What would you do?

[BrotherBart]

Shipper, A properly chinked log home with 6" logs gets you a R - 19 or it wouldn,t pass the energy building code.

Jim

more like r=6 maybe.

Your telling me a home with logs 6x10 only have a r-value of 6 when a stick built house with 2x4 has what? I must have missed something somewhere in buying this house.

Shipper

Depends on type of wood and log size but R-9 is about the upper limit. The two X fours in that stick built house have fiberglass insulation between them.

 

[begreen]

This is getting much more into Green Room territory but:

According to a test done by the National Bureau of standards, a 7" log is reported at about R10, a 2x4 wall about R12. But the log house has more thermal mass. That means it takes longer to raise the interior temp 1 degree, but can hold the temp once it's reached better. Log homes are a case where a night-time setback temp should be minimal. It's better to let the mass stabilize at one temp.

http://northernloghome.com/rvalue.htm

and another test done in the 80's -
"R-value in logs depending on species can be calculated at an approximate 1.45 R-value per inch of log diameter."
(broken link removed)

 

[snowtime]

The way to have a warm Log home is to use large logs. We built our home out of 18" logs that's averaging the butts and tips. Using Lodgepole pine they were fairly uniform but even so some butts were more than 24" due to the length of the house. Even with the big logs it takes a few years before they are completely dry. All the water has to come out of the ends but once it does you have an easily heated home. Our house is extremely warm. The mass takes quite a time to cool as someone has mentioned. The other necessary item is how you chink it but this is not a building forum so I will leave it at that.

 

[begreen]

Most modern log systems I've seen they try address infiltration pretty well. Usually there is a deep rabbit cut that receives a thick thermal chinking block of felt or other material where the log surfaces meet. That covers shrinkage and expansion pretty well. But even an old log home can be nicely chinked. If done right it works well.

Here's a shot of a church from the 1600s we saw in the Ukraine. That is the original horse hair chinking there.

 

[ericjeeper]

What has the dealer said he would do? He offer up any assistance in making it work our right?
Does he have a website? Does he guarantee satisfied customers?
Or is the business the type that once he has your money it is "Oh well sucks to be you " type?
Or is he just dumping you off on the manufacturer? Even if he has sold you to small of stove as it was the biggest one he carries? Even though another manufacturers insert might have offered more BTUs..But he would have lost a sale by being honest?

 

[Shipper50]

Most modern log systems I've seen they try address infiltration pretty well. Usually there is a deep rabbit cut that receives a thick thermal chinking block of felt or other material where the log surfaces meet. That covers shrinkage and expansion pretty well. But even an old log home can be nicely chinked. If done right it works well.

Here's a shot of a church from the 1600s we saw in the Ukraine. That is the original horse hair chinking there.

My house is very close to this as it has dovetails and permachinking? Pretty sure they did away with the horsehair when this house was built in 1998 from what I was told.

Shipper

 

[Shipper50]

What has the dealer said he would do? He offer up any assistance in making it work our right?
Does he have a website? Does he guarantee satisfied customers?
Or is the business the type that once he has your money it is "Oh well sucks to be you " type?
Or is he just dumping you off on the manufacturer? Even if he has sold you to small of stove as it was the biggest one he carries? Even though another manufacturers insert might have offered more BTUs..But he would have lost a sale by being honest?

He didn't say he would do anything, no he didn't offer any assistance in making it right, yes he has a website, the website says he guarantees satisfied customers.

Yes the insert was the biggest Regency makes and I wish I would have known about the P.E. Summit after reading about it.

Shipper

 

[swestall]

Other than the comments made so far, I'd say get that rep to come or have one of the reps come to your place and help you in some way.
I should talk, I'm here with the wonder of the world, Everburn, that heats when it feels like it and when the planets all align. But, I have been able to get better efficiency by spending a month or two getting to know the stove. They are all different, as someone said, and they all have their "characteristics".
I suspect if you can't live with it, you have a problem that is only resolved by getting what you really want and cutting your losses. If you are in a small town, take a little ad out in the paper and tell your story....

 

[begreen]

Most modern log systems I've seen they try address infiltration pretty well. Usually there is a deep rabbit cut that receives a thick thermal chinking block of felt or other material where the log surfaces meet. That covers shrinkage and expansion pretty well. But even an old log home can be nicely chinked. If done right it works well.

Here's a shot of a church from the 1600s we saw in the Ukraine. That is the original horse hair chinking there.

My house is very close to this as it has dovetails and permachinking? Pretty sure they did away with the horsehair when this house was built in 1998 from what I was told.

Shipper

:lol: LOL :lol: yes, I suspected they would use a more contemporary material.

 

[webbie]

Shipper, I really think you have to take a couple weeks with this thing. A block off at the bottom will definitely help. There is no magic bullet (like a PE) - we have members with PE's that cannot raise their house to the degree that you are trying to.

