Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.

[woodgeek]

What if….. blood cholesterol didn’t matter? The guidelines have changed in the last several years. Turns out, cholesterol is not that bad and can actually be a good thing to shuttle the energy around in your body once you become less dependent on glucose for energy.

Cholesterol is needed for life, which is why we make it in our bodies, and the amount in our cells is very tightly regulated. The complex way the cholesterol is packaged in blood (LDL, HDL, etc) has taken decades to elucidate, but the science is now clear. Total cholesterol is merely correlated with progression of CVD, while LDL (specifically the LDL particles tagged with the ApoB protein) is causally linked to progression of CVD plaques.

Drugs that DO lower ApoB (statins and others) DO slow the progress of plaque formation and reduce the risk of CVD events in randomized controlled trials (RCTs). Drugs that affect things like HDL or total cholesterol without changing ApoB-LDL do not have detectable health benefits, and failed in RCT testing.

A WFPB, low vegetable oil diet where people eat as much as they want reduces LDL cholesterol levels more than any other diet studied, to a level where CVD is essentially non-existent (and well below current US guidelines).

This also is spot on, but it is hard for most folks to move from the "truths" that were preached and believed for years.

Um, I'm not following preachers. I'm reading information gleaned from decades of studies, mostly RCTs involving tens or hundreds of thousands of people, as summarized by entities like the US National Academy of Science, Institute of Medicine, their European counterparts and the WHO.

 

[PAbeech]

Eat organic food. Simple as that

 

[Dan Freeman]

Um, I'm not following preachers. I'm reading information gleaned from decades of studies, mostly RCTs involving tens or hundreds of thousands of people, as summarized by entities like the US National Academy of Science, Institute of Medicine, their European counterparts and the WHO.

No need to feel like that was directed to you. I know you do your studying. In fact, I know you are meticulous in your study from other topics.

By "preaching", I meant what was most believed and taught from our understanding on the topic. It is now getting looked at again with the possibility we didn't have all the answers for years. Remember when the best minds thought the earth was flat or the sun revolved around the earth. It still happens today. Not always, but it does. We need to be open.

 

[Dan Freeman]

Eat organic food. Simple as that

OMG...no! Have you read some of the things on organic labels? Talk about sugar bombs!

Organic just means nothing artificial or chemical. (produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents) In addition, organic foods have a reputation for being healthy and nutritious, but studies show that there is actually very little difference in nutritional value between organic and conventional foods grown and prepared.

 

[SpaceBus]

The major source of saturated fat in the US diet is DAIRY, not fat in any meat. Chicken is #1 among meat sources.

Eliminating dairy and eating (truly) lean meat in moderation will be a big health move in the WFPB direction relative to the average US diet. And would probably be healthier than a vegetarian who eats a lot of dairy and sugar, or a 'junk food vegan' that eats a lot of food with tons of sugar and refined oils.

I always forget about dairy, because I consume so little in my personal life. Some cultured dairy products, like cheese and butter, seem to to be fine for me in moderation, but I'm certain there are people that would be better off with none. I suspect the microbial activity converts a majority of the constituents that would be described as toxic or antinutrients into short chain VFAs and microbial protein. I think we both agree it's less about what we eat, and more about how we prepare it for consumption. A meal made with lean beef is great, until you start frying it, adding breading (mostly processed white flour), etc. Donuts are usually vegan, but far from healthy.

Most naturally occurring fats are also not hydrogenated, and combined with a lot of fiber and other beneficial food components. I would guess the hydrogenated fats added to most food, usually in the form of palm oil, are probably worse than any dairy fats. However, the dairy fat used in the western diet is usually saturated by some processing step and there are just caves full of milkfat and "government cheese" removed from most milk sold in stores. That stuff is often added back into foods making them pretty unhealthy.

How are most people getting so much dairy fats? Is it all from the hydrogenated fake cheese products? A lot of stuff called "cheese" is actually just milk fat and hydrogenated oils. The "cheese" at some fast food joints doesn't eve have dairy at all! When I worked at Waffle House the "cheese", cooking oil, and "butter" all had the same ingredients, none of it was dairy. From my casual observations most "dairy" products are actually just thinly disguised hydrogenated vegetable fats. I'm not convinced authentic real dairy products are even a problem, since there are actually not that many on the market. The processed sugars always stand out to me as the real threat to human health. Sugar is also addicting and food addictions are the hardest to treat. It's hard to break a habit that is hijacking your survival response for sustenance.

Conveniently for the food industry as a whole, the movement to less meat is ok, because sugar is not a meat product! Like you say, there are plenty of unhealthy vegan/vegetarian foods. I do understand the desire to reduce emissions from animal products, but I don't think the animals are the problem. It's how humans manage the animals. Overgrazing/exploitation of land results in desertification creating a positive feedback loop with the climate. Instead of letting all of the animal waste from CAFOs run into groundwater sources, why not collect it and use it for fertilizing soil, which can then be used to feed more animals without destroying the soil. Poor management of livestock is the problem, not the livestock themselves. Feeding grain to ruminants is the primary means by which humans get beef, but it's horribly inefficient and bad for the animal. With a livestock industry that doesn't have to pay to clean up after itself, they've focused instead on how to make the most money on the least amount of land. A holistic approach to animal husbandry needs to be adopted by global livestock producers. The ranchers out in the west that let huge herds graze naturally actually have it right! The animals leave their waste where they ate, creating more future pasture for grazing. The problem is too many animals will be concentrated in one place in the name of profits which goes back to the overgrazing/exploitation of natural resources. Cultures which use rotational grazing and waste recycling have no desertification and no real problems with GHG/ammonia pollution. Prior to trading with cultures that had vastly larger land areas Japanese farmers paid for human waste for fertilizing productive land.

So much is wasted in a capitalist livestock industry, and as a result livestock appears to be a default climate change driver when it doesn't have to be.

 

[woodgeek]

I mean there is a stack of “studies” and a pile of MDs that could go to the OP and tear it to pieces while stating the opposite is true but only if you choose to listen. These fad diets are like religions in many ways.

I believe that there is huge overlap among the fad diet extremes and it’s the biggest issues with the best benefit. Cut sugar and seed oils, be a normal weight, and be active.

I find the fact that vegans will die without vitamin supplements repulsive. With thumbs and tools, humans don’t need wolf like canine teeth. I eat lots of eggs, as I want complete proteins with all of the essential amino acids.

1. Science doesn't work by accumulating studies that are contradictory such that no conclusion can be found. In fact, none of the issues around saturated fat and LDL causing CVD have been controversial for a couple decades now.

2. Most MDs are NOT scientists, receive very little training on nutrition while in med school, and are not required to keep up to date on nutrition science.

3. The Western diet is SUCH a freaking mess that eliminating many different things will result in improved health. Cutting refined sugars and refined oils (such as seed oils) and having high activity and normal BMI will be very healthy moves. But they are not the ONLY healthy moves. And may not be sufficient to protect you from CVD if you have high LDL cholesterol.

4. If you prefer, I could get the needed micrograms of B-12 by eating a teaspoon of dirt per week, just like our ancestors did, and where the B-12 in your meat animals get it from. Instead I get it in purified form, extracted from bacteria. Disgusting!

5. The complete protein stuff is a non-issue on a varied WFPB diet. Massively overstated by studies a hundred years ago. Modern folks today on a WFPB diet do not have problems with protein deficiency or other nutrients (like calcium or iron). That is all BS propaganda from the Beef and Egg Lobby.

 

[SpaceBus]

OMG...no! Have you read some of the things on organic labels? Talk about sugar bombs! Organic just means nothing artificial or chemical. Not all organic things are good for you either. In addition, organic foods have a reputation for being healthy and nutritious, but studies show that there is actually very little difference in nutritional value between organic and conventional foods grown and prepared.

The USDA organic certification is also a bit of a fantasy. I work on an organic farm and the rules are kind of insane. It makes everything so much more energy intensive to comply with the rules. My preference would be for products to just be made without any kind of added pesticides, poisons, toxic chemicals, etc. I don't care if something is GMO free, no animal products used, etc. I just don't want it to have added toxins. That goes for animal feed products as well, I don't want residual toxins ending up in the products from my own farm.

I often supplement my chicken flock feed with animal products when they are available, but that would prevent me from getting a USDA organic sticker, should I want one. For instance, I filled two five gallon buckets while fishing for mackerel this year, and I gave the residual products to my chickens to supplement the feed I normally give them. Whenever we go out to the tidal flats we like to collect invasive crabs and feed those to the chickens as well. Both are totally against the rules if you want that USDA Organic label.

When shopping I do get organic products when I can afford to, but it's unrealistic for most people.

 

[EbS-P]

Is the data to the point where they can make estimates about life expectancy increases? Following along……

 

[woodgeek]

I always forget about dairy, because I consume so little in my personal life. Some cultured dairy products, like cheese and butter, seem to to be fine for me in moderation, but I'm certain there are people that would be better off with none. I suspect the microbial activity converts a majority of the constituents that would be described as toxic or antinutrients into short chain VFAs and microbial protein. I think we both agree it's less about what we eat, and more about how we prepare it for consumption. A meal made with lean beef is great, until you start frying it, adding breading (mostly processed white flour), etc. Donuts are usually vegan, but far from healthy.

Most naturally occurring fats are also not hydrogenated, and combined with a lot of fiber and other beneficial food components. I would guess the hydrogenated fats added to most food, usually in the form of palm oil, are probably worse than any dairy fats. However, the dairy fat used in the western diet is usually saturated by some processing step and there are just caves full of milkfat and "government cheese" removed from most milk sold in stores. That stuff is often added back into foods making them pretty unhealthy.

How are most people getting so much dairy fats? Is it all from the hydrogenated fake cheese products? A lot of stuff called "cheese" is actually just milk fat and hydrogenated oils. The "cheese" at some fast food joints doesn't eve have dairy at all! When I worked at Waffle House the "cheese", cooking oil, and "butter" all had the same ingredients, none of it was dairy. From my casual observations most "dairy" products are actually just thinly disguised hydrogenated vegetable fats. I'm not convinced authentic real dairy products are even a problem, since there are actually not that many on the market. The processed sugars always stand out to me as the real threat to human health. Sugar is also addicting and food addictions are the hardest to treat. It's hard to break a habit that is hijacking your survival response for sustenance.

Conveniently for the food industry as a whole, the movement to less meat is ok, because sugar is not a meat product! Like you say, there are plenty of unhealthy vegan/vegetarian foods. I do understand the desire to reduce emissions from animal products, but I don't think the animals are the problem. It's how humans manage the animals. Overgrazing/exploitation of land results in desertification creating a positive feedback loop with the climate. Instead of letting all of the animal waste from CAFOs run into groundwater sources, why not collect it and use it for fertilizing soil, which can then be used to feed more animals without destroying the soil. Poor management of livestock is the problem, not the livestock themselves. Feeding grain to ruminants is the primary means by which humans get beef, but it's horribly inefficient and bad for the animal. With a livestock industry that doesn't have to pay to clean up after itself, they've focused instead on how to make the most money on the least amount of land. A holistic approach to animal husbandry needs to be adopted by global livestock producers. The ranchers out in the west that let huge herds graze naturally actually have it right! The animals leave their waste where they ate, creating more future pasture for grazing. The problem is too many animals will be concentrated in one place in the name of profits which goes back to the overgrazing/exploitation of natural resources. Cultures which use rotational grazing and waste recycling have no desertification and no real problems with GHG/ammonia pollution. Prior to trading with cultures that had vastly larger land areas Japanese farmers paid for human waste for fertilizing productive land.

So much is wasted in a capitalist livestock industry, and as a result livestock appears to be a default climate change driver when it doesn't have to be.

I think we (and scientists) agree that trans fats (as in hydrogenated oils) are WORSE for CVD than animal saturated fats.

Added trans fats (as opposed to the trace amounts present naturally) are mostly banned now in the US, we lagged the EU by several years due to lobbying by the big food cos. Good riddance.

As per our previous discussions, I will respectfully disagree about the sustainability of meat production... half of the habitable land in the lower 48 is used to graze animals or to grow their feed. A tiny fraction of that would suffice to replace the calories and protein needed if we stopped raising animals. We could rewild 40% of the US land area, in principle. And that does not touch the avoided water use, methane emissions, carbon emissions or zoonotic diseases.

 

[woodgeek]

Is the data to the point where they can make estimates about life expectancy increases? Following along……

If I get the question...

Seventh Day Adventists are very careful about their diet, with 40% being vegan, and the other 60% eating only select meat products they deem healthy.

Seventh-Day Adventist Diet: A Complete Guide

The Seventh-day Adventist diet is a whole-foods, plant-based diet that has been associated with many health benefits. This article explains everything you need to know about the Seventh-day Adventist diet.

www.healthline.com

Studies show that as a group they live about 10 years longer than other americans, and the vegan ones live a couple years longer than the non-vegan ones.

