Too much choice

[bholler]

I guess I'll need to carve out some time to look at this more closely, as I really don't know the published numbers. But I'd be surprised if you're right here, stoveliker. My minisplit outdoor units throw off enough heat to kill 100 sq.ft. of lawn every winter, heat being thrown outside that can never be matched by a resistive baseboard. This happens due to the requirement to run constant defrost cycles.

I also started seeing $100 - $200 spikes in my electric bill for every several-weeks period of very cold weather, after we installed the most recent mini splits. They're heating only 1200 sq.ft. to just 50F, my shop space that sits almost entirely unused during the week.

I have another one in a very tight 260 sq.ft. room above my attached garage, and that one doesn't pull nearly as much power. But that room is also getting free heat off the garage below, kept around 55F with propane heat and a small fleet of 6 liter HEMIs nearly all driven daily.

They have come a long way in the last few years with cold weather operation though.

 

[stoveliker]

I guess I'll need to carve out some time to look at this more closely, as I really don't know the published numbers. But I'd be surprised if you're right here, stoveliker. My minisplit outdoor units throw off enough heat to kill 100 sq.ft. of lawn every winter, heat being thrown outside that can never be matched by a resistive baseboard. This happens due to the requirement to run constant defrost cycles.

I also started seeing $100 - $200 spikes in my electric bill for every several-weeks period of very cold weather, after we installed the most recent mini splits. They're heating only 1200 sq.ft. to just 50F, my shop space that sits almost entirely unused during the week.

I have another one in a very tight 260 sq.ft. room above my attached garage, and that one doesn't pull nearly as much power. But that room is also getting free heat off the garage below, kept around 55F with propane heat and a small fleet of 6 liter HEMIs nearly all driven daily.

This may get a little off topic here, but I don't understand the lawn remark: if you're pushing out heat onto your lawn, you're cooling inside. I think something is wrong if your defrosting offsets the cooling of outside air when you're heating inside.
I have a lawn in front of the unit and it is just fine - though in summer it gets a little drier due to the constant warm air flow.

I have heated with my (Mitsubishi) minisplit down to 32 F. It puts out 36000 BTU at 47 F and 22200 BTU at 17 F, at an indoor T of 70 F, and has a COP of 2.67 at 17 F outside, i.e. 2.67 times as efficient as resistive heat (and a COP of 3.5 at 47 F). I heat more than 1200 sqft with that (with three heads inside). I do see about 8-10 kWh used per day to heat when I use it (from the change in my banked solar kWhs that I use in the winter). Of course depending on the weather, sun exposure, outside temps, wind, and what have you, so this is a very rough estimate.

And this is NOT a cold-temp specialized unit.

I thought that maybe your climate may be more humid (so the coil freezes up sooner, leading to defrosting), but given that I'm at the coast, I think that's not the case...
Is your defrosting working properly? (or on continuously?) See if you can figure that out.

(Your) Data are data - no discussion there. But could the cost be related to the fact that you heat more now than you did before in your shop? Do you actually have comparison data for resistive heating cost in the same space (and at the same Tstat setting)?

Anyway, there is a guy here that is a true expert on minisplits; I think it's brian26 - he's in CT.

 

[stoveliker]

For a change, this spring I tried running our stove more like the Europeans do by establishing a hot coal bed and then just adding 1-2 splits every 6 hrs. or so. It worked out well and kept the house nicely heated without becoming uncomfortable. Burning this way maintained about a 300º stovetop with a 300-350º probe flue temp. At that point, I don't think it was putting out more than 10k BTUs/hr. When the temps locally dipped into the teens, our stove was loaded full and ran a 600-650º stovetop.

Do you have data on how this affects (your) total emissions? Observational (smoke), or scientific studies?
I was always taught that loading a little but often increases emissions per BTU produced.

 

[EbS-P]

Do you have data on how this affects (your) total emissions? Observational (smoke), or scientific studies?
I was always taught that loading a little but often increases emissions per BTU produced.

I’m curious too but as long one gets secondary combustion I think it’s hot enough to burn reasonably clean. The key here is the coal bed. It’s putting off enough heat to promote clean combustion. I do find that if when I do this I need a larger air setting. I’m not very inclined to record any data. If you are home and can load frequently I do think it works to keep a more even heat. But forget about it if your wood is wet. It will be a smoky mess.