I'm not saying that you will be satisfied in the end, but it does not sound like the stove is falling far short. Perhaps the better block-off and some more time with it will raise your level of satisfaction and give you a longer time to consider exactly what action (if any) you want to take with the dealer.

 

[Shipper50]

Shipper, I really think you have to take a couple weeks with this thing. A block off at the bottom will definitely help. There is no magic bullet (like a PE) - we have members with PE's that cannot raise their house to the degree that you are trying to.

I'm not saying that you will be satisfied in the end, but it does not sound like the stove is falling far short. Perhaps the better block-off and some more time with it will raise your level of satisfaction and give you a longer time to consider exactly what action (if any) you want to take with the dealer.

Could you or anyone else tell me where to get this block off plate? What is another couple of $$$ when I have already spent thousands.

Also, If this block off plate allows me another 10 degrees in my house, drinks are on me as its never been more than 67 in the house with the insert running full air and wood.

Shipper

 

[babalu87]

Back to the original question, What would I do?
Buy a wood STOVE in the 2+ cubic foot firebox size range.

 

[JimWalshin845]

Buy a quality stove and get the 'quotes' by the dealership in writings, if they know your environment and BTU needs they should know how to size the stove and stand behind their commendations.

I imagine your primary heating source was designed correctly, so why not by the stove dealer?

We will all see this even more as more people will look to solid fuel.

groan, complain, call the reps, call your Senators and send feed back to all the internet groups.

Eventually someone will listen.

 

[Shipper50]

I wanted to buy a free standing stove in the first place and the dealer talked me out of it. I wanted a Hearthstone soap and he showed me how the doors handles and latch were inferior to the door on the Regency.

So your all saying to get a stove, what do I do with a brand new Regency I3100 that I paid like $2500?

Shipper

 

[Cath]

Buy a quality stove and get the 'quotes' by the dealership in writings, if they know your environment and BTU needs they should know how to size the stove and stand behind their commendations.
...
groan, complain, call the reps, call your Senators and send feed back to all the internet groups.

Eventually someone will listen.

Shipper,
I'd like to expand on Jim's comments and suggest the following approach.

Locate anything you have in writing from the shop &/or the installer: estimates, quotes, invoices, receipts, work orders, hand written notes, emails, etc., etc., etc. Unless you have something in writing that specifically states that it will "heat the whole house" or that they will install the block off plate then you may have an uphill battle. Keep in mind that "heat the whole house" is subject to interpretation. Based on the feedback you are getting here the dealer may have a leg to stand on when saying that 62 +/- degrees isn't bad when it's -5 degrees outside.

You could try to argue what the industry standard is for a proper installation (e.g.: block off plate) but I'm guessing you'll find that can vary widely.

I would also check their website to see if there is anything specific you can point to that supports your position. (E.g.: installation recommendations which might include a block off plate).

If none of the above yields anything resembling a silver bullet --so to speak-- then I would recommend the strategy others have suggested. Live with it for a few weeks, and see if it is simply a matter of learning the quirks of this stove and set-up. In the process I'd try to keep the lines of communication open with the dealer. Email is a great way to try and retroactively document any representations they made. If you maintain a civil tone they may respond in kind and you may be able to establish an outline of what your reasonable expectations were.

I'd start with a polite phone call and follow up with a brief and casual, but confirmatory email that might read something like this:

Ed (or whatever his name is),
Thanks for the input, I'll try X, Y, &/or X as you suggested to see if I can't get the stove in the 68 to 70 degree range, which is what I was expecting based on the recommended stove and set up. If that doesn't work we can talk again and see if you have any other suggestions or to discuss how to improve the set-up. I'd prefer to avoid upgrading the stove for the difference in price due to the inconvenience, but the missing block off plate could do the trick.
Shipper

Notice that this alludes to a stove and setup recommendation, and the expectation of a block off, plate without being confrontational.

Then I would do exactly what the email outlines and keep track of what you do and what the results are for the next week or so. Then I would follow up with the shop again.

You might find that their attitude changes once you give the existing set up a try and they may be in a more cooperative frame of mind. If not, the email might help bolster your position if you need to get more confrontational with them.

The key is patience and a willingness to try and work with the dealer, which is undoubtedly difficult in this cold weather.

If you want to jump start the process perhaps you could suggest he provide the block off plate at dealer cost and that he absorb the labor. Or you could try and negotiate splitting the labor.

In that case I would do a follow up email similar to the one above and allude to a stove upgrade (for the difference in price) if the block off plate doesn't do the trick.

Anywhoo, easier said than done but I thought I'd throw it out there.

~Cath

 

[babalu87]

I wanted to buy a free standing stove in the first place and the dealer talked me out of it. I wanted a Hearthstone soap and he showed me how the doors handles and latch were inferior to the door on the Regency.

So your all saying to get a stove, what do I do with a brand new Regency I3100 that I paid like $2500?

Shipper

Trade it back in to the dealer and tell him to give you a fair price at trade in and consider it a lesson learned.

 

[begreen]

Which Hearthstone soap were you looking at? Was it at the same dealer?

 

[They Call Me Pete]

I feel you pain. I'm going through the same learning curve with my insert and had nothing but trouble with the store I bought mine from. I have since switched to another store. The one thing I found is DON'T believe the brochure. They paint the best picture so you'll buy the stove and the dealer(in my case) just wants the sale but service sucks. My problem is mine won't go overnight and found out "burn time" is the point from when fire starts to the point when you have coals to start another fire. I am exploring the idea that my air intake isn't working properly. This stove would be useless to me if I wasn't home all winter. I need to give it a full belly every 3-4 hours. I also have some air leaks I need to take care of as well as put in the block off plate. I'm going to do that this weekend seeing how it's going to warm up into the low 50's. Good luck and take a deep breath

 

[JimWalshin845]

[quote author="babalu87" date="1199388456]
Trade it back in to the dealer and tell him to give you a fair price at trade in and consider it a lesson learned.[/quote]

Now let me get this straight... you want him to go back to the dealer that screwed him once and then screw him twice again???? Now there is a true lesson to be learned! :coolhmm:

Hey Shipper, do you really enjoy bending over that much?

 

[swestall]

I'm still on the page of giving it a bit of time to make sure you understand the beast. Also, I think documenting what they told you, how the installation process was deficient and what would make you happy is a good idea; I would do that now.
I am in the position of having purchased a VC Defiant NC stove, it sucks. And, I am going to get rid of it next year and get a Hearthstone; I am just going to write it off to a learning experience; because I have become exhausted by my own frustration and life is too short to not enjoy it because someone or some company has gotten over on me, that happens sometimes.
If you find that you can't live with the insert then perhaps you could get what you really want for yourself and be happy. Then you can pursue the dealer in small claims court, as the amount is generally within their limit, and settle for what happens.
Sorry you are in this position but don't let it take you over. I was so mad for the first couple of months that I was "red" all the time. Finally, I decided to live with what I have until the end of the season, upgrade and dump the non working device. OH WELL......

 

[babalu87]

[quote author="babalu87" date="1199388456]
Trade it back in to the dealer and tell him to give you a fair price at trade in and consider it a lesson learned.

Now let me get this straight... you want him to go back to the dealer that screwed him once and then screw him twice again???? Now there is a true lesson to be learned! :coolhmm:

Hey Shipper, do you really enjoy bending over that much?[/quote]

All I figured was he MAY get more in trade because the original dealer installed the insert, MAYBE if he sweet talked the dealer he could get the new stove installed for free.

 

[swestall]

Yeah, you'd think that dealer would help, but from what he says, forget it....

At some point, you have to move on to keep form letting things destroy your time...

 

[ClydesdaleBurner]

I wanted to chime in on this and add to the notion of giving it more time. I'm a new burner, have had my insert for a little over a month now and I'm still messing around with it. Turning up the air, turning down the air, up, down... Like everyone has said get it roaring with full or 90% air then start bringing it down slowly. I've noticed I can't go from 90% open to 50% closed in one swift move... the fire starves and smolders. So I go from 90% open to 75%, leave it for 10 mins, then down to 60% leave it for 15 mins then to 50%. These EPA inserts are so touchy (at least mine is). I notice that if the fire is starting to die or if it's burning crazy and I move the air adjustment just a tiny bit it really effects the fire. And I'm so picky... I can't sit on the couch for more than 10 mins without getting up to adjust it.

Anyway give it a few weeks and really play with the different air settings to find that sweet spot.

Good luck.

 

[bokehman]

The dealer told me today that they had put a plate at the top of the chimney and that would block off heat going out of the chimney. He also said they put insulation in the damper area, not a block off plate.

If the chimney is internal that configuration should be good as any heat taken into the masonry will be re-radiated back into the house.

I have closed the air off to about 65%

I'd get it up to temp and then close the primary completely. I find with my insert that it radiates a bit more heat (and eats a lot more wood) as soon as the primary is opened but the room air temperature starts to fall.

Also how high are your ceilings? Have you got a load of heat trapped up there. Mine are only just over 8' but if I switch on the ceiling fan I pick up almost 10 degrees and get a lot more heat in the rest of the house too.

 

[iceman]

Shipper, I really think you have to take a couple weeks with this thing. A block off at the bottom will definitely help. There is no magic bullet (like a PE) - we have members with PE's that cannot raise their house to the degree that you are trying to.

I'm not saying that you will be satisfied in the end, but it does not sound like the stove is falling far short. Perhaps the better block-off and some more time with it will raise your level of satisfaction and give you a longer time to consider exactly what action (if any) you want to take with the dealer.

Magic bullet = PE...(lol)

we have members with PE's that cannot raise their house to the degree that you are trying to
(its the insulation not the pe)
lol