Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.
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Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I posted the above on March 30th this year.
Today I am on top of the curve looking back. I had a nice breakfast of pearled barley and kimchi with a couple quarts of water and one cup of black coffee. I got some chores done and ran some errands, with the plan of getting to my 2PM appointment on time and then eating when I got home. I was done with my errands early, so decided to "treat" myself to a meatball sub from Subway (with a glass of water, no chips, soda or cookie). I feel like crap, and I have a raging headache.
My experience, it took about 6-8 weeks of plant eating to get my system this clean. Clean enough to really notice how crappy I feel when I eat processed food.
Same @Poindexter.
I am still happily vegan since Jan 1, 2023, with little meat and dairy for a few months before that.
That said, I have some more junky meals than others. Restaurants are a challenge. There are many vegan restaurants that my GF and I have found in our area, and ofc they don't have nutrition labels. But I am sure that they lean heavily on the fat+salt+sugar formula that all humans react to. Just vegan fats, probably coconut and palm oils.
I have had a few meals like that where I felt 'hung over' the next day. I don't sweat it, but I assume it is a combination of high salt and lipidemia (a surge of high blood fat) for awhile. Sometimes I also get some indigestion, like I would have fairly routinely if I had a large fatty meal before going vegan. I have had 'indigestion' maybe 3X in the last 5 months, all after one of these super fatty meals.
At home, I am eating lots of veggies and whole grains, well seasoned sauces and a banana and some nuts and berries every day. Lots of legumes or soy or 'mock meat' products 1-2X a day. And plant based milks that are fortified with B-12 and calcium. I do not feel restricted.
As I was saying in March, I feel better than I have in 15 years (I am 55), physically and cognitively. I look younger, my skin is better, my gums are better, you name it. Feeling amazing is all the motivation I need to continue.
My BP has settled in the high normal to 'pre-high' range, bouncing around a bit with my stress/sleep/salt the day before.... so I am still trying to improve those largely non-diet things. It was stage II high last fall.
If you are a vegan skeptic... you would still probably say 'just give it time... in a few months you will feel like carp and look bad and weak, and you will have to give it up!' And indeed, a few weeks back I did start to feel like I was dragging a bit. Lots of little things physically and cognitively that I won't bore you with.
I have also been continuing my 'deep dive' on YouTube, and finding new sources and new perspectives. based on some of that, I decided to up my protein consumption, by adding a daily vegan protein powder 'shake' to my breakfast routine, replacing a banana that was similar in calories, but having 20 grams more quality protein. I am also watching/upping the 'protein' content of my recipes, whether it be mock meat or tofu or seitan, such that every meal/sauce has some protein.
And in a couple days I felt as good as I had in Jan-March.
--------------------------------
As for the 'food wars' on YouTube, I am in much the same place as my first post, but with more perspective.
I remain convinced that the 'standard american diet' or SAD is a big part of why our health is so much poorer than other countries, including our life expectancy, which is now falling. I also remain convinced that the 'merchants of doubt' that used to work for Big Tobacco and Big Oil are fully active today in propelling the 'food wars'. And in 2023, that means a lot of influencers that are social media-ready and racking up millions of subscribers, vastly dwarfing the few honest YouTubers that actually, um, read the peer reviewed papers and try to explain them. And ofc the click-bait media journalists are reporting a bunch of 'doubts' non-sense.
Who do I trust after 6 mos of deep dive?
Nutrition Made Simple: https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple
Plant Chompers: https://www.youtube.com/@PlantChompers
Nutrition Facts: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCddn8dUxYdgJz3Qr5mjADtA
All of these support the idea that a whole food vegan OR traditional Asian OR (true) Mediterranean diet are similarly healthy (close enough to be 'in the noise' science-wise). All of them will lead you to live 7-8 years longer (and add more healthy years than that) relative to a SAD diet. The latter two allow some meat, mostly fish, but sparingly.
Those diets work by reducing Heart Disease, Cancer, Strokes and Dementia. Animal fats and animal protein are unhealthy in large amounts.
Junk food vegan; nope
Raw food vegan: nope
80% carb vegan diet: nope
no-oil vegan diet: nope
Fake Mediterranean diet (pizza drizzled with olive oil): nope.
vegetarian diets with high saturated fat from cheese and eggs: nope
'moderate meat' diets that still involve eating meat 1+ times per day: nope
If you already HAVE heart disease, then going super low total fat and salt is probably a good idea, otherwise, keeping saturated fat below 7% of total calories and salt under 2-3g/day is probably 'good enough'.
Everyone should get their fiber over 30g/day, relative to the American average of 15g/day. The 'paleo' diet was probably about 100g per day, and many of our organs and microbiome seem to 'expect' that much fiber to work properly.
Those figures (<7% sat fat and >30g fiber) are part of the nutrition guidelines of most countries around the world, contrary to what influencers and fad diet shills would say.