 

[begreen]

Do you have data on how this affects (your) total emissions? Observational (smoke), or scientific studies?
I was always taught that loading a little but often increases emissions per BTU produced.

None other than flue cleaning and observations. In general, our flue stays remarkably clean, like a half cup of sote a year. I will see if this changed with the summer cleaning. Visually I see some secondary combustion and very little smoke. There is a fellow from abroad that has posted a lot about this several years ago. I will see if I can find his threads.
The point, in this case, is not about ultimate emissions reduction, but about managing the stove well to provide consistent home comfort over a wide range of weather conditions. If I want maximum efficiency with minimum emissions, I run the heat pump.

FWIW, the OP's new stove is going to be dramatically cleaner burning than the old BK in almost any case.

 

[EbS-P]

I guess I'll need to carve out some time to look at this more closely, as I really don't know the published numbers. But I'd be surprised if you're right here, stoveliker. My minisplit outdoor units throw off enough heat to kill 100 sq.ft. of lawn every winter, heat being thrown outside that can never be matched by a resistive baseboard. This happens due to the requirement to run constant defrost cycles.

I also started seeing $100 - $200 spikes in my electric bill for every several-weeks period of very cold weather, after we installed the most recent mini splits. They're heating only 1200 sq.ft. to just 50F, my shop space that sits almost entirely unused during the week.

I have another one in a very tight 260 sq.ft. room above my attached garage, and that one doesn't pull nearly as much power. But that room is also getting free heat off the garage below, kept around 55F with propane heat and a small fleet of 6 liter HEMIs nearly all driven daily.

To be fair your home construction is about as different as one could get from semi modern modular home. No doubt that they consume energy but the defrost cycle doesn’t have resistive strips that kick in like mine does.

 

[app333]

I have 24’ of liner attached and it was over drafting. My thoughts are to meet the 2020 EPA emissions they increased the burn rate to increase temps to clean up exhaust. I not a good person to say how low you can go. With the air controls always allowing a minimum amount of air in, as long as you meet the minimum height I don’t think you could ever snuff out the fire unless you wood with high moisture content or turned it down too fast before the burn was established. But each install is different so you will have to learn your new stove.

I think the blower is a good choice.

Mini split is a ductless heatpump/ AC unit. I run my heatpump any time it’s 45 degrees or warmer. Several threads discussing them on the forum. If wood is cheap/free and easy to procure and process for you it probably doesn’t make cents but and is a convenience that you pay for, but it would make me feel better about choosing a stove that might be a bit oversized.

My only concern is sizing the new stove. You can always build a smaller fire but can’t make the firebox any bigger. My blower will run 12+hours if I get a good coal bed but the last 4 it’s not really pumping out the heat. 6 hours is probably a realistic burn time when it’s cold. The bigger stove is probably 8 and 12 hour reloads during the average winter. At least that’s what I would hope for. 3 cu ft is probably too big but -10 to -20 with wind can really take lots of heat.

Do you have another heat source to use when it’s really cold?

I simply run an infrared near the northwest end of the house where the pipes happen to be. Iḿ used to feeding a stove every couple of hours or loading it up at 7 and it´s usually out by 11 but the warmth stays in the house until I get back at 4pm unless it´s frigid and then I have to have a neighbor help keep the fire going and life gets more complicated, but as I say that´s only for short spells in the winter. It will be a treat and less stress to have something that can burn for 6-8 hours on low if I can pick the right sotve/

 

[app333]

30 years old is from the early 90s, not sure if BK was still “smoke dragon” ish at that time but precat according to OP so pretty primitive and likely capable of a slow burn.

This small home (yes, small, about the same as a double wide trailer. MT state median size is 2040 sf)was probably pretty comfortable as a result. Modern stoves, the ones not designed for low burn rates, could be a big shock to the OP.

Load up a decent size plate steel stove full enough for an 8 hour long burn with Montana fir and it’s a lot of heat.

Good point about the chimney. Might be time for a replacement. Also being 8” is an added complexity. Do all of the stoves work on 8”?

