Trying to be realistic - about the prices of masonry heaters, etc.

[KeithO]

Well, I'm going to be stuck in Michigan for a while still. We're working on 2010 (on road) diesel emissions right now and a good bit of that work will carry over to the entire off road diesel market (agriculture, garden tractors, earthmoving, gen sets etc etc) in 2012 and beyond. My plan is to buy some land in Colorado before it is all gone so that I have somewhere higher, drier and sunnier to look forward to in a few years.

I figure we should be able to build our energy efficient house out there virtually mortgage free in 5 years or so (I didn't commit to exactly how many years the building process would take...) And it WILL have a masonry heater and a suitable floor plan and an indoor greenhouse etc etc. I'm presuming I won't be in the automotive sector anymore, so looking at other forms of "gainful employment" to substitute. I already have a basic metalworking shop together (mill, lathe and surface grinder), but its not my intention to get into metal work of the production kind, rather for doing prototypes of various inventions and for building machines to do other work.

Elk, just so you know, my speciality is the characterization of the ceramic mats that hold the substrates in place in automotive catalytic converters. We have built specialized lab equipment to measure how these materials age when subjected to repeated thermal cycling to temperatures of up to 1000ºC. So when it comes to choice of materials for gasketing in masonry heaters, I have some experience that you will look hard to find elsewhere. I have also developed predictive tools for the behavior of the ceramic mats and also for modeling of heat flow based on dimensions, material types, radiant and convective heat transfer to ambient air. Our company just won one of 12 PACE awards for 2007 as presented by Automotive News in their annual ceremony in Detroit, for our predictive process for the 2007 Diesel emissions systems where we cleaned up and captured 100% of the diesel pickup market (GM Duramax, Ford Powerstroke, Dodge Cummins - we make the emissions systems for all those trucks from 2007) We added roughly $1bn to top line revenue from this year onward through new business. I guess that right now we are one of the few companies in Michigan that is actually doing well.

You are to be commended for your donor program. I haven't heard of anything similar on our area. As you can see, I'm still trying to find my feet legally in this construction industry and figure out what I can and can't do. Your advice is always appreciated.

Keith

 

[Gooserider]

Hmmm Keith - to hijack the thread a bit and pick your brains on your expertise area - I am wondering if you know of any sort of ultra high temperature adhesives that could be used to repair / rebuild / restore the refractory package material in a VC cat stove?

I have an elderly VC Encore 0028 that I'm attempting to rebuild, with the most questionable part being the refractory package which appears to be mostly present, but has broken in several places. I'm not sure just what the material is, but it's a grey fibrous material that is very soft, and looks sort of like the grey cardboard stuff that some ceiling tiles and wallboards are made out of. It wants to break if you look at it harshly...

Do you know of any sort of adhesive or other material that could be used to patch this material back together?

It would need to be something that could withstand the temperatures in the cat combustion chamber.

It would need to be available in a reasonable sized package (a few ounces?) to civilian type folks (as opposed to those in the industry)

It would have to be something that could be used in a home shop environment (i.e. no special tools, bake ovens, or the like)

It would need to be safe enough to be used by a person without tons of safety gear, and be safe to use inside a stove - pass the "Elk test"

Gooserider

 

[KeithO]

Do you have any pictures of the stuff and where it goes ? Is it used for gasketing or for actually stopping heat transmission to the outside ? Is it exposed directly to combustion gasses or not ?

There are lot of vermiculite based materials used, particularly for the catalytic element, but there are much better materials available today. Its all a matter of how long it has to last.

Post some pictures and I can try to figure out what it is.

 

[KeithO]

This stuff is fairly specialized, but here you can get an overview of some of the products http://www.unifrax.com/prodinfo.nsf/LookupByFormNo/C-1427/$File/Form%20C-1427%20Specialties%209-05.pdf

I know the Unifrax guys personally and they are about the only company with info online and prices for a lot of the materials right on the internet.

You might have a vermiculite refractory, which is quite cheap and can be ordered online at various places. If you need fiber blankets and such, I would first try Unifrax, since they will more than likely be the most reasonable. And since they are in Niagra Falls, NY, they are also not too far away. About 90% of the high end materials come out of japan.

Keith

 

[KeithO]

http://www.unifrax.com/prodinfo.nsf/LookupByFormNo/C-3087-3/$File/Form%20C-3087-3XPEAV2,2-04.pdf
This is the stuff commonly used to hold the catalytic combustor at medium temperatures. It is pretty cheap, would only be a few $ for the size needed for your combuster.

 

[KeithO]

http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/index.htm

You might want to look at the castable refractory at the above website if that is what you need. The store caters to people doing casting at home or small business and sell relatively small quantities (as these things go) at reasonable prices.

