Considering replacing Osburn 2700 Matrix with protruding insert

[Eric Minnis]

We have been running an Osburn 2700 Matrix insert for going on 4 years. Overall we are somewhat happy with it. This selection was made with a mix of aesthetics, fire box size, and viewing glass dimensions. We read the heat output numbers but were probably a little miave with regard to the necessity for a blower. It is in our den and we have about 1850 Sq ft on the floor we are heating. We get good burn times but our wood is 10-15% and exclusively red oak. Recently, the cold snap really exposed the limitations of this insert.

The reasons we are thinking of a replacement are:
1) Fan has to be on for any measurable heat output (this is the main reason)
2) East/ West loading sucks
3) Fan rattles until temps stabilize but does serve as an alarm clock to reload at night
4) Although we have a 2.5 cu in firebox, it struggles to heat adequately when OAT gets below about 10 F.

My Consideration is something like a Pacific Energy insert that protrudes a bit for more radiant heat. Unfortunately- we do not really have the hearth space for a free standing stove or I would do that. We have 2 freestanding stoves (basement and shop) and they are so much better.

We also wish to stick with a non-catalytic stove. The Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 or Summit LE are considerations at the moment. Our fireplace (masonry) meets the clearance requirements for both.

My question is: Will these protruding inserts produce significantly more heat due to the protrusion (radiant) than our existing stove. This one works for 80% of our needs but I have become a fire wood junkie and want more.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

Interesting we share so many of the same reasons we wanna say goodbye to our Osburn Matrix boxes (mine just the Matrix). I’m in OR, so 70% of the time it’ll heat most of the house. But on the low 30 nights it’ll heat the living room, but rest of house is freezing. It’s a 1700sqft to heat.. so like you, when we most need the heat, this box leaves us wanting.

Also, this is my first insert/stand alone. Only had a fireplace with fans in the masonry. Installer said “this is the one I’d put in my home” with me having no clue what max burn time or btu was. I candidly thought I couldn’t have a fire in the insert for more than 8 hours. Right?! Max burn time… smh.
This thing never has coals in the morning and no matter my damper mastery attempts, I can’t get logs to burn longer than 5.5 hours. (I know humidity and wood type can be imperative to this….now)
I’m replying in hopes of hearing suggestions to getting a dang good insert that’ll burn logs over night. Catalyst ones even, if that’s what I need. Thank you to all for any help.

 

[EbS-P]

My thoughts are these. I don’t think how far the insert protrudes will matter much during the coldest 5-7 days a year. What you need to do is burn 30% more wood. 2.5 cu ft has its limits. Think about how to supplement your stove. For those really cold days how much does running you HVAC heat cost to keep the house warm.

Anything sized for the coldest 5 days will run you out of the room most other days.

I would improve air sealing and insulation before I changed inserts. That said if it fits the Osborn 3500/ blue ridge 500i is as big an insert as that make for a 6” liner.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

My thoughts are these. I don’t think how far the insert protrudes will matter much during the coldest 5-7 days a year. What you need to do is burn 30% more wood. 2.5 cu ft has its limits. Think about how to supplement your stove. For those really cold days how much does running you HVAC heat cost to keep the house warm.

Anything sized for the coldest 5 days will run you out of the room most other days.

I would improve air sealing and insulation before I changed inserts. That said if it fits the Osborn 3500/ blue ridge 500i is as big an insert as that make for a 6” liner.

Hi EbS-P, thank you for your reply. The insulating makes sense. Also the point of getting a "hotter" one might cook us out of the living room. Unfortunately, my Matrix was even too big for my fireplace and the installer had to jack hammer the back sides of the fireplace out as the original shape was concave. Not rectangular like the insert. Is there a quality insulation you'd suggest? And would you put it on the top of the box or just the sides or under?

 

[kborndale]

If you don't have a block off plate then add one, as for insulation, I think they meant the house in general.

 

[mellow]

Hi EbS-P, thank you for your reply. The insulating makes sense. Also the point of getting a "hotter" one might cook us out of the living room. Unfortunately, my Matrix was even too big for my fireplace and the installer had to jack hammer the back sides of the fireplace out as the original shape was concave. Not rectangular like the insert. Is there a quality insulation you'd suggest? And would you put it on the top of the box or just the sides or under?

See this thread for insulating your fireplace, I would do this correctly first before replacing the insert:

Post in thread 'Finally got around to insulating my fireplace'

Jan 15, 2014

After seeing the gains from just the back piece of cement board I have gone ahead and done it properly on back,side,bottom,top.

Just about finished:


Finished and painted with high temp black paint in case I decide to run with no surround:




Will let you guys know how it does.

• mellow

• 

 

[begreen]

My Consideration is something like a Pacific Energy insert that protrudes a bit for more radiant heat. Unfortunately- we do not really have the hearth space for a free standing stove or I would do that. We have 2 freestanding stoves (basement and shop) and they are so much better.

We also wish to stick with a non-catalytic stove. The Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 or Summit LE are considerations at the moment. Our fireplace (masonry) meets the clearance requirements for both.

My question is: Will these protruding inserts produce significantly more heat due to the protrusion (radiant) than our existing stove. This one works for 80% of our needs but I have become a fire wood junkie and want more.

If it will fit (check depth) then go for the Summit. It will run fine on half loads in milder weather, but it shines when fully loaded. It will put out a fair amount of heat with the blower off, but in below 10º weather, I suspect the preference will be to have it running.

Another big insert to consider is the Osburn 3500i.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

If you don't have a block off plate then add one, as for insulation, I think they meant the house in general.

Thank you for the help Kborndale, I’m going to search for what a block off plate would be for my Matrix. I’ve heard this can be a big help.

 

[stoveliker]

It's not for the matrix, it's the fireplace that determines what you need. It'll have to be custom made.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

It's not for the matrix, it's the fireplace that determines what you need. It'll have to be custom made.

Ohhh shoot. Ok. Thank you. Hmmm I’ll have to see of who could even custom build that. But if I’m sitting next to my insert, and I hear wind from outside, is this backing plate meant to take care of that too? Or is it normal to hear that?

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

See this thread for insulating your fireplace, I would do this correctly first before replacing the insert:

Post in thread 'Finally got around to insulating my fireplace'

Jan 15, 2014

After seeing the gains from just the back piece of cement board I have gone ahead and done it properly on back,side,bottom,top.

Just about finished:


Finished and painted with high temp black paint in case I decide to run with no surround:




Will let you guys know how it does.

• mellow

• 

Ty for that thread. Very good work. I see I’ll have another project this summer. But worth it!

 

[stoveliker]

That surround plate won't seal the air from your room. Moreover, it still allows the cold air outside of your flue liner to sink down to your insert, robbing heat from it that otherwise would come into your room.

So insulating the fireplace as mellow showcased, and a block off plate (i.e. a metal plate bolted to the top of your masonry fireplace, and airsealed with silicone, with rockwool on top for insulation) will give the most heat from any insert.
And that block off plate will have to be made to fit your fireplace geometry and flue position etc.
Plywood is your friend here, especially if you have the metal plate made rather than making it yourself.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

We have been running an Osburn 2700 Matrix insert for going on 4 years. Overall we are somewhat happy with it. This selection was made with a mix of aesthetics, fire box size, and viewing glass dimensions. We read the heat output numbers but were probably a little miave with regard to the necessity for a blower. It is in our den and we have about 1850 Sq ft on the floor we are heating. We get good burn times but our wood is 10-15% and exclusively red oak. Recently, the cold snap really exposed the limitations of this insert.

The reasons we are thinking of a replacement are:
1) Fan has to be on for any measurable heat output (this is the main reason)
2) East/ West loading sucks
3) Fan rattles until temps stabilize but does serve as an alarm clock to reload at night
4) Although we have a 2.5 cu in firebox, it struggles to heat adequately when OAT gets below about 10 F.

My Consideration is something like a Pacific Energy insert that protrudes a bit for more radiant heat. Unfortunately- we do not really have the hearth space for a free standing stove or I would do that. We have 2 freestanding stoves (basement and shop) and they are so much better.

We also wish to stick with a non-catalytic stove. The Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 or Summit LE are considerations at the moment. Our fireplace (masonry) meets the clearance requirements for both.

My question is: Will these protruding inserts produce significantly more heat due to the protrusion (radiant) than our existing stove. This one works for 80% of our needs but I have become a fire wood junkie and want more.