Iḿ going to have the chimney inspected and may opt fot less epensive stove like the Drolet and put saved money into the flue - also I´m going to have to address the 6-8¨ flue problem since the new stoves i looking at are all 6¨

 

[stoveliker]

Spending on the flue is absolutely the best thing to do if it needs it. That's a safety issue. And a performance issue (for any stove you may get).
Get the flue right first. Then get a stove that works with your flue and budget. Nothing wrong with Drolet - in fact, price/performance ratio, it might be at/near the top of the list!

 

[Highbeam]

Iḿ going to have the chimney inspected and may opt fot less epensive stove like the Drolet and put saved money into the flue - also I´m going to have to address the 6-8¨ flue problem since the new stoves i looking at are all 6¨

I would be happy with a drolet. I appreciate a well built plate steel basic stove with a matching budget. My stove in the shop is a similar "budget" stove and has been a very capable heating machine.

I think you'll learn a lot from any modern stove after so much time with an old smoke dragon. If possible, I would recommend you replace the whole 8" system with 6". Shouldn't be that difficult and might even be cheaper since 8" is pretty expensive.

 

[app333]

I would be happy with a drolet. I appreciate a well built plate steel basic stove with a matching budget. My stove in the shop is a similar "budget" stove and has been a very capable heating machine.

I think you'll learn a lot from any modern stove after so much time with an old smoke dragon. If possible, I would recommend you replace the whole 8" system with 6". Shouldn't be that difficult and might even be cheaper since 8" is pretty expensive.

I think I am going to go with the Drolet - trying to decide if the bigger firebox of the 2100 ´is going to drive me out of my 1600'sq home (or if I should stick with the 1800 model that is better sized) with people saying I can always build a smaller fire but I can never change the box size - the1800 is on back order until the first week of September but I don´t need a fire until October and that gives four weeks to fiddle around with things- started to talk to people about the flue problem - I will have to buy 6¨ to run to the ceiling box and then add an enlarger or one guy said I could run the 6 inch inside the 8 inch through the ceiling out of the roof and above the house and it would give added insulation protection - I´m not sure if he is talking sense or if that is a kludge job but he said he did do it in another home that had my problem. Drolet is saying 12´ flue minimum

 

[app333]

Spending on the flue is absolutely the best thing to do if it needs it. That's a safety issue. And a performance issue (for any stove you may get).
Get the flue right first. Then get a stove that works with your flue and budget. Nothing wrong with Drolet - in fact, price/performance ratio, it might be at/near the top of the list!

Yep - I feel better that I´m heading down a practical thought-out road - will probably order direct from Canada even though Amazon has them listed - and Lowe´s carries them but none available on hand

 

[Ashful]

To be fair your home construction is about as different as one could get from semi modern modular home. No doubt that they consume energy but the defrost cycle doesn’t have resistive strips that kick in like mine does.

Good memory, but the mini-splits I own are not located in the old parts of the house. The one that sucks up all the kWh is in a timber frame carriage barn that may be 300 years old, but has been completely re-sided, re-roofed, spray-foamed (R35'ish), and has all new Andersen 400-series windows and new doors all 'round. 600 sq.ft. first floor + 550'ish sq.ft. loft second floor, t's so tight your ears will pop if you slam an exterior door. The other mini-split system, which isn't costing nearly as much, is in a room above a 1995 garage addition, all insulated with fiberglass bats, one Andersen 400 window, and no exterior doors.

 

[begreen]

I think Lowes carries Drolets.

I will have to buy 6¨ to run to the ceiling box and then add an enlarger or one guy said I could run the 6 inch inside the 8 inch through the ceiling out of the roof and above the house and it would give added insulation protection - I´m not sure if he is talking sense or if that is a kludge job but he said he did do it in another home that had my problem.

That is definitely a kludge. The best solution is what was suggested earlier. Take out all the 8" stuff and replace it with 6". You may need to put a 2-3' extension on the outdoor chimney for better drafting. If so, better to do it with 6" and definitely add a roof brace for the chimney 5' above the roof penetration.

 

[bikedennis]

Costco.com

 

[EbS-P]

I think I am going to go with the Drolet - trying to decide if the bigger firebox of the 2100 ´is going to drive me out of my 1600'sq home (or if I should stick with the 1800 model that is better sized) with people saying I can always build a smaller fire but I can never change the box size - the1800 is on back order until the first week of September but I don´t need a fire until October and that gives four weeks to fiddle around with things- started to talk to people about the flue problem - I will have to buy 6¨ to run to the ceiling box and then add an enlarger or one guy said I could run the 6 inch inside the 8 inch through the ceiling out of the roof and above the house and it would give added insulation protection - I´m not sure if he is talking sense or if that is a kludge job but he said he did do it in another home that had my problem. Drolet is saying 12´ flue minimum

Reading how quickly you were reloading and the rack that you were using electric heaters I’d just order the bigger one. You can learn how to put out less heat, but once you start to push an undersized stove coals start to build up and maybe you put off cleaning out the ash to long now you can’t even load a full load in an undersized stove.

Costco.com

when they are in stock. Some times they don’t last long but the price listed at Costco is the same as Drolet direct. I didn’t sign into Costco though.

 

[app333]

Costco.com

Well now I see from further reading that there´s a big question as to whether the Drolet 1800 or 2100 actually qualifies for the tax credit - they are publishing that they do but going of a different low burning value than the EPA - now that´s annoying

 

[EbS-P]

Well now I see from further reading that there´s a big question as to whether the Drolet 1800 or 2100 actually qualifies for the tax credit - they are publishing that they do but going of a different low burning value than the EPA - now that´s annoying

I plan on filing an amended 2021 return and claim the credit for my 1800. IRS and SBI can fight it out if they want. I’m convinced that the it’s is so backed up and understaffed that the likelihood that I get an audit is zero. I clams the standard deduction and my dependents. That’s it.

 

[bholler]

Regardless the drolet is so much cheaper than most others that qualify you would probably still be ahead even without the credit.

 

[Ashful]

Regardless the drolet is so much cheaper than most others that qualify you would probably still be ahead even without the credit.

True. But the flip side to that is that, with the credit, you might get a much more expensive stove for similar net money.

 

[app333]

Regardless the drolet is so much cheaper than most others that qualify you would probably still be ahead even without the credit.

well yes, there´s that - in my restless night revolving around all this, the money savings buying the Drolet over the Princess easily covers the tax credit. (like $3,000) and I will submit it and let Drolet pick up the fight and see where the chips land. But I just got a retail quote for the flue system and all the pipes , enlarger, brackets, gaskets, roof kit etc, Yikes. so now I have a quote in hand with what I need - do people order online - maybe there´s a thread about recommended companies selling approved flues? Or does anyone have a suggestion? Iḿ nearly at the end of this and everyone´s been great.

 

[app333]

True. But the flip side to that is that, with the credit, you might get a much more expensive stove for similar net money.

The only other stove I really like is the Lopi Endeavor which also does not qualify but is $2000 more (BK princess would be $3000)- Drolet at least has a certificate online to hand to the IRS (whatever it´s worth) when the proverbial hits the fan and there´s a lawsuit- Lopi must be aware of Drolet´s argument and I´m not sure if I admire the Canadian balls or Norwegian integrity more. I think it´s the latter - but being a thrifty Celt, it´s my own pocketbook I´m most concerned about. I do hate getting in the middle of drama though but it´s a $2000 concession.

 

[bholler]

The only other stove I really like is the Lopi Endeavor which also does not qualify but is $2000 more (BK princess would be $3000)- Drolet at least has a certificate online to hand to the IRS (whatever it´s worth) when the proverbial hits the fan and there´s a lawsuit- Lopi must be aware of Drolet´s argument and I´m not sure if I admire the Canadian balls or Norwegian integrity more. I think it´s the latter - but being a thrifty Celt, it´s my own pocketbook I´m most concerned about. I do hate getting in the middle of drama though but it´s a $2000 concession.

Lopi isn't Norwegian. They are an American company

 

[begreen]

Yes, Lopis are made about 50 miles north of me in Mukilteo, WA. I did a tour of the Travis Industries factory several years ago.

 

[app333]

Lopi isn't Norwegian. They are an American company

Yes, Lopis are made about 50 miles north of me in Mukilteo, WA. I did a tour of the Travis Industries factory several years ago.

Wonder what made me think that