PS: I have non-dairy Ben and Jerry's in my freezer. A 'serving' (1/8th pint) runs about 10 g of sat fat, and won't kill me once in a while!
I am still happily vegan since Jan 1, 2023, with little meat and dairy for a few months before that.
That said, I have some more junky meals than others. Restaurants are a challenge. There are many vegan restaurants that my GF and I have found in our area, and ofc they don't have nutrition labels. But I am sure that they lean heavily on the fat+salt+sugar formula that all humans react to. Just vegan fats, probably coconut and palm oils.
I have had a few meals like that where I felt 'hung over' the next day. I don't sweat it, but I assume it is a combination of high salt and lipidemia (a surge of high blood fat) for awhile. Sometimes I also get some indigestion, like I would have fairly routinely if I had a large fatty meal before going vegan. I have had 'indigestion' maybe 3X in the last 5 months, all after one of these super fatty meals.
At home, I am eating lots of veggies and whole grains, well seasoned sauces and a banana and some nuts and berries every day. Lots of legumes or soy or 'mock meat' products 1-2X a day. And plant based milks that are fortified with B-12 and calcium. I do not feel restricted.
As I was saying in March, I feel better than I have in 15 years (I am 55), physically and cognitively. I look younger, my skin is better, my gums are better, you name it. Feeling amazing is all the motivation I need to continue.
My BP has settled in the high normal to 'pre-high' range, bouncing around a bit with my stress/sleep/salt the day before.... so I am still trying to improve those largely non-diet things. It was stage II high last fall.
If you are a vegan skeptic... you would still probably say 'just give it time... in a few months you will feel like carp and look bad and weak, and you will have to give it up!' And indeed, a few weeks back I did start to feel like I was dragging a bit. Lots of little things physically and cognitively that I won't bore you with.
I have also been continuing my 'deep dive' on YouTube, and finding new sources and new perspectives. based on some of that, I decided to up my protein consumption, by adding a daily vegan protein powder 'shake' to my breakfast routine, replacing a banana that was similar in calories, but having 20 grams more quality protein. I am also watching/upping the 'protein' content of my recipes, whether it be mock meat or tofu or seitan, such that every meal/sauce has some protein.
And in a couple days I felt as good as I had in Jan-March.
--------------------------------
As for the 'food wars' on YouTube, I am in much the same place as my first post, but with more perspective.
I remain convinced that the 'standard american diet' or SAD is a big part of why our health is so much poorer than other countries, including our life expectancy, which is now falling. I also remain convinced that the 'merchants of doubt' that used to work for Big Tobacco and Big Oil are fully active today in propelling the 'food wars'. And in 2023, that means a lot of influencers that are social media-ready and racking up millions of subscribers, vastly dwarfing the few honest YouTubers that actually, um, read the peer reviewed papers and try to explain them. And ofc the click-bait media journalists are reporting a bunch of 'doubts' non-sense.
Who do I trust after 6 mos of deep dive?
Nutrition Made Simple: https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionMadeSimple
Plant Chompers: https://www.youtube.com/@PlantChompers
Nutrition Facts: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCddn8dUxYdgJz3Qr5mjADtA
All of these support the idea that a whole food vegan OR traditional Asian OR (true) Mediterranean diet are similarly healthy (close enough to be 'in the noise' science-wise). All of them will lead you to live 7-8 years longer (and add more healthy years than that) relative to a SAD diet. The latter two allow some meat, mostly fish, but sparingly.
Those diets work by reducing Heart Disease, Cancer, Strokes and Dementia. Animal fats and animal protein are unhealthy in large amounts.
Junk food vegan; nope
Raw food vegan: nope
80% carb vegan diet: nope
no-oil vegan diet: nope
Fake Mediterranean diet (pizza drizzled with olive oil): nope.
vegetarian diets with high saturated fat from cheese and eggs: nope
'moderate meat' diets that still involve eating meat 1+ times per day: nope
If you already HAVE heart disease, then going super low total fat and salt is probably a good idea, otherwise, keeping saturated fat below 7% of total calories and salt under 2-3g/day is probably 'good enough'.
Everyone should get their fiber over 30g/day, relative to the American average of 15g/day. The 'paleo' diet was probably about 100g per day, and many of our organs and microbiome seem to 'expect' that much fiber to work properly.
Those figures (<7% sat fat and >30g fiber) are part of the nutrition guidelines of most countries around the world, contrary to what influencers and fad diet shills would say.
PS: I have non-dairy Ben and Jerry's in my freezer. A 'serving' (1/8th pint) runs about 10 g of sat fat, and won't kill me once in a while!
Last edited:
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I was fairly joyful to find barley is a food grass. I don't handle corn very well.
Also joyful to find chick peas and lentils are legumes, and moderate glycemic index to boot.
Typical wok day I will have curried chick peas (flaming hot) over either rice or barley, so a complete protein there for first breakfast. Then a big portion of fermented veg, 2-3 servings as second breakfast. Then an enormous salad, 8-10 servings of raw veg for first lunch. I have stated bringing fussy little bottles of olive oil and vinegar from home for dressing. Second lunch brings some fat, either flaming hot homemade palak paneer (with firm queso from the hispanic aisle for the paneer) usually over rice, or curried lentils (with 14 oz of full fat coconut milk and 3T of peanut butter per 5 servings) (guess what, flaming hot) also over either rice or barley.
First afternoon snack is usually another smaller salad, 3-5 servings of raw veg with oil and vinegar, then the other of palak paneer or curried lentil for second afternoon snack. I am usually done eating on workdays around 1600 and lights out around 2100.
Judging by how my upper body looks in the mirror while I am shaving I am getting plenty of protein.
I am consistently coming in at 5-10 grams of added sugar daily. Probably one reason my fat cravings are so high. I am not tracking my sodium, except to be sure I don't go too low. 14k steps and 3 liters of water today, sweat stains on my scrubs.
I do want to try soup beans and cornbread as a menu item, but it will likely be a soup when I am done pouring Tobasco. I could maybe simmer the beans with some onion, ginger, garlic, turmeric, black pepper, jalapeno and habanero. That might work.
Between the queso in my palak paneer, and the sampling involved in dialing in my canned/smoked salmon recipe, I am very likely getting one serving of animal protein almost every day, but not every day.
One breakthrough for me was finding a slew of East Indian vegetarian dishes that center on onion, garlic, and ginger that does work for me, and the recipes as handed down can handle a LOT of capsaicin and still taste good. Once upon a time long ago osteoarthritis showed up on my front porch, rang the doorbell, and said "I am your new friend Arthur." I should have emptied a .45 Colt into that rascal, but in the moment I let him in the house.
Also joyful to find chick peas and lentils are legumes, and moderate glycemic index to boot.
Typical wok day I will have curried chick peas (flaming hot) over either rice or barley, so a complete protein there for first breakfast. Then a big portion of fermented veg, 2-3 servings as second breakfast. Then an enormous salad, 8-10 servings of raw veg for first lunch. I have stated bringing fussy little bottles of olive oil and vinegar from home for dressing. Second lunch brings some fat, either flaming hot homemade palak paneer (with firm queso from the hispanic aisle for the paneer) usually over rice, or curried lentils (with 14 oz of full fat coconut milk and 3T of peanut butter per 5 servings) (guess what, flaming hot) also over either rice or barley.
First afternoon snack is usually another smaller salad, 3-5 servings of raw veg with oil and vinegar, then the other of palak paneer or curried lentil for second afternoon snack. I am usually done eating on workdays around 1600 and lights out around 2100.
Judging by how my upper body looks in the mirror while I am shaving I am getting plenty of protein.
I am consistently coming in at 5-10 grams of added sugar daily. Probably one reason my fat cravings are so high. I am not tracking my sodium, except to be sure I don't go too low. 14k steps and 3 liters of water today, sweat stains on my scrubs.
I do want to try soup beans and cornbread as a menu item, but it will likely be a soup when I am done pouring Tobasco. I could maybe simmer the beans with some onion, ginger, garlic, turmeric, black pepper, jalapeno and habanero. That might work.
Between the queso in my palak paneer, and the sampling involved in dialing in my canned/smoked salmon recipe, I am very likely getting one serving of animal protein almost every day, but not every day.
One breakthrough for me was finding a slew of East Indian vegetarian dishes that center on onion, garlic, and ginger that does work for me, and the recipes as handed down can handle a LOT of capsaicin and still taste good. Once upon a time long ago osteoarthritis showed up on my front porch, rang the doorbell, and said "I am your new friend Arthur." I should have emptied a .45 Colt into that rascal, but in the moment I let him in the house.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
The Mediterranean diet is kinda tricky to nail down as a pre-globalization thing. I think of it, in general, as an overused term today, kinda like, you know, I can't even. Word. 'Sup dog?
The corn fed beef fatted calf seem to be a once in the Old Testament event, but I love my feed lot ribeye.
Fish, especially little fish, show up over and over as a diet item.
What I haven't got a firm handle on is sheep/lamb. You can't hardly open a bible without getting lamb's wool and sheep spit on your couch. Over and over again the best most perfect lamb gets taken to the temple in Jerusalem for a heavenly BBQ, but the imperfect ones, what happens to them? Wool clothes to wear in the desert? Sheep milk to make Roquefort on the NW coast of the Med? Lamb chops? I dunno.
No butter to speak of, plenty of olive oil, lots of veg, some lamb even if they are dying of old age, a few fish, red wine, and bread.
And what in tarnation did King David do with all those deer lolligaggin around every valley with a stream in it? You know he shot one of them and at least sampled it after cooking. Bringing some oregano and some rosemary and salt to a very lean deer like it was a fairly fatty sheep to BBQ should have put him in the ballpark of a really good meal.
I'm pretty confident Nutella is not part of a pre-globalization Med diet, but we will likely never have wide spread consensus on what the Med diet used to be, what the term "med diet" really means.
The corn fed beef fatted calf seem to be a once in the Old Testament event, but I love my feed lot ribeye.
Fish, especially little fish, show up over and over as a diet item.
What I haven't got a firm handle on is sheep/lamb. You can't hardly open a bible without getting lamb's wool and sheep spit on your couch. Over and over again the best most perfect lamb gets taken to the temple in Jerusalem for a heavenly BBQ, but the imperfect ones, what happens to them? Wool clothes to wear in the desert? Sheep milk to make Roquefort on the NW coast of the Med? Lamb chops? I dunno.
No butter to speak of, plenty of olive oil, lots of veg, some lamb even if they are dying of old age, a few fish, red wine, and bread.
And what in tarnation did King David do with all those deer lolligaggin around every valley with a stream in it? You know he shot one of them and at least sampled it after cooking. Bringing some oregano and some rosemary and salt to a very lean deer like it was a fairly fatty sheep to BBQ should have put him in the ballpark of a really good meal.
I'm pretty confident Nutella is not part of a pre-globalization Med diet, but we will likely never have wide spread consensus on what the Med diet used to be, what the term "med diet" really means.
Totally agree regarding the Med diet. These terms have been completely bastardized over the years. Like, drench something in olive oil and skip the cheesecake for desert... I'm eating Med! Have a double bacon cheeseburger and skip the fries... I'm eating Keto! Nope and Nope.
Just saw a fascinating video, which I can summarize. Basically, it says that if you make a food >25% fat calories and >0.3% sodium it will addict the normal human and they will keep coming back for more. And that the fraction of products in fast food and regular restaurants that meet those criteria has increased several fold since 1980. As well as in the processed food aisle in grocery stores (like crackers and things like doritos).
Also, that beef has been selectively bred for marbling for the last 20 years, and between that and feedlot practices, the fat content of beef cuts with the fat 'trimmed off' has gone high enough to now make 'lean beef' hyperpalatable. Chicken is also now a high fat food.
IOW, the 'lean' beef, skinless chicken, crackers, quarter pounder and doritos that you buy today are DIFFERENT than the same one you bought in 1980! They are over the fat (and often salt) threshold for addictive hyper-palatability! You say but my grandpa ate steaks 5X a week and lived to 80... he was eating a DIFFERENT food product than you are today.
And oddly... fewer people are cooking at home, and relying on fast food and prepackaged food when they are at home! Huh.
Other piece of the puzzle... sugar consumption in the US peaked in 2000, and has declined significantly since then. Yet our obesity and heart disease rates have marched continuously upwards since 2000, following the upward rise of fat (and salt).
The food companies used to use sugar to hook us on their wares, and have now switched to something better (and even less healthy)... fat and salt!
![[Hearth.com] Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.](/talk/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fmarginalrevolution.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F11%2FSugar-1.png&hash=63949675e3cae12dba7394493e287c71 "[Hearth.com] Veganism, Human Health and Conspiracies.")
Here is the video:
Just saw a fascinating video, which I can summarize. Basically, it says that if you make a food >25% fat calories and >0.3% sodium it will addict the normal human and they will keep coming back for more. And that the fraction of products in fast food and regular restaurants that meet those criteria has increased several fold since 1980. As well as in the processed food aisle in grocery stores (like crackers and things like doritos).
Also, that beef has been selectively bred for marbling for the last 20 years, and between that and feedlot practices, the fat content of beef cuts with the fat 'trimmed off' has gone high enough to now make 'lean beef' hyperpalatable. Chicken is also now a high fat food.
IOW, the 'lean' beef, skinless chicken, crackers, quarter pounder and doritos that you buy today are DIFFERENT than the same one you bought in 1980! They are over the fat (and often salt) threshold for addictive hyper-palatability! You say but my grandpa ate steaks 5X a week and lived to 80... he was eating a DIFFERENT food product than you are today.
And oddly... fewer people are cooking at home, and relying on fast food and prepackaged food when they are at home! Huh.
Other piece of the puzzle... sugar consumption in the US peaked in 2000, and has declined significantly since then. Yet our obesity and heart disease rates have marched continuously upwards since 2000, following the upward rise of fat (and salt).
The food companies used to use sugar to hook us on their wares, and have now switched to something better (and even less healthy)... fat and salt!
Here is the video:
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
The hours a week I spend cooking healthier is starting to take its toll. It’s so much easier to just boil 2# of pasta open a jar of sauce and nuke some store bought frozen meatballs than it is make a heathy vegan/vegetarian meal from scratch.
We have some good lentil meals that are quick, but vegan tofu/cauliflower taco meat takes a bit of time.
We have some good lentil meals that are quick, but vegan tofu/cauliflower taco meat takes a bit of time.
Right on brother. I just had a dinner last night and reheated lunch that looked just like that. Bought frozen vegan meatballs (I like gardein and impossible brands) and a jar of sauce.
My tweaks:
- vegan meatballs (high in plant protein, but also high in sat fat and sodium, ok in moderation IMO).
- a huge amount of steamed broccoli on the side (whole plant, soluble fiber and phytonutrients).
- Barilla 'protein+' pasta to boost plant protein and fiber (less than whole wheat pasta, but better than white pasta).
- I shopped for the jar sauce that had the lowest sodium (first) and sugar (second). Ended up with Rao's tomato and basil.
- I added the zest of one lemon for flavor to the sauce... a very yummy trick.
Its not a very healthy meal, but its quick, satisfying and healthier than it would be without the tweaks. Eating the broccolli esp helps with portion control. Without the broccoli I might've gulped 8 meatballs instead of 4-5, and nearly doubled the saturated fat and missed a lot of fiber.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I pretty much cook twice for myself per week, and scale my recipes so I can use one whole onion. My wife is allergic to onion, I have one child at home who is lactose intolerant, and neither of them can handle my capsaicin levels.
Working 3 twelve hour shifts is a double edged sword for sure, but my first day off is all chores. Sleep in, laundry, ironing, take the trash to the dump, make food for the next few days, that sort of thing. My last day off is typically half a day free and half day cooking for the next three work days.
If I was working 5 eight hour shifts, or 4 tens, this would be harder to do. Day three leftovers are visibly past peak. Trying to cook on Sunday to have food for M-F would be hard graft. Kudos to all y'all slugging that one out.
One thing about curried chickpeas and curried lentil is the serving suggestion often includes putting the product in a serving bowl (or a tupperware), sprinkle on maybe half a cup of coarsely chopped cilantro, and then cover (not drizzle, cover) with olive oil. This step does create a barrier between the food and atmospheric oxygen, helps reduce fat cravings by bringing more olive oil, and extends shelf life by a little bit.
Working 3 twelve hour shifts is a double edged sword for sure, but my first day off is all chores. Sleep in, laundry, ironing, take the trash to the dump, make food for the next few days, that sort of thing. My last day off is typically half a day free and half day cooking for the next three work days.
If I was working 5 eight hour shifts, or 4 tens, this would be harder to do. Day three leftovers are visibly past peak. Trying to cook on Sunday to have food for M-F would be hard graft. Kudos to all y'all slugging that one out.
One thing about curried chickpeas and curried lentil is the serving suggestion often includes putting the product in a serving bowl (or a tupperware), sprinkle on maybe half a cup of coarsely chopped cilantro, and then cover (not drizzle, cover) with olive oil. This step does create a barrier between the food and atmospheric oxygen, helps reduce fat cravings by bringing more olive oil, and extends shelf life by a little bit.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
There is definitely truth here. But do you really need vegan tofu/cauliflower "meat" in your diet? IIRC you have some kids at home, which certainly makes your situation more complex by an order of magnitude.
If you can combine a dietary grass - rice, corn, barley, wheat with a dietary legume, all the beans, chickpea, lentil, you are consuming (as far as I know) a nutritionally complete protein with all the essential amino acids in it. The number of amino acids that are "essential" has changed, gotten lower, since I last took nutrition as a college class in the early 1990s, but as far as I know a grass and a legume together are "all you need" for protein intake.
Kids are a hard sell, and they are inundated with advertising about meat products, and they got the peer pressure thing going on in spades. I feel your pain, at least a little bit.
One thing you might try is to internet search, together with your kids, on the term "vegan athlete" and then click the 'images' button and maybe watch some videos together. I am not personally interested in dating a vegan woman who can bench press a Volkswagen, but my experience with kids is the best you can do is plant good idea seeds and hope.
I am struggling with quinoa. I know it is good for me. It is a versatile seed to have in my diet. Then problem for me is the little rascals often get stuck in between my teeth, and I get interrupted by patient needs when I am working. So on a day off I could have a dish of quinoa and floss once, but on work days I might need to floss infinity times trying to get through a bowl of quinoa with tasty stuff on it.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I saw the video @woodgeek . I was somewhat disappointed with roughly the first half, but the presenter brought it home in the second half leaving me at over all thumbs up.
The primary positive ions in our bodies are NA+ and K+, the primary negative ion is Cl-. How much we need, daily, ultimately comes down to how much we each sweat.
Someone who lays in bed all night, rides a motor vehicle to work, sits in front of a desk all day, rides home not on a bicycle, watches TV and goes to bed again can plug in sedentary lifestyle on any number of online dietary tools and easily find out how many calories, how much potassium, and how much sodium they 'need' daily to maintain their body weight. These folks are at very high risk of getting too much sodium (and fat) with processed food common in the SAD - Standard American Diet.
The ones I see most often are alcoholics admitted for whatever, who have been getting the majority of their calories from alcohol (7 calories per gram with zero nutritional value) with frankly deranged electrolytes. I just love love love trying to get 60 or 80 mEq of K and 2 grams of Mg and some phosphorous and even some sodium through even two IV sites in one 12 hour shift. And some Calcium IV. They will get another banana bag of generalized electrolytes tonight, another lab draw tomorrow at 0500, and I will get to dance the electrolyte bugaloo again tomorrow.
For someone who works out 5-6 days per week working up a serious lather of sweat, the water soluble electrolytes don't concern me. Have a lot, drink plenty of water, pee out the excess, move on.
But for the folks who aren't doing physical labor day after day, yes, I agree fat and salt is an addictive combination (think bacon or potato chips) and that sort of food will catch up with you fast if you aren't working it off and sweating it out. And that is a crap ton of fat.
I love bacon. I could live on bacon, avocado and beer. But my life would be nasty, brutish and short. Pick your poison.
The primary positive ions in our bodies are NA+ and K+, the primary negative ion is Cl-. How much we need, daily, ultimately comes down to how much we each sweat.
Someone who lays in bed all night, rides a motor vehicle to work, sits in front of a desk all day, rides home not on a bicycle, watches TV and goes to bed again can plug in sedentary lifestyle on any number of online dietary tools and easily find out how many calories, how much potassium, and how much sodium they 'need' daily to maintain their body weight. These folks are at very high risk of getting too much sodium (and fat) with processed food common in the SAD - Standard American Diet.
The ones I see most often are alcoholics admitted for whatever, who have been getting the majority of their calories from alcohol (7 calories per gram with zero nutritional value) with frankly deranged electrolytes. I just love love love trying to get 60 or 80 mEq of K and 2 grams of Mg and some phosphorous and even some sodium through even two IV sites in one 12 hour shift. And some Calcium IV. They will get another banana bag of generalized electrolytes tonight, another lab draw tomorrow at 0500, and I will get to dance the electrolyte bugaloo again tomorrow.
For someone who works out 5-6 days per week working up a serious lather of sweat, the water soluble electrolytes don't concern me. Have a lot, drink plenty of water, pee out the excess, move on.
But for the folks who aren't doing physical labor day after day, yes, I agree fat and salt is an addictive combination (think bacon or potato chips) and that sort of food will catch up with you fast if you aren't working it off and sweating it out. And that is a crap ton of fat.
I love bacon. I could live on bacon, avocado and beer. But my life would be nasty, brutish and short. Pick your poison.
We have been on this diet for decades. My wife is part Sicilian, so it comes naturally to her. Some research into the Mediterranean diet has shown some interesting results.
www.sciencealert.com
Experiment Reveals How The Mediterranean Diet Works at The Cellular Level
The Mediterranean diet has become famous far beyond its namesake sea, as research increasingly supports its longstanding reputation for boosting health and longevity.
www.sciencealert.com
We have been on this diet for decades. My wife is part Sicilian, so it comes naturally to her. Some research into the Mediterranean diet has shown some interesting results.
Experiment Reveals How The Mediterranean Diet Works at The Cellular Level
The Mediterranean diet has become famous far beyond its namesake sea, as research increasingly supports its longstanding reputation for boosting health and longevity.
An intriguing study, if one on worms.
The Med diet has stood the test of time (like 50 years) as a very healthy diet for humans, in the sense of having low CVD risk and excellent longevity.
As defined however, it allows fractions of refined grains, red meats and diary fats that are TINY compared to the American diet.
It allows eggs, which do have cholesterol but are fairly low in saturated fats. In the context fo high fiber consumption (from the whole grains and veggies) cholesterol absorption would be limited (compared to an American diet). I'd expect that the number of americans actually following the guidelines above to be 1% or less (similar to WFPB). Whereas many people 'think' they are eating Med.
Studies appear to show that a WFPB diet is slightly better than this Med diet for CVD and longevity and weight control, but not enough to get cranked about.
Doctors and nutritionists push the Med diet on people (rather than the slightly better WFPB diet) bc they have decided that it will have higher acceptance and be more sustainable over time. This assertion lacks evidence.
In reality, it is possible to eat unhealthily on either a vegan or Med diet, due to slippery slopes over-consuming saturated fat, refined grains and sugar. I.e. the junk food vegan or the Med dieter that eats red meat and butter 5X a week.
So I think its really about 'slippery slopes', at least for me. The 'Med diet' is a vague enough description I think it is a more slippery slope than WFPB is.
My current diet is basically the bottom 4 rows of the pyramid, and the only screwup/slippery slope to watch is to limit refined grain products and sugars (upper right triangle), same as on Med. If I went Med, I would have to also carefully watch slippery slopes on red meat, dairy fat and eggs. Much more difficult in my opinion. By not going Med, I do have to worry a little more about protein, but I just take a pea protein powder daily and eat (low sat fat) mock meats 0-2 servings per day. Easy.
OK, I guess you could say my diet is the whole pyramid (incl vit and alcohol), but putting mock meats subbed in for fish poultry and eggs, and plant milks in for calcium supplements and dairy. No beef or butter at all, and sparing on the refined grains and sugars.
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whatyousmokin
Member
Way off topic, but how long can an alcoholic live when they are in this condition? My brother (63 years old) is at end stage of cirrhosis; he has been hospitalized a few times and had IV albumin, Na etc. He has ascites which gets drained of 5L weekly. He weighed 180 pounds at the beginning of this year, now down to 142. His doctors that I have talked with don't seem overly concerned about how bad of shape he is in and none have mentioned hospice. He is not a candidate for liver transplant; stage 4 prostate cancer that has metastasized to bones, on pretty heavy pain meds, finally quit drinking 2 months ago and now eating more. He seems to be bouncing back a bit, but realistically I know he doesn't have "much time" left. But 2 months, 6 months, a year?
whatyousmokin
Member
At this point I have more faith and confidence in online folks than I do in his doctors. He has a family doctor, urologist, oncologist, and gastroenterologist. The cirrhosis was first diagnosed in a CT scan over 3 years ago when that first CT report said "metastasized bladder cancer" (only later was determined as advanced prostate cancer following a biopsy). Three years later, they are just now talking to him about his alcohol consumption. Maybe they all figured he would have been dead from the cancer before the cirrhosis became such a health crisis. And what doctor orders a colonoscopy looking for and treating polyps in a very weak patient that already has stage 4 prostate cancer and end stage cirrhosis?
I'm sorry to hear that.
But mistakes by doctors does not mean that people who don't have the data or see the patient can provide a prognosis online any better.
You do have my sympathy.
But mistakes by doctors does not mean that people who don't have the data or see the patient can provide a prognosis online any better.
You do have my sympathy.
I'm so sorry about your brother @whatyousmokin. Given the rapid weight loss, it doesn't sound like a long time.
Not a good one to be sure.And what doctor orders a colonoscopy looking for and treating polyps in a very weak patient that already has stage 4 prostate cancer and end stage cirrhosis?
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
So bone mets is a huge problem, and "end stage" disease of any vital organ, brain, heart, lung, liver or kidney is another huge problem. But I could die first, and this is usually where I start any time I have personally assessed any single individual with charted problems like these. Among the people in 'this room,' we are all going to die someday of something, but if I don't look both ways heading to my truck in the parking lot tonight I could be the first of us in 'the room right now' to meet my Maker.
The cards are stacked against this individual. From the information I have, his time is relatively short. But I have never laid eyes on him. I have never felt the pulses in his feet, ankles, knees or wrists. I dunno how much pain med he is taking. I haven't listened to his lungs myself. I haven't personally seen 5L of fluid coming out of the abdomen every week. I don't know if he has the strength or stamina to keep going to chemo or radiation therapy.
On the one hand the higher power I believe in works miracles every day, but only on my floor in my sight it is every few years. On the other hand your brother doesn't have a lot of cards to play and none of them that I know of are aces or jokers. King Jesus has never appeared to me in person to say "I am coming for Mrs. Jones tonight at 0237 AM" anymore than he has ever said "Mrs Smith is going to be fine, just get her the antibiotics to get over this pneumonia so she can finish her life's work."
2-6-12 months remaining is probably as good a guess as anyone with infinite knowledge can offer. It really comes down to his mental state. If he is fighting hard and making all his chemo/radiation appointments a repeat colonoscopy (best case) might be appropriate. Chasing prostate CA with known mets is kinda a whack-a-mole project.
My advice to any patient or family member in this situation is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. That time your brother ate an entire baking pan of brownies and blamed it on you? In 1974? Forgive him for that. Y'alls mom got over that years ago. Put that in the past, tell him you love him anyway, tell him why you love him anyway (remember that night you snuck out your bedroom window to snuggle with Christie McGuire and he covered for you?) and move on.
Good luck and best wishes.
whatyousmokin
Member
Thanks all. My youngest brother will not be the first of my immediate family members to pass; I've lost both parents and one older brother and one younger brother. All have died from disease processes brought on by unhealthy lifestyle choices. I've been the "black sheep" of the family for the past 25 years in choosing a lifestyle comprised of healthier food choices, regular exercise, rejecting alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, even left a good paying career in the chemical industry to avoid daily exposure to hazardous chemicals . But as Poindexter mentioned above, and as I have told myself for the past 25 years, I could die today by getting hit by a Mack truck and be "disease-free". Unless it's suicide, assisted or otherwise, for the most part, we don't get a choice in how we exit. In the meantime, it's still painful to see a family member suffer the consequences of their lifestyle choices. Do have to remind myself though, that freedom of choice is one freedom that should always be every adult's individual right. Unfortunately, children of alcoholics/smokers have really bad habits ingrained....tough to break that cycle.
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Poindexter
Minister of Fire
pay close attention to everything that contains gluten, milk and dairy products are both the basis of many diseases. Science is not about solving problems, but to distribute pills. This is my testimony after meeting, virtually, an Italian doctor who has deepened the dietary philosophy of P.D'adamo. The first two harmful groups are those indicated above, pasta should be replaced with rice, legumes, and possibly which meats, fish and vegetables are best for your blood type. This is not recognized by science, but as the Italian doctor says, one must become so good at understanding if some food is harmful for each of us, listening to your belly and assessing your overall health. Regarding gluten, some people are very very sensitive and understand immediately, the problem arises for all the rest who seem to have no problems, but slowly it will bring some evils.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I made a point to speak with the freshest RD (Registered Dietician) at my home hospital in the last couple weeks. My youngest daughter is 29, this one, the RD, is probably 21 or 22. She clearly spends a lot of time in the gym, her eyeballs probably glow in the dark, that sort of thing. Besides her fresh RD license she has a follow on certification in obesity management.
My specific question was "What sort of proportions should someone seek when mixing a grass and a legume to make a complete dietary protein?" She literally rolled her eyes at me. She let me know 'some people' do try to mix peanut butter with whole wheat bread to get to a complete protein, and they should be mixed in approximately equal parts (we didn't discuss weight versus volume), but really it is perfectly fine to have peperoni pizza with a salad to get both a complete protein and some vegetables. The song 'Low Budget' by the Kinks started playing in my brain during this interaction, and I may have missed some nuance in the moment while I was transported back to 1979.
Evidently rice and beans isn't a thing anymore. I was just speechless, and as of that moment I am fine with the USDA continuing to promote USA agriculture, but I personally think nutritional guidance should be handed over to NIH yesterday. I cannot think of a good reason to consider any amount of peperoni "nutritionally fine." My take is she (the new RD) is a product of her education and is very likely to adjust her point of view with years and decades of clinical experience. I am talking about a bright young lady with good observational skills.
At the end of the day, my dietary advice is this: When you see TV adds for a particular food, don't eat it. The more often you see advertisements for a food item, the less often you should eat it; with sugary soda-pop (aka Satan's Spit) at the top of the list. Things you never see adverts for, like broccoli and quinoa, eat lots of that. Big food wants your money so they can make a profit. They don't care a hill of beans about what your health is going to be 20 years from now, they want to make a profit this quarter.
I do also have a placeholder with my local vegan cardiologist. In the moment neither of us had time for my three questions, but his vegan zealotry is on par with the Apostle Paul. My three questions for him are 1. How often do you have to put coronary artery stents in non-smoking strict vegans? 2. How many servings of salmon and sardines can I have to keep my arthritic joints lubricated and stay in the low risk group? 3. Will my fat cravings ever settle down as a pescatarian?
My specific question was "What sort of proportions should someone seek when mixing a grass and a legume to make a complete dietary protein?" She literally rolled her eyes at me. She let me know 'some people' do try to mix peanut butter with whole wheat bread to get to a complete protein, and they should be mixed in approximately equal parts (we didn't discuss weight versus volume), but really it is perfectly fine to have peperoni pizza with a salad to get both a complete protein and some vegetables. The song 'Low Budget' by the Kinks started playing in my brain during this interaction, and I may have missed some nuance in the moment while I was transported back to 1979.
Evidently rice and beans isn't a thing anymore. I was just speechless, and as of that moment I am fine with the USDA continuing to promote USA agriculture, but I personally think nutritional guidance should be handed over to NIH yesterday. I cannot think of a good reason to consider any amount of peperoni "nutritionally fine." My take is she (the new RD) is a product of her education and is very likely to adjust her point of view with years and decades of clinical experience. I am talking about a bright young lady with good observational skills.
At the end of the day, my dietary advice is this: When you see TV adds for a particular food, don't eat it. The more often you see advertisements for a food item, the less often you should eat it; with sugary soda-pop (aka Satan's Spit) at the top of the list. Things you never see adverts for, like broccoli and quinoa, eat lots of that. Big food wants your money so they can make a profit. They don't care a hill of beans about what your health is going to be 20 years from now, they want to make a profit this quarter.
I do also have a placeholder with my local vegan cardiologist. In the moment neither of us had time for my three questions, but his vegan zealotry is on par with the Apostle Paul. My three questions for him are 1. How often do you have to put coronary artery stents in non-smoking strict vegans? 2. How many servings of salmon and sardines can I have to keep my arthritic joints lubricated and stay in the low risk group? 3. Will my fat cravings ever settle down as a pescatarian?