Hey Eric,
Could I ask why you don’t want catalytic? Asking as I am just starting to dig into fireplace inserts and burn times, and I’m noticing catalytic generally has longer burn times. Im still new, but they also have hybrid ones. Is it catalytic maintenance/replacement that makes you say no?
All this as I think I would like to replace my matrix as well. And seeing what you’re leaning towards in your research would be incredibly helpful. Please keep me posted

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

That surround plate won't seal the air from your room. Moreover, it still allows the cold air outside of your flue liner to sink down to your insert, robbing heat from it that otherwise would come into your room.

So insulating the fireplace as mellow showcased, and a block off plate (i.e. a metal plate bolted to the top of your masonry fireplace, and airsealed with silicone, with rockwool on top for insulation) will give the most heat from any insert.
And that block off plate will have to be made to fit your fireplace geometry and flue position etc.
Plywood is your friend here, especially if you have the metal plate made rather than making it yourself.

Ohhhhh I see. The installer here put a couple pieces of white insulation around (behind) the surround plate.. but now I know that is wishful thinking.
Plywood to form template is a wonderful idea. Maybe I could do this myself? I’m in cybersecurity, so thank you for running through it with me.

 

[stoveliker]

The burn time may not be useful if you need the BTUs. You fill the insert with wood, i.e. a set number of BTUs. And you release them at a rate set by the insert design and settings.
Longer times means lower BTUs per hour.
If that makes the home too cold for comfort, you'll dial up the insert, getting more heat per hour, and shorter times to reload.

So instead I would focus on the largest firebox that fits in the fireplace, as long as you can spread the heat (so you don't cook out of the room), as that'll result in the longest burn times at a given BTU output rate.

Of course if your room is small and heat doesn't spread easily, you may need a smaller insert with a lower range of output rates.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

The burn time may not be useful if you need the BTUs. You fill the insert with wood, i.e. a set number of BTUs. And you release them at a rate set by the insert design and settings.
Longer times means lower BTUs per hour.
If that makes the home too cold for comfort, you'll dial up the insert, getting more heat per hour, and shorter times to reload.

So instead I would focus on the largest firebox that fits in the fireplace, as long as you can spread the heat (so you don't cook out of the room), as that'll result in the longest burn times at a given BTU output rate.

Of course if your room is small and heat doesn't spread easily, you may need a smaller insert with a lower range of output rates.

That makes sense I may be needing the BTU’s that cause my shorter burn times. My matrix can keep the house at 68 (living room is 77), but only for 4 hours, then its coals by 6 hours. (Even with slowly closing the air intake) My longest burn time, 6.5 hours with white oak. The more I’m reading through this forum, I’m also reading there’s a temp range I should maintain the box to have those re burn bars working and keeping creosote to a minimum. If I’m getting it right, and this insulating/backing plate doesn’t solve this: I have to find a box that’ll keep my small (1700sqft) home warm, but do it while maintaining that burn temp needed for re burn, while also not cooking me out of the living room, And I’d like a 15hr burn time. Would you think, for these obstacles, a catalytic insert, hybrid, or re burn functionality should be where I start looking? Thank you again. I mean this Burn King I found said 30hr burn time! That’s >3x my osburn. But, it may melt the piano in my living room.

 

[EbS-P]

mean this Burn King I found said 30hr burn time!

Buts only putting out the equivalent of 2.5 electric space heaters per hour.

Getting heat out is all about the pounds of wood burned per, the moisture content of the wood and how efficiently the stove is running. Keeping all that heat in your house is all about insulation and air sealing.

Deciding which of the 5 factors listed above will give you the greatest return takes some thoughtful investigation.

 

[moresnow]

My matrix can keep the house at 68 (living room is 77), but only for 4 hours, then its coals by 6 hours.

Sounds like an opportunity to circulate captive heat out of the stove room. Have you worked with floor fans in this respect? Or did I miss this part of the thread?

I mean this Burn King I found said 30hr burn time

A BK can.... And will.... Run the advertised numbers for burn time. The install, including venting must be optimal. Stove operation must also be optimal. My experience.
Your home must also be capable of comfort at a much, much lower stove output than you are likely accustomed to when squeezing out long burn times. Simple math.
Something to understand completely before hanging your hat on a BK being the complete answer to your heating challenge.

Good luck with all of the suggestions! Keep the thread updated.

 

[stoveliker]

That makes sense I may be needing the BTU’s that cause my shorter burn times. My matrix can keep the house at 68 (living room is 77), but only for 4 hours, then its coals by 6 hours. (Even with slowly closing the air intake) My longest burn time, 6.5 hours with white oak. The more I’m reading through this forum, I’m also reading there’s a temp range I should maintain the box to have those re burn bars working and keeping creosote to a minimum. If I’m getting it right, and this insulating/backing plate doesn’t solve this: I have to find a box that’ll keep my small (1700sqft) home warm, but do it while maintaining that burn temp needed for re burn, while also not cooking me out of the living room, And I’d like a 15hr burn time. Would you think, for these obstacles, a catalytic insert, hybrid, or re burn functionality should be where I start looking? Thank you again. I mean this Burn King I found said 30hr burn time! That’s >3x my osburn. But, it may melt the piano in my living room.

I agree with moresnow. It seems you need to move the heat. Your room overheats when burning high enough to be clean.
A BK can burn lower, good for that room, but likely the rest of the home will fall quite a bit below comfort.

So I don't know that it's a solution.

I suggest more heat distribution, and if that can be done, a stove with a larger firebox for longer burns, not a stove with lower outputs for longer burns.

 

[Eric Minnis]

Hey Eric,
Could I ask why you don’t want catalytic? Asking as I am just starting to dig into fireplace inserts and burn times, and I’m noticing catalytic generally has longer burn times. Im still new, but they also have hybrid ones. Is it catalytic maintenance/replacement that makes you say no?
All this as I think I would like to replace my matrix as well. And seeing what you’re leaning towards in your research would be incredibly helpful. Please keep me posted

I am not completely against them. When building this house I researched (and used) many different wood stoves. Our criteria then was a little different than it is now. We wanted a large viewing window to see the flames, and it needed to look good in our den. Those were the 2 main criteria. I wanted it to supplement the heat pump and did not plan to try to heat the entire house with it. If I knew what I do now I'd have similar requirements but they might be in a different order of importance especially around the idea of heating the house without the heat pump.

It took me a few years to get my firewood to the quality it is now. I knew this would be the case and was afraid I may not be able to run a cat efficiently the first year or two. I like simple things and the additional controls and parts were not something I wanted to deal with or worry about replacing.

IMO- some of the traditional stoves get really close to the efficiency without all the extra stuff.. We have a Jotul F45 downstairs and that thing is a beast for it's size. On the coldest of nights I run it and the Osburn upstairs. To me, the Jotul freestanding F45 makes a good bit more heat than the much bigger insert.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

Buts only putting out the equivalent of 2.5 electric space heaters per hour.

Getting heat out is all about the pounds of wood burned per, the moisture content of the wood and how efficiently the stove is running. Keeping all that heat in your house is all about insulation and air sealing.

Deciding which of the 5 factors listed above will give you the greatest return takes some thoughtful investigation.

I am not completely against them. When building this house I researched (and used) many different wood stoves. Our criteria then was a little different than it is now. We wanted a large viewing window to see the flames, and it needed to look good in our den. Those were the 2 main criteria. I wanted it to supplement the heat pump and did not plan to try to heat the entire house with it. If I knew what I do now I'd have similar requirements but they might be in a different order of importance especially around the idea of heating the house without the heat pump.

It took me a few years to get my firewood to the quality it is now. I knew this would be the case and was afraid I may not be able to run a cat efficiently the first year or two. I like simple things and the additional controls and parts were not something I wanted to deal with or worry about replacing.

IMO- some of the traditional stoves get really close to the efficiency without all the extra stuff.. We have a Jotul F45 downstairs and that thing is a beast for its size. On the coldest of nights I run it and the Osburn upstairs. To me, the Jotul freestanding F45 makes a good bit more heat than the much bigger insert.

Thank you very much for getting back to me. I’ve heard horror stories from catalytic equipment failure/replacement costs, and some that love em. If I can reach close to the same efficiency without the worry of extra parts like a cat/hybrid, I’m for it. Tho, from all the very helpful advice here, I’m finding I should focus on wood quality/humidity and insulation.
Funny you mention window viewing size on the osburn, that’s exactly why I chose the mine from the catalog the installer provided (I like your aesthetically more, but it was too big… even mine didn’t fit and we had to knock fire brick out in the back of the fireplace with a jackhammer) That may be why I’m having heating efficiency issues.
I have heard almost all good things about Jotul. That may be where I start if this stop plate & insulation/better wood project doesn’t satisfy. Thank you again and I’ll look forward to hearing what direction you take, replacement or other.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

Sounds like an opportunity to circulate captive heat out of the stove room. Have you worked with floor fans in this respect? Or did I miss this part of the thread?


A BK can.... And will.... Run the advertised numbers for burn time. The install, including venting must be optimal. Stove operation must also be optimal. My experience.
Your home must also be capable of comfort at a much, much lower stove output than you are likely accustomed to when squeezing out long burn times. Simple math.
Something to understand completely before hanging your hat on a BK being the complete answer to your heating challenge.

Good luck with all of the suggestions! Keep the thread updated.

I haven’t thought of getting a fan involved. But I shall get out my old box fan from my FL college years. While it’s on the floor, should I blow into the living room or out? I think in, right?
Other people here have kindly informed me that “30 hr burn time!” Most likely isn’t my panacea.
After all of the expertise & quick responses here, I’m thinking I should open up a shop here in Portland, OR. But vertically integrate (shop, install, cure wood). Maybe already here, but it seems exciting!
You’re right, a helpful poster here informed me that BK won’t put much heat out to achieve that 30hr burn. I do keep my osburn at 400-600 to heat most of the house. I fear if I burn lower, the re burn system won’t be effective? I’ll try the fan and let you know. Ty for you help.

 

[Brotatocrisp08]

I agree with moresnow. It seems you need to move the heat. Your room overheats when burning high enough to be clean.
A BK can burn lower, good for that room, but likely the rest of the home will fall quite a bit below comfort.

So I don't know that it's a solution.

I suggest more heat distribution, and if that can be done, a stove with a larger firebox for longer burns, not a stove with lower outputs for longer burns.

I think I should take a quick pic of the room and the entryway to the living room so everyone helping (and I’m quite thankful for) can get a better picture. But your suggestion of a larger stove for longer burn times vs a lower output stove for longer burn times makes sense. I wish I had pics of the install.. so many here would have a sensible chuckle. Somebody only measured the depth, from center to center back, of the concave backside of the fire place.. and not front to back corners that were 3” less in depth. Lots of jackhammer involvement. I’ll try to fan the heat out of the room and see if that’ll help lower my heat output need to heat out house and hopefully therein find longer burn times. I shall update soon as it’s finally snowing and will burn tomorrow night.

 

[kborndale]

I haven’t thought of getting a fan involved. But I shall get out my old box fan from my FL college years. While it’s on the floor, should I blow into the living room or out? I think in, right?
Other people here have kindly informed me that “30 hr burn time!” Most likely isn’t my panacea.
After all of the expertise & quick responses here, I’m thinking I should open up a shop here in Portland, OR. But vertically integrate (shop, install, cure wood). Maybe already here, but it seems exciting!
You’re right, a helpful poster here informed me that BK won’t put much heat out to achieve that 30hr burn. I do keep my osburn at 400-600 to heat most of the house. I fear if I burn lower, the re burn system won’t be effective? I’ll try the fan and let you know. Ty for you help.

Put the fan on the floor of the cold room blowing the cold (slowly) towards the stove room. Your are trying to create a convection loop.

 

[EbS-P]

Put the fan on the floor of the cold room blowing the cold (slowly) towards the stove room. Your are trying to create a convection loop.

I haven’t thought of getting a fan involved. But I shall get out my old box fan from my FL college years. While it’s on the floor, should I blow into the living room or out? I think in, right?
Other people here have kindly informed me that “30 hr burn time!” Most likely isn’t my panacea.
After all of the expertise & quick responses here, I’m thinking I should open up a shop here in Portland, OR. But vertically integrate (shop, install, cure wood). Maybe already here, but it seems exciting!
You’re right, a helpful poster here informed me that BK won’t put much heat out to achieve that 30hr burn. I do keep my osburn at 400-600 to heat most of the house. I fear if I burn lower, the re burn system won’t be effective? I’ll try the fan and let you know. Ty for you help.

I found a box fan on low mice too much air. It stored the air up instead of aiding a convection loop. The only spaces that were warmer was where the fan was and where it was pointing. Ie the bedroom didn’t get much warmer