I’m sure you’ve burned more stoves than me as a dealer. If you want to split hairs just look at the epa list for tested heat output ranges.
Too much choice
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I am simply telling you that the 2020 noncats I have burnt (which is limited to regencies) their turndown is lower than the comparable pre 2020 ones. I can't speak to any other manufacturers just my own experience
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Look at the Drolet 2100/HT 3000 or smaller (2.4 cu ft) 1800. Tax credit eligible. Osborn has the same stoves just finished nicer for a bit more $$ Much cheaper that a BK. no cat so low and slow isn’t happening. Mini split for shoulder season? Kick and extra 500$ to an installer who will get it done from the saving on the stove? Just a thought.
5700’ and short chimney, I would be choosing an easy breathing stove over looks.
Just my thoughts.
5700’ and short chimney, I would be choosing an easy breathing stove over looks.
Just my thoughts.
yes - my current system is definitely short and that may have to be addressed - there is a PE dealer about 170 miles away - but I´m veering towards the BK
Ashful
Minister of Fire
OP: As you narrow your choices, search this forum for those model names. You'll get a sense in just a dozen clicks, whether more of the posts about a given model are the owners gushing over their love of the thing, or complaining about problems.
However, with that, do note that models change over the years and that every installation is different. If you start to see mixed reviews, look at the details of chimney height, climate region, and post date.
However, with that, do note that models change over the years and that every installation is different. If you start to see mixed reviews, look at the details of chimney height, climate region, and post date.
Yes - have definately been making full use of the seach bar to do follow up research on different models and various issues
The choice will eventually come down to whether low and steady heat is the main goal or a better top end for the extremely cold days is preferred. If the BK dealer is local, that is a plus. Note that when pushed hard for heat, the burn time for the BK may be the same as a non-cat of the same size, but it will not match the top end because of the thermostatic limitation.
Ultimately, this depends on how quickly the house is losing heat. A good 3+ cu ft stove, properly run, will provide 8-10 hrs of heat. FWIW, we run our non-cat stove on 12 hr burn cycles in milder weather and 8 hr reload cycles in colder weather. We have an old farmhouse with way too many windows. When temps get in the teens our burn time drops to 6hrs due to the rapid heat loss through all of this glazing. Fortunately, those temps are rare in our area and short-lived. In comparison, a friend has a Summit (same firebox as our stove) up north where they may regularly see teens and single-digit temps. Their stove keeps up with the cold easily because they have less glazing, single-story (less wall exposure), and their manufactured home was built to Montana spec with 6" walls. They heat with wood only.
Ultimately, this depends on how quickly the house is losing heat. A good 3+ cu ft stove, properly run, will provide 8-10 hrs of heat. FWIW, we run our non-cat stove on 12 hr burn cycles in milder weather and 8 hr reload cycles in colder weather. We have an old farmhouse with way too many windows. When temps get in the teens our burn time drops to 6hrs due to the rapid heat loss through all of this glazing. Fortunately, those temps are rare in our area and short-lived. In comparison, a friend has a Summit (same firebox as our stove) up north where they may regularly see teens and single-digit temps. Their stove keeps up with the cold easily because they have less glazing, single-story (less wall exposure), and their manufactured home was built to Montana spec with 6" walls. They heat with wood only.
That last post has an inconsistency.
When pushed to the high end, a BK indeed does not have an advantage in burn times - it can't create more BTUs to put in your room than those that were put in the firebox.
However, EITHER the times are the same between the BK and a non-cat with the same loading capacity and the same heat output (e.g. 3 cu ft and 40000 BTU per hour) OR the thermostat limits the heat output (a bit) below what the other stove can do, leading to (slightly) longer burn times for the BK at a (slightly) lower output in its high-end output range.
A "burn time will be the same but will not match the top end output" is simply incorrect, as it makes BTUs magically disappear somehow. Pounds of wood in -> BTUs per hour out for xx hours. No escaping the consistency of the math here.
Think of it this way: you have a firebox that you stuff with a number of pounds of wood, equaling a number of BTUs. The stove allows you a certain range of BTU output rates; high for when you need a lot of heat per hour (b/c of losses in the home) and low for when you don't.
The tunability of the stove is your control in how fast you want all those BTUs in the firebox released into your home.
(This all assumes the same efficiency, i.e. BTUs lost thru the chimney, between stoves - which is for all practical purposes the case when comparing modern stoves.)
The advantage of the BK as compared to many (though not all) is instead at lower burn times, as it is possible to decrease the BTU output per hour by a lot for BKs *while keeping your chimney clean* (one can always turn down the stove, but this may result in a smoldering mess in your stove, and then soon after that in your chimney, and if you're out of luck your home). Hence the advice to compare BTU output ranges, as that is what gives you the range of control.
The BK is unique in having a thermostat (well, I vaguely remember there is one other stove that has such a thermostat, so unique is too strong a word). While many others proclaim their stove provides even heat, I have as of yet to meet a BK owner that says "yeah, my previous stove was even, and this one too". No, those who move from another stove (cat or non-cat) to the thermostat controlled BK invariably laud its more even heat as compared to their previous ones. And this holds even more so at the low end, where rearranging fuel during a burn changes the wood surface area available for heat production, and thus changes the heat output if the air control does not compensate for that.
Finally, it is worth considering what you want: cover *all* heat needs in the worst day of winter, or carry your base load with wood heat and modulate with oil/propane/... on top. The latter evens out the temperature in your room already, so an even-output stove is not that advantageous there. Also, as noted elsewhere, low heat output (shoulder season) heating can be done cheaply and efficiently in other ways, e.g. a minisplit (or a minor oil/gas bill).
These are all choices, perspectives, and preferences one has to consider when trying to reach a satisfactory decision.
When pushed to the high end, a BK indeed does not have an advantage in burn times - it can't create more BTUs to put in your room than those that were put in the firebox.
However, EITHER the times are the same between the BK and a non-cat with the same loading capacity and the same heat output (e.g. 3 cu ft and 40000 BTU per hour) OR the thermostat limits the heat output (a bit) below what the other stove can do, leading to (slightly) longer burn times for the BK at a (slightly) lower output in its high-end output range.
A "burn time will be the same but will not match the top end output" is simply incorrect, as it makes BTUs magically disappear somehow. Pounds of wood in -> BTUs per hour out for xx hours. No escaping the consistency of the math here.
Think of it this way: you have a firebox that you stuff with a number of pounds of wood, equaling a number of BTUs. The stove allows you a certain range of BTU output rates; high for when you need a lot of heat per hour (b/c of losses in the home) and low for when you don't.
The tunability of the stove is your control in how fast you want all those BTUs in the firebox released into your home.
(This all assumes the same efficiency, i.e. BTUs lost thru the chimney, between stoves - which is for all practical purposes the case when comparing modern stoves.)
The advantage of the BK as compared to many (though not all) is instead at lower burn times, as it is possible to decrease the BTU output per hour by a lot for BKs *while keeping your chimney clean* (one can always turn down the stove, but this may result in a smoldering mess in your stove, and then soon after that in your chimney, and if you're out of luck your home). Hence the advice to compare BTU output ranges, as that is what gives you the range of control.
The BK is unique in having a thermostat (well, I vaguely remember there is one other stove that has such a thermostat, so unique is too strong a word). While many others proclaim their stove provides even heat, I have as of yet to meet a BK owner that says "yeah, