Too much choice

[Ashful]

Wonder what made me think that

You were likely reading up on Jotul at about the same time. Jotul is headquartered in Norway, although I believe they even make some of their stoves here.

 

[Highbeam]

well yes, there´s that - in my restless night revolving around all this, the money savings buying the Drolet over the Princess easily covers the tax credit. (like $3,000) and I will submit it and let Drolet pick up the fight and see where the chips land. But I just got a retail quote for the flue system and all the pipes , enlarger, brackets, gaskets, roof kit etc, Yikes. so now I have a quote in hand with what I need - do people order online - maybe there´s a thread about recommended companies selling approved flues? Or does anyone have a suggestion? Iḿ nearly at the end of this and everyone´s been great.

Enlarger! You still thinking about buying a new 8” chimney?

 

[BKVP]

I think it is all coming down to the limitation I have on the length of my flue, which is very short b/o it being a manufactured home. I still have to talk to the GM guy to confirm with him though. There was a reply earlier that said the BK stoves (and some Canadian?) can handle shorter flues and that is my limiting factor - I don´t want to have a super long chimney outside as we clean our own every month/cord and It needs to be manageable. Also, I prefer the idea of low steady heat which is most of the winter, and supplement with the electric infra-red for the 10/20 days of artic air to warm the distant cold spot where the pipes are. We are always on the boundary of the dreaded ¨polar vortex¨ and it is hit or miss if we suffer. The place is decently insulated but we catch the wind until the spruce trees grow as a windbreak. The BK dealers are local - well within 150 miles which is local around here!!

There is are two manufactured home builders in WA state that use either the PE32 or SC30.2 in their build sheets. Some manufactured homes have 7' ceilings and others have 10-12 vaulted ceilings. Ask the dealer...they certainly have experience with mfg home installs.

 

[BKVP]

I think this may be hitting the nail on the head - I would be very interested in seeing how the efficiency of a stove, which is currently given as 1 number when the output range is rather large, changes as a function of output.
Whether this is measureable (with numbers rather than experience) remains to be seen.

It's in our test reports. Minimal.

 

[BKVP]

Do you have data on how this affects (your) total emissions? Observational (smoke), or scientific studies?
I was always taught that loading a little but often increases emissions per BTU produced.

The new data from NESCAUM indicates the cross stacking results in the cleanest emissions. North/South loading results in 2nd cleanest and East/West gets 3rd place.

Also, hardwoods (oak/maple etc) have higher emissions than Douglas Fir.

Same holds true for hardwood pellets versus softwood pellets.

 

[Ashful]

Now that the cat’s out of the bag, Anchorage will be telling their residents they must cross-stack their load, and will be installing nanny cams for verification. 😜

 

[stoveliker]

The new data from NESCAUM indicates the cross stacking results in the cleanest emissions. North/South loading results in 2nd cleanest and East/West gets 3rd place.

Also, hardwoods (oak/maple etc) have higher emissions than Douglas Fir.

Same holds true for hardwood pellets versus softwood pellets.

That was not the question I asked (many miniloads vs one Tetris one).
But, in response to your post that is also interesting, does that (cross stacking) hold all stoves - i.e. tube stoves as well as my BK? I can imagine this might differ.

Or, with what stove(s) was this tested?

 

[Todd]

The new data from NESCAUM indicates the cross stacking results in the cleanest emissions. North/South loading results in 2nd cleanest and East/West gets 3rd place.

That makes sense, more air flow in the firebox with cross stacking. I’ve tried every which way with my stove an have found if I want a quick hot fire cross stacking works best but most loads are N/S and give me a longer more even heat front to back cigar burn. An E/W load just seems to block the air flow and takes too long to get going for my liking.

 

[EbS-P]

That was not the question I asked (many miniloads vs one Tetris one).
But, in response to your post that is also interesting, does that (cross stacking) hold all stoves - i.e. tube stoves as well as my BK? I can imagine this might differ.

Or, with what stove(s) was this tested?

My guess is hotter faster burns equals a cleaner burn.
Cross cross stacking just gives more surface area of the fuel load exposed to the heat. Burn rate hard vs soft after is cleaner. In the test

 

[stoveliker]

But my (cat) stove is efficient when smoldering. Surface area "on fire" (glowing) does not matter at that point. Hence my question.

 

[BKVP]

That was not the question I asked (many miniloads vs one Tetris one).
But, in response to your post that is also interesting, does that (cross stacking) hold all stoves - i.e. tube stoves as well as my BK? I can imagine this might differ.

Or, with what stove(s) was this tested?

NESCAUM does not publish the stove make or manufacturer. The data is specific to technology. Stove with combustor or stove without.

 

[BKVP]

Now that the cat’s out of the bag, Anchorage will be telling their residents they must cross-stack their load, and will be installing nanny cams for verification. 😜

You mean Fairbanks. That is where @Poindexter resides.....

 

[stoveliker]

Hm, that's rather strange. I claim a certain mile per gallon efficiency but won't tell you which of the multiple technologies that are out there is used in achieving that.

 

[BKVP]

My guess is hotter faster burns equals a cleaner burn.
Cross cross stacking just gives more surface area of the fuel load exposed to the heat. Burn rate hard vs soft after is cleaner. In the test

The problem is, one specific manufacturer used the ASTM cordwood method and did cross stack the fuel. The owners manual, which is to be used for running the test, did not show the fuel cross stacked but rather what EPA determined was more likely by a wood burner. (North South in that particular shaped stove)

 

[BKVP]

That last post has an inconsistency.

When pushed to the high end, a BK indeed does not have an advantage in burn times - it can't create more BTUs to put in your room than those that were put in the firebox.

However, EITHER the times are the same between the BK and a non-cat with the same loading capacity and the same heat output (e.g. 3 cu ft and 40000 BTU per hour) OR the thermostat limits the heat output (a bit) below what the other stove can do, leading to (slightly) longer burn times for the BK at a (slightly) lower output in its high-end output range.

A "burn time will be the same but will not match the top end output" is simply incorrect, as it makes BTUs magically disappear somehow. Pounds of wood in -> BTUs per hour out for xx hours. No escaping the consistency of the math here.

Think of it this way: you have a firebox that you stuff with a number of pounds of wood, equaling a number of BTUs. The stove allows you a certain range of BTU output rates; high for when you need a lot of heat per hour (b/c of losses in the home) and low for when you don't.
The tunability of the stove is your control in how fast you want all those BTUs in the firebox released into your home.

(This all assumes the same efficiency, i.e. BTUs lost thru the chimney, between stoves - which is for all practical purposes the case when comparing modern stoves.)

The advantage of the BK as compared to many (though not all) is instead at lower burn times, as it is possible to decrease the BTU output per hour by a lot for BKs *while keeping your chimney clean* (one can always turn down the stove, but this may result in a smoldering mess in your stove, and then soon after that in your chimney, and if you're out of luck your home). Hence the advice to compare BTU output ranges, as that is what gives you the range of control.

The BK is unique in having a thermostat (well, I vaguely remember there is one other stove that has such a thermostat, so unique is too strong a word). While many others proclaim their stove provides even heat, I have as of yet to meet a BK owner that says "yeah, my previous stove was even, and this one too". No, those who move from another stove (cat or non-cat) to the thermostat controlled BK invariably laud its more even heat as compared to their previous ones. And this holds even more so at the low end, where rearranging fuel during a burn changes the wood surface area available for heat production, and thus changes the heat output if the air control does not compensate for that.

Finally, it is worth considering what you want: cover *all* heat needs in the worst day of winter, or carry your base load with wood heat and modulate with oil/propane/... on top. The latter evens out the temperature in your room already, so an even-output stove is not that advantageous there. Also, as noted elsewhere, low heat output (shoulder season) heating can be done cheaply and efficiently in other ways, e.g. a minisplit (or a minor oil/gas bill).

These are all choices, perspectives, and preferences one has to consider when trying to reach a satisfactory decision.

You don't have to read a test report to see you are correct!

 

[Poindexter]

I am not touching the nanny cam comment with an 11 foot pole. If you got one in your garage just put it back up on the hanger pegs.

OP, you got bholler and begreen involved in four pages of rumination. The one question I see is how low could you turn down a BK King on your existing chimney and maybe add some chimney height in your existing 8" pipe, versus the price of replacing your chimney with 6" pipe _and_ buying a new stove? Either way, a modern stove is not a trash incinerator, so you are done with that part. I suspect if you can turn a BK King down low enough it would be the less expensive option.

Good luck and best wishers. Nanny cams my hairy butt.

 

[RShim]

A hybrid stove does not mean the cat is optional, it’s still a cat stove. You need the catalyst to be working for it to burn clean. You’ll need to choose either a cat stove or noncat stove. I like cat stoves for full time heating after owning both.

The cats don’t last 10 years. They are rated to work for only so many hours and then die. That might take 100 years or like many full time burners you may only get 2 years. I get 2 years and just keep a spare.

Noncat stoves need to burn hotter for the sake of low emissions. It’s not about efficiency, but emissions. If you buy a noncat stove today it will likely burn hotter and faster than you’d like or at least hotter than you could run your old BK. The air controls just don’t shut very far.

Those GM stoves look sharp. They are pretty new though so not much track record.

Any PE dealers out there?

PE Alderlea stoves do not qualify for the tax credit, which this person wants to take advantage of. It is my first choice, but now I am looking at other dealers in the area for in stock inventory that qualifies for the tax credit.

 

[Ashful]

Hi RShim,

I remember some (but probably not most) details of what you're hunting, but I do recall you popping in on some of the BK threads, and in one mentioning that cooking on the stove was desired. If the PE Alderlea won't work for you, and if your need for cooking is more "emergency" than "daily", then I'd suggest checking the BK Ashford 30. It has a removable top, which is relatively light and just lifts off, exposing the hot top of the welded steel firebox. I haven't tried cooking on mine, but I suspect if you check in the BK thread, you may find several who have. Appears to be ideal... as long as your goal wasn't super-convenient daily cooking. It also qualifies for the tax credits, I believe.