What to do? Help me with fireplace.

[bholler]

The chances of that fireplace working without smoke spillage are pretty slim. I have yet to see one with that type of design thst worked properly

 

[Pattonky]

I spoke to my wife about the circumstances some more and with a nod to efficiency and a backup heating option we will be getting an insert for this fireplace. The question will be what insert we get. I am now wondering whether I should do the smoke/inspection test or just get the dealer for Pacfic Energy to come out and give me an estimate for the insert install. Thoughts?

 

[bholler]

I spoke to my wife about the circumstances some more and with a nod to efficiency and a backup heating option we will be getting an insert for this fireplace. The question will be what insert we get. I am now wondering whether I should do the smoke/inspection test or just get the dealer for Pacfic Energy to come out and give me an estimate for the insert install. Thoughts?

There is no reason to do a smoke test if you will be installing an insert because it will get an insulated liner installed with it

 

[Pattonky]

There is no reason to do a smoke test if you will be installing an insert because it will get an insulated liner installed with it

That is exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for letting me know though as I was not sure at all!

 

[Ashful]

The chances of that fireplace working without smoke spillage are pretty slim. I have yet to see one with that type of design thst worked properly

It can be done, but with an effective open cross-section on-par with most late-18th century old cooking fireplaces, you’re to need a chimney large enough for Santa to slide down without sucking in his gut. This is where most modern fireplaces fall short, when they try to pull big openings, like this one.

If you think an open 80 square inch (typical 8” x 10” clay tile) chimney sucks some heat out of the house, visit an older home with a 600 square inch (24” square) chimney.

 

[bholler]

It can be done, but with an effective open cross-section on-par with most late-18th century old cooking fireplaces, you’re to need a chimney large enough for Santa to slide down without sucking in his gut. This is where most modern fireplaces fall short, when they try to pull big openings, like this one.

If you think an open 80 square inch (typical 8” x 10” clay tile) chimney sucks some heat out of the house, visit an older home with a 600 square inch (24” square) chimney.

Well yes it could be done but you would have to go up to an 18×12 or an 18x18. We work on one double sided fireplace oposite sides not like this one that does actually work. It has 18x24 tiles in it. The problem is most masons build them with 12x12 tiles and it simply is not enough volume.

 

[Mark8]

Well yes it could be done but you would have to go up to an 18×12 or an 18x18. We work on one double sided fireplace oposite sides not like this one that does actually work. It has 18x24 tiles in it. The problem is most masons build them with 12x12 tiles and it simply is not enough volume.

So in the 1960's we supposedly sent a man to the moon but could not figure out how to design and build a brick chimney so it would draft properly. Hummm That's a head scratcher.

Pattonky, Just curious what year was this house built.

 

[bholler]

So in the 1960's we supposedly sent a man to the moon but could not figure out how to design and build a brick chimney so it would draft properly. Hummm That's a head scratcher.

Just curious what year was this house built.

There were plenty of guys who could design and build fireplaces that worked. But they cost allot more. And honestly a large percentage of fireplaces were never used.

 

[Mark8]

There were plenty of guys who could design and build fireplaces that worked. But they cost allot more. And honestly a large percentage of fireplaces were never used.

If you bricked his fireplace off on the right side then would it work properly.

 

[bholler]

If you bricked his fireplace off on the right side then would it work properly.

Possibly. It all depends on the ratios and the design of the smoke chamber

 

[Pattonky]

So in the 1960's we supposedly sent a man to the moon but could not figure out how to design and build a brick chimney so it would draft properly. Hummm That's a head scratcher.

Pattonky, Just curious what year was this house built.

I believe the house was built in the late 60's, but I can't be sure.

 

[Pattonky]

I looked around on line and there seems to be a golden ratio of ten to one for proper draft. This two sides open configuration does therefore call for a larger flue. I think mine had a chance to draft based on the numbers, but ultimately we just didn't see putting that in to use with the inefficiency in burning that we would have with that setup. This is why we will put an insert in.

 

[bholler]

I looked around on line and there seems to be a golden ratio of ten to one for proper draft. This two sides open configuration does therefore call for a larger flue. I think mine had a chance to draft based on the numbers, but ultimately we just didn't see putting that in to use with the inefficiency in burning that we would have with that setup. This is why we will put an insert in.