Keith

 

[Gooserider]

Do you have any pictures of the stuff and where it goes ? Is it used for gasketing or for actually stopping heat transmission to the outside ? Is it exposed directly to combustion gasses or not ?

There are lot of vermiculite based materials used, particularly for the catalytic element, but there are much better materials available today. Its all a matter of how long it has to last.

Post some pictures and I can try to figure out what it is.

The stuff is cast into a sort of tower that goes between the fireback inside the stove and the back of the stove outside. It holds the cat and is the part that actually contains the secondary combustion, thus it has to contain the heat of that reaction, and keep it from radiating out the back side of the stove, instead the heat is used to sustain the cat reaction and is radiated out the front into the firebox where it serves to pre-heat the combustion gasses and gets out into the room.

I have a bunch of pictures here - Encore Rebuild They show pretty much everything as I've taken it apart, and I think some of them should show enough detail on the refractory assembly to let you get a feel for the material and the damage to it.

There are two basic issues in terms of lasting - one is to get it to stay together long enough to get the stove together, the second is that a lot of the damage is around where the cat itself goes, which means that it has to be able to handle having the cat taken out for maintenance a couple times a year - presumably for a very long time. It also has to maintain enough physical integrity to keep the various chambers in the stove that it is part of separate so the gasses go where they are supposed to.

I will check out the links you've mentioned so far as well.

Thanks for the help,

Gooserider

 

[KeithO]

Mr GR

I sent you a PM. Look up my number there and give me a call.
Keith

 

[daleeper]

So KeithO

To get this back on topic, does the MHA portfolio give enough information to actually build the tile masonry heater that you referred to in the op? What other information is in there? I have been considering purchase of this information, but didn't know whether it was going to contain enough information to justify the dollars spent. I have already contacted Albie directly on that particular heater, and was disappointed in the information I got back.

 

[KeithO]

daleeper:

This is what the listing at MHA has to say: http://mha-net.org/html/bookstore.htm It is the first advertisement on the page. The set costs $75 for non members. I can't install any of these in my home due to the unsuitable home layout and the fact that I can't put a support under the floor to support the weight without a completely unreasonable cost. That is why I have not yet bought the set of plans.

The portfolio includes five sets of detailed plans for the:
Finnish Contraflow (Small room heater 24" x 36")
Kakelugn (Swedish Heater)
Blacksburg Grundofen (Modified)
Medium Size Corner Finnish Heater
Soapstone Heater
(Materials list for each)

Detail Option Drawings including:
Damper Options
Clean Out Options
Outside Air Options
Options to Finish the Top (above capping slab)

Six line drawings
Vertical Channel Masonry Heater (Russian)
Horizontal Channel Masonry Heater (Russian)
Combination Channel Masonry Heater (German)
Contraflow Masonry Heater (Finnish)
Five Channel Masonry Heater (Swedish)

One Generic Heater Building Sequence Step-By-Step
Copy ATR Engineering Masonry Heater Stabilization Report
Copy of Swedish Emissions Report
MHA Homeowner's Safety Manual & Burning Guide

 

[begreen]

Keith. Thanks for your contributions on this subject. Good info.

 

[Martin Strand III]

From one who has a masonry heater, I'd like to add the following:

Yes, they are "expensive". But this is relative to what else you have (or don't) vs what you need. Bottom line : a MH is not for everyone.

Next, comparing firebox size and burning in a MH to the same in a metal stove is not "apples to apples". In short, thermal mass heating is not comparable to metal stove heating. Different burn dynamics, different stove engineering and different heat generated. Assuming otherwise is like saying a combustion engine compares to human cellular metabolism because they both use oxygen and create heat. This is pure nonsense. So is trying to build one yourself unless you're uniquely talented or qualified (I'm neither).

Then in talking about money and payback: anyone with a masonry heater is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn’t need much tending so it’s a nice thing to have now. But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it’s not only an investment, it’s also a hedge against risk. A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called "insurance". And if one takes a look at it that way, then these look even better as ‘investments’.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."

 

[wg_bent]

Well, I'm partially to blame for this thread since I was the one who suggested a masonry heater. I believe the person was asking about putting in a fireplace at one point in his thinking, so if someone is willing to put in a Rumford or similar, a masonry heater is a minimal increase in cost, and a whole lot of benefit in heat output. I also didn't realize at the time the cabin was only 320 sqft. ON the other hand, a Tulikivi comes in many sizes and costs. their low end model seen here: (broken link removed)

weighs about 2000 lbs. I recall pricing a year or so ago for these being in the 5K range with installation being extra. Typical estimates were roughly double the unit cost.

For a 320 sqft cabin... probably not worth it. A poor mans masonry heater (Better known as a Hearthstone Mansfield) would be much better, not to mention serious overkill for 320 sqft when a VC Intrepid would be more than adequate.

I think Craig's got the right perspective. A Masonry heater is not only something practical, it's something you want and looks nice just like a Mercedes or a Rolex. A Chevy and a Timex do the same basic job, the Mercedes just does it with more refinement.
Marty, as one of the few owners of a masonry heater has a unique perspective here. (Realize he also owns a wood stove) I've PMed him a bit and he has nothing but good things to say, and considers his heater part of the house cost. Given that houses cost 300k to build these days around these parts, a 15k masonry heater is no more expensive that a really nice set of window blinds or a little nicer moulding in a home. How about Hardwood floors? They make a masonry heater look like a joke if you have a 2500 sqft house. It's all what you want.

If building a new home again, a Masonry heater would very likely be in the plan, but it would have to be a final home.

 

[Burn-1]

Marty,

You can send me a royalty check for that material anytime you wish to use it.

 

[Martin Strand III]

Burning One:

There actually are quotations marks in that paragraph. I must have put them in the wrong places...

If you don't like that, try this: When I regurgitate assimilated material, sometimes it's messy. But thank you for a slant on 'value' I hadn't come across before.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "If you want to get'em off your back, tell'em 'Check's in the mail' ".

 

[KeithO]

Marty: I would agree that to design and build a masonry heater from a blank sheet of paper would take a lot of knowledge, skill and experience. However, if one follows directions (assuming a ranch style home with a concrete floor and class A metal chimney) this is a manageable task. If one looks at the pictures from the MHA annual workshops, the degree of complexity can readily be evaluated. Particularly if one is able to do a "dry run", which is mostly what is done at the MHA workshops, it helps immensely. I will more than likely take a community college brick laying course to prepare for building my unit. One must simply resist every temptation to "tweak" the design, other than on masonry facing details.

 

[Burn-1]

Marty,

No harm done. As an appraiser I often have to try to find the hidden values in many of our economic choices.

KeithO

I threw this one out several months ago but it is a good resource and for an old ag econ hand like myself, I think it's a great offering from their extension service. (broken link removed to http://www.dnr.mo.gov/pubs/pub781.pdf)

 

[Burn-1]

Well for an out of the box solution, practically a masonry heater on its own you could also grab a Hearthstone Equinox (Big hat tip to Tom for featuring it on his very informative site when Hearthstone doesn't even have it up on theirs yet. )

690 lbs 100,000 BTU 4 cu ft firebox able to take 26 inch wood. Just waiting to chomp into a woodpile!. That's about 30 fills per cord. Two firings a day would add up fast.

After MSG talked about this last year I have been dying to see what it was going to look like. It's only a $400 premium above the Mansfield.


Hearthstone must be getting some European style tips from its Spanish owners because I noticed they have a Rais style rotating stove out on their site too called the Bari

 

[BrotherBart]

Well for an out of the box solution, practically a masonry heater on its own you could also grab a Hearthstone Equinox (Big hat tip to Tom for featuring it on his very informative site when Hearthstone doesn't even have it up on theirs yet. )

690 lbs 100,000 BTU 4 cu ft firebox able to take 26 inch wood. Just waiting to chomp into a woodpile!. That's about 30 fills per cord. Two firings a day would add up fast.

Oh how I would love to build a house with that puppy right in the middle of it. WHOOHYA. Too bad my new house days are over. And the concrete pillar under it in the basement would take up major space.

 

[KeithO]

Add a few more layers of 60mm thick soapstone to the inside walls to reduce the size of the firebox and increase the thermal mass. That will reduce the qty of wood burnt and extend heat betwen firing. A proper masonry heater would have at least 3 times more thermal mass going up to 5-6x. Otherwise the temperature swings will be too great and fuel consumption too high.

 

[Burn-1]

Add a few more layers of 60mm thick soapstone to the inside walls to reduce the size of the firebox and increase the thermal mass. That will reduce the qty of wood burnt and extend heat betwen firing. A proper masonry heater would have at least 3 times more thermal mass going up to 5-6x. Otherwise the temperature swings will be too great and fuel consumption too high.

Obviously the Equinox is designed and engineered to be a stove and not a masonry heater, and at 690 lbs the stove installers will certainly be earning their keep on this one.

It probably has all the thermal mass it needs for its intended use. There are some other stoves like this though. Fred Seton's (broken link removed) made from cast refractory panels, and of which the smallest model weighs 800 lbs and the largest 1,200 lbs with a 6.4 cu ft firebox, (basically a self-contained bonfire), no style points though; and the (broken link removed to http://www.constructionresources.com/products/pdfs/services/Topolino.pdf) stove which really is more like a masonry heater with 83% overall efficiency and much more heater-like mass to firebox ratios. It has modular construction and can be taken down and moved unlike a built-in-place heater, but it's not sold in the US and pretty pricey at 5,000 Euros plus.

As a Phoenix owner I will note that the swings on it are certainly not as noticeable as they are with my steel stove. Given that the Phoenix takes about 45 minutes to give off heat and about an hour for good heat I would hate to come home to a cold house and wait for this beast to get to temp. There is definitely a reason why soapstone stoves should be for 24/7 burners.

I'm waiting to see if the Equinox is going to start some new arms race for the biggest stove?

 

[Martin Strand III]

O Keeith:

While you're building your own MH, you might want to review the definition of a MH (below) so your project doesn't end up being a one-off smoke producing masonry monolith that you won't be able to get out of your collapsing house when it's ablaze.

Are you sure your creative instincts wouldn't be placated by assembling a factory pre-fab refractory core unit (all the R&D;would have been done saving you, perhaps, years) and then adding the masonry facade of your choice?

But, heck, if the Finns, Germans, Russians, Danes and our beer guzzling northern neighbors can do it, maybe you can too.
_________________________________
MHA Masonry Heater Definition

"A masonry heater is a site-built or site-assembled, solid-fueled heating device constructed mainly of masonry materials in which the heat from intermittent fires burned rapidly in its firebox is stored in its massive structure for slow release to the building. It has an interior construction consisting of a firebox and heat exchange channels built from refractory components.

Specifically, a masonry heater has the following characteristics:
- a mass of at least 800 kg. (1760 lbs.),
- tight fitting doors that are closed during the burn cycle,
- an overall average wall thickness not exceeding 250 mm (10 in.),
- under normal operating conditions, the external surface of the masonry heater, except immediately surrounding the fuel loading door(s), does not exceed 110 C. (230 F.),
- the gas path through the internal heat exchange channels downstream of the firebox includes at least one 180 degree change in flow direction, usually downward, before entering the chimney,
- the length of the shortest single path from the firebox exit to the chimney entrance is at least twice the largest firebox dimension"

(passed unanimously at 1998 MHA Annual Meeting, June 8, 1998)
___________________________________

Burning One: please notice the quotation marks giving credit where credit is due...

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say. "Play with fire and you'll get burned."

 

[KeithO]

Marty, I thought that what you are advocating is what I have been suggesting all along ? If one uses the AlbieCore ($1600) that takes care of the pre-fabricated core. The note I posted earlier regarding the masonry heater "kit" was in the $4k region, but doesn't include the facing bricks. It does include the fire door, cleanouts, gasketing material, high temp mortar etc etc. I'm guessing that the facing is a relatively minor part of the whole unless one is using a specialized material like granite or soapstone. I have actually found a source for soapstone slabs 300x700mmx60mm thick (more than 2") for $63 each + freight. This is about 3x the cost of marble or granite tile which are only 1/4" thick. Pretty cheap then..

I am considering getting into the business of actually manufacturing soapstone heaters, since the cost today seems way out of whack in relation to the material costs. They are also fitted together with splines and pins as opposed to mortared joints, so assembly is not quite the same kind of work as a conventional masonry heater. Once one adds services like custom 3D carving into the picture, one is entering a market where there are very few players and hardly any locals.

Keith

 

[Martin Strand III]

KeithO:

I'm not advocating Albiecore. It is one of several available.

If you are getting into the businness, then you must have thought of:

* The Weight requiring substancial poured concrete rebar reinforced floor pad on a concrete/block foundation on a poured reinforced footing on undesturbed earth

* The Expansion of the inner core vs the facade requiring specific expansion joints in critical areas to prevent the whole structure self-destructing with thermal cycling

* Sizing of the firebox relative to the length of the exhaust channels, and, just how long they should be

* Local code requirements (not mechanical for the heater) for 'on site built'

* Outside air requirements with unobstructed airflow to the fireboox for optimal burns

* Method of bedding the firebox door to prevent loosening and create a seal

* Engineering of an efficient secondary burn chamber for a violent mixing of air/gasses so your neighbors won't think you're burning road kill

* Damper position and construction (important) so it really works and keeps working

* Wall thickness of facade so the unit actually heats, but not too much

* Chimney options

Just a few thoughts...

Aye,
Marty

 

[cbrodsky]

Hearthstone must be getting some European style tips from its Spanish owners because I noticed they have a Rais style rotating stove out on their site too called the Bari

I sure hope that is an error on their website when they make reference to 40 lbs of soapstone in the features list. That's about like buying Log Cabin syrup and saying it's OK because it's got 2% "real maple syrup" in it

The Equinox looks like a nice new entry - I think you'd be hard pressed to go too big with a soapstone stove in most houses as it is just so easy to keep getting longer and longer burn cycles with bigger loads.

-Colin