wells, or surface water...and each well and each body of water will be different as far as the treatment required (even just for drinking water)

I know. That's why I can't say. Just need to test the water and add what needed to protect the system...

 

[sloeffle]

Heatmaster, Crown Royal, and Polar ( I think ) all put stainless fireboxes in their stoves / OWB’s.

If you want to keep your warranty on your Heatmaster OWB you are required to send one water sample in per year. I’m pretty sure all of the stoves I mentioned come with a one gallon jug of water treatment as part of your purchase.

If a stove manufacturers are sending along water treatment with their stainless steel stoves, I’d say it’s needed. Why would you not want to use it ? It’s cheap insurance.

 

[Bad LP]

Only way to know Jack $hit is a water sample.
That does not cover make up loss over time.

 

[salecker]

No, I'm not particularly interested in learning about your views about smoke or how to burn wood according to your views. That's apparently your little crusade, and you're not winning me over to it. And it's certainly a tangent to my purposes in starting this thread, your tangent, not mine.

The smoke thing isn't a little crusade...
It's part of being a responsible adult.
Most of the members here are here to help others get their systems working,working better.For everyone's benefit. That is the main reason for the advice you are getting.
I would conclude you are not in the responsible section,by the sounds of it. If you had a tire laying in your yard you would like to be able to burn it because you heard of someone doing that.
Our town used to have open burning of the dump,they could still do that as governments can do whatever they want.But Governments also need to set the direction for the people to follow.No more open burning. It's just not right.
I can see your neighbors hit the jackpot when it comes to neighbors.

 

[Ericcc]

The smoke thing isn't a little crusade...

It obviously is a crusade, or you wouldn't be pushing that tangent to this thread so aggressively.

I can see your neighbors hit the jackpot when it comes to neighbors.

Whatever you say, Karen.

 

[bholler]

Ok enough of this