Yes 10 to 1 is the ratio that works well for a traditionsl fireplace but with fire places that have multiple sides open you get some turbulence which needs more volume to overcome. More like 8 to 1. And with a well designed firebox and smoke chamber. Usually based on a rumford you can get to 14 to 1. I usually do 12 to 1 on rumfords i build.

 

[Pattonky]

Asked my inspector whether there was a need for test/inspection if I had decided that I was going to go with insert. Told him that if it was unnecessary to let me know what I owed him for his time to this point as I knew this was his business. He told me it was the same price so I told him I would see him Thursday.

 

[Ashful]

So in the 1960's we supposedly sent a man to the moon but could not figure out how to design and build a brick chimney so it would draft properly. Hummm That's a head scratcher.

Nothing against bholler, he's a smart guy by all accounts, but how far would that Saturn rocket have actually gotten if we let the average masonry contractor run the program?

 

[bholler]

Asked my inspector whether there was a need for test/inspection if I had decided that I was going to go with insert. Told him that if it was unnecessary to let me know what I owed him for his time to this point as I knew this was his business. He told me it was the same price so I told him I would see him Thursday.

Wow he was going to charge you full price even though you were canceling 3 days ahead of time. That is pretty harsh.

 

[bholler]

Nothing against bholler, he's a smart guy by all accounts, but how far would that Saturn rocket have actually gotten if we let the average masonry contractor run the program?

I think there may have been a weight issue with the rocket.

And btw i am a sweep who does masonry true masons can lay bricks in circles around me. But my fireplaces work.

 

[Pattonky]

Wow he was going to charge you full price even though you were canceling 3 days ahead of time. That is pretty harsh.

Right, I thought if unnecessary I could save us both some time. I asked far a charge for his time and that was what he said. It is a 44 mile one way trip for him so I thought eliminating that cost would have gotten a lower price. Anyway, looks like I will get to report on what he says. I don't anticipate working with him or providing referrals going forward

 

[HomeinPA]

Good suggestion but I would go with the larger H300 with the short leg kit. This stove is an easy breather and comes in at about 24" high with the shorter legs.

I went with the 200 series due to the depth of the firebox. Even at that the hearth/slab would need to have an overhang. I think the 300 series are deeper still.

I still don't think I've seen an answer about insert vs. hearth stove. I may have missed it though.

 

[begreen]

I went with the 200 series due to the depth of the firebox. Even at that the hearth/slab would need to have an overhang. I think the 300 series are deeper still.

I was thinking ember protection hearth extension at the floor level.

 

[Pattonky]

I went with the 200 series due to the depth of the firebox. Even at that the hearth/slab would need to have an overhang. I think the 300 series are deeper still.

I still don't think I've seen an answer about insert vs. hearth stove. I may have missed it though.

Fireplace insert with something covering the side opening. I would like for it to have a clean sort of modern look. I really like the PE Neo 1.6 insert, but may not have the dimensions to fit it in.

 

[HomeinPA]

I was thinking ember protection hearth extension at the floor level.

I may have gotten his measurements wrong. I thought the current hearth was only 18 inches to the back of the firebox. The 200's are 21 deep which would have required the overhang at the front to support the legs as opposed to the 24" 300 series. Both would work but I thought the 6" overhang would have looked weird. Like I said, maybe I eyed the measurements wrong in the picture.

 

[begreen]

I may have gotten his measurements wrong. I thought the current hearth was only 18 inches to the back of the firebox. The 200's are 21 deep which would have required the overhang at the front to support the legs as opposed to the 24" 300 series. Both would work but I thought the 6" overhang would have looked weird. Like I said, maybe I eyed the measurements wrong in the picture.

You could be right. We only got approximate dimensions. Sounds like the focus now is on an insert.

 

[HomeinPA]

I'm seeing that. Not sure I agree though. Efficiency wise it's certainly better than a fireplace but appearance wise....you should still extend the hearth a bit, you have to brick in the right side and then you have the issue of the surround hanging off the right side with nothing behind it probably. From both a visual and an overall cost perspective I would favor a freestanding stove over an insert. I'd also think you'd get more radiant heat from the hearth stove arrangement. But hey, as the free help used to tell me when working on my home's addition - "It ain't our house!"

 

[Pattonky]

It is not over yet! I am absolutely still listening and have ordered nothing. Keep talking!