**I think this (+2 years) fits in well with the discussion here, that lean, quality meat in moderation, and maybe low-fat dairy, are not a big deal if the rest of your diet is WFPB.**

They also have 78% lower incidence of diabetes and very low CVD rates. To me, I would guess this gives a higher quality of life at these extreme ages, not just the longer lifespan.

 

[woodgeek]

No need to feel like that was directed to you. I know you do your studying. In fact, I know you are meticulous in your study from other topics.

By "preaching", I meant what was most believed and taught from our understanding on the topic. It is now getting looked at again with the possibility we didn't have all the answers for years. Remember when the best minds thought the earth was flat or the sun revolved around the earth. It still happens today. Not always, but it does. We need to be open.

Fair. The trick here is to tell the difference between a new surprising result being (1) Copernicus saying the Earth actually goes around the Sun and (2) Tobacco funded scientists finding that low tar cigarettes are actually OK in 1985.

As a working scientist, I see other scientists (and myself) wedded to old/wrong paradigms all the time. But (IMO) as a group we do a pretty good job of letting go of old paradigms in the face of compelling new data, and young scientists (with new untested paradigms) know that getting that compelling data (to change paradigms) is the fastest route to fame and fortune. Works waaay better than azz-kissing old grey beards with outmoded ideas.

 

[Dan Freeman]

Fair. The trick here is to tell the difference between a new surprising result being (1) Copernicus saying the Earth actually goes around the Sun and (2) Tobacco funded scientists finding that low tar cigarettes are actually OK in 1985.

As a working scientist, I see other scientists (and myself) wedded to old/wrong paradigms all the time. But (IMO) as a group we do a pretty good job of letting go of old paradigms in the face of compelling new data, and young scientists (with new untested paradigms) know that getting that compelling data (to change paradigms) is the fastest route to fame and fortune. Works waaay better than azz-kissing old grey beards with outmodes ideas.

And that's fair enough, too!

 

[Ashful]

Well... chit, guys. Remove dairy and meat, and my caloric intake would be mostly cereal, coffee, beer, and bourbon!

Somehow, I'm still fit and lean, despite a diet most would call atrocious. I know others who appear to try much harder, but with less success in managing weight and related problems. Thinking back 50 years, I cannot recall a single case in my family of any advanced or life-altering disease related to CVD, diabetes, or heart disease.

Point is, while discussing undoubtedly valid statistics, we can't ignore genetics. It would seem to this medically-uneducated observer that you might nudge your genetic disposition a bit one way or another with diet, you're still only playing the hand you were dealt.

 

[woodgeek]

@woodgeek, what turned you onto the WFPB thing? We've not met, but I always had the impression you lead a pretty healthy lifestyle. Was this a "desperate response to poor health effects or scares"?

Meh, I'm a 54 yo nerd that sits behind a desk all day. I don't hit the gym, do a lot of physical labor other than light yard work/snow shoveling. I train commute and walk about 40-50 minutes a day between that and my job. During the pandemic, I substituted the same amount of walk time around my neighborhood. I do a little light cardio running from time to time, but usually get tendonitis and quit.

I'm 6'1" and about 190 lbs. My legs are cut, but I'm pretty spindly otherwise.

I was maybe 205 lbs for many years when married, crashed my weight to 185 in 2018 when I was getting separated (and also got Hep A, detected months afterwards). My weight creeped back up over 4 years back to 200 this summer. Dropped to 190 after ditching dairy and most meat last August.

My diet was 'junk food vegetarian/flexitarian'. I probably ate meat 1-2 servings per week, but tons of dairy and eggs. My cholesterol is high, but not super high. Last time I was to a doctor was 2018, they discovered the HepA and that I had high blood pressure (Stage I). My blood pressure in managed by diet and avoiding apnea from sleeping on my back.

No scares or crises, just clear that I am not 100% in terms of cardiovascular health, and finally owning up to my own denial about it.

 

[woodgeek]

Well... chit, guys. Remove dairy and meat, and my caloric intake would be mostly cereal, coffee, beer, and bourbon!

Somehow, I'm still fit and lean, despite a diet most would call atrocious. I know others who appear to try much harder, but with less success in managing weight and related problems. Thinking back 50 years, I cannot recall a single case in my family of any advanced or life-altering disease related to CVD, diabetes, or heart disease.

Point is, while discussing undoubtedly valid statistics, we can't ignore genetics. It would seem to this medically-uneducated observer that you might nudge your genetic disposition a bit one way or another with diet, you're still only playing the hand you were dealt.

This change is hard for me bc I am an avid cook, and have a kitchen full of equipment and a dozen cookbooks. I make everything, and make a lot of amazing baked stuff. 99% of all those recipes... gone.

There is absolutely a genetic factor to all these diseases, and family history is a huge part of that.

My family seems to be pretty good with CVD and Diabetes, my mom passed after 87 years living on butter and shellfish and my Dad is still sharp at 88. They both obv lived on a high fat diet, and smoked for more than a decade when they were younger. Dad's Dad lived to 84 never setting foot in a hospital.

I'm just on a kick of feeling my age a bit, and deciding to get a bit more serious about my health (before going to my first well-visit in 5+ years).

 

[Dan Freeman]

Point is, while discussing undoubtedly valid statistics, we can't ignore genetics. It would seem to this medically-uneducated observer that you might nudge your genetic disposition a bit one way or another with diet, you're still only playing the hand you were dealt.

You will always have your anomalies, like the person who eats all the wrong things and lives to be 100 and the person who eats well and develops one of these medical conditions we've been throwing around or drops dead. I do agree with you; genetics plays such an important role. However, it doesn't seem like the huge majority of people have great genetics looking at the current weight/health statistics. Hopefully, someday, science will be able to "tease out" the genetics side of the big equation.

And another thought, some folks may have good genetics and live to be 85 when they could have lived to be 95 if they had changed some eating habits.

 

[Dan Freeman]

I'm just on a kick of feeling my age a bit, and deciding to get a bit more serious about my health (before going to my first well-visit in 5+ years).

Well, I'm 12 years ahead of you, and if you can change this aspect of your life, you will reap great benefits IMO. Believe me, the earlier you start, the easier it is to reverse, stop, or slow down the effects of diet and age.

I have great genetics in my family. While my father died at 71 (alcoholism), his side lived well into their 80's and 90's with few problems. (LOL, my paternal GF lived into his 90's and he used to pour bacon grease on his morning toast along with his bacon/sausage and eggs!) My mother lived to be 4 months shy of 102 and her mind was still sharp. My problem, my fear, is how I may have damaged myself or put a dent in my genetics in years past, even though I continue to turn things around.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think we (and scientists) agree that trans fats (as in hydrogenated oils) are WORSE for CVD than animal saturated fats.

Added trans fats (as opposed to the trace amounts present naturally) are mostly banned now in the US, we lagged the EU by several years due to lobbying by the big food cos. Good riddance.

As per our previous discussions, I will respectfully disagree about the sustainability of meat production... half of the habitable land in the lower 48 is used to graze animals or to grow their feed. A tiny fraction of that would suffice to replace the calories and protein needed if we stopped raising animals. We could rewild 40% of the US land area, in principle. And that does not touch the avoided water use, methane emissions, carbon emissions or zoonotic diseases.

Areas can be wild and still suitable for grazing. You just have to put the right animals in the right places. Think about all of the countless wild bison that used to roam the plains of North America before Europeans shot them all.

 

[begreen]

OMG...no! Have you read some of the things on organic labels? Talk about sugar bombs!

Organic just means nothing artificial or chemical. (produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents) In addition, organic foods have a reputation for being healthy and nutritious, but studies show that there is actually very little difference in nutritional value between organic and conventional foods grown and prepared.

The post-processing of the food is a bit off the point. Yes, one should be aware of what they eat with any processed food, organic or not.

The important part is that organic means that environment-destroying herbicides and pesticides were not used to grow the crop. It means that carbon-negative synthetics were not used to grow the crops. The organic label also has strong requirements for meat with regard to the farming conditions, feed, antibiotics, hormones, etc.

What 'Organic' Really Means

Are organic foods really better for your health and the environment? It's complicated.

lifehacker.com

 

[maple1]

The post-processing of the food is a bit off the point. Yes, one should be aware of what they eat with any processed food, organic or not.

The important part is that organic means that environment-destroying herbicides and pesticides were not used to grow the crop. It means that carbon-negative synthetics were not used to grow the crops. The organic label also has strong requirements for meat with regard to the farming conditions, feed, antibiotics, hormones, etc.

What 'Organic' Really Means

Are organic foods really better for your health and the environment? It's complicated.

lifehacker.com

There are certain crops where the organic label is marketing ploy, and there is no difference between organic and non-organic products. Reference my forum name for one.

 

[begreen]

There are certain crops where the organic label is marketing ploy, and there is no difference between organic and non-organic products. Reference my forum name for one.

That can happen especially with a natural product like maple syrup. There are those that want to profit from the label without effort or commitment.

 

[Poindexter]

4. If you prefer, I could get the needed micrograms of B-12 by eating a teaspoon of dirt per week, just like our ancestors did, and where the B-12 in your meat animals get it from. Instead I get it in purified form, extracted from bacteria. Disgusting!

Can you cite a reference for this without too much bother? This has bothered me for decades. "How come gorillas and chimpanzees don't seem to suffer from pernicious anemia?" If the correct answer is "The other great apes don't rinse their veg in clean water like zealous puritans," then I will sleep better. I truly have not made time to look this up in the last 30 years.

 

[Poindexter]

Well... chit, guys. Remove dairy and meat, and my caloric intake would be mostly cereal, coffee, beer, and bourbon!

Thinking back 50 years, [...]

I agree genetics is a factor. I know you are somewhat active to process all the wood you process, even with power assist. I assume you do not smoke any substance at all ever. If the dietary statement above is true, you are on a collision course with a wheelchair and a home care nurse. Your genes may buy you a few extra years, as might your activity level, but if the dietary statement is true, you are statistically screwed.

Not that many years ago (I am 55), I could honestly say the vast majority of my calories were from BBQ, dairy, beer and grains, with BBQ sauce making up an astonishing portion of my vegetable intake.

For me, the break point was my arthritis. I decided to try hitting the salad bar regularly instead of going on percocet. I am about one year in eating 5 vegetable servings a day, two dark leafy green, two pretty colors and one serving of whatever. I never did go on percocet. I am off all Rx and OTC meds for joint pain. No Mobic, no ibuprofen, no turmeric, blah, blah, blah, I am off all meds. I still process 8-10 cords annually, outdoors, at 64 degrees north latitude. I prefer to deal with cordwood in the winter months when there are no mosquitos, and I prefer to have less expensive 16" long rounds dropped in my driveway so I can split them myself with my (slow) electric splitter.

I do have appropriate clothing for this process.

Besides the 5 veg daily, I eat all the BBQ I still want with spinach leaves taking up a bunch of room in my stomach.

I did go on the "Whole 30" diet 2-3 years ago, cutting out all refined sugar for 30 days, and it was eye opening. Week 2 was really really hard to stay the course. Refined sugar has been a problem in the American diet since the colonial era.

If your dietary statement is accurate, the top three things you can do would be 1) drink at least 3 liters of water daily to keep your system flushed, 2) start taking a B complex supplement in the morning to replace the B vitamins stripped by your alcohol consumption each evening and 3) start walking 30 minutes daily on the days you are not handling high volume cordwood.

There is no shame in getting old, it is inevitable. There is no shame in managing the aging process with intelligence. There is no shame in walking, it can be quality time with your spouse that leads to grownup stuff later in the evening.

Peace be with you.

 

[Poindexter]

One thing we have only touched on here tangentially is attitude or outlook. My great grandpa signed up to join the army as a cook when the Zimmerman telegram was released to the American public. He was underaged that day, and wasn't allowed to join until he turned 18 a few months later. He came home from France smoking 2 packs of non filtered Camel cigarettes daily, and was still smoking two packs a day of non filtered Camels when he passed in his late 80s.

He would come to our farm every summer for a month or two when I was little. I think it was the year I was nine, we had a huge late spring hailstorm, with seven acres of young corn sprouts. We had a milk cow, a beef steer, and three or four horses. We needed the corn.

I still remember sitting on the front porch with him the next morning. He was working on his coffee and sucking down non filtered Camels. I was seeing devastation. He said "No one is shooting at us, this is going to be fine."

How you interpret the world around you does matter.

 

[MikeK]

"No one is shooting at us, this is going to be fine."

It matters so much. I need to borrow that one for the new year and beyond. Thanks to your great grandpa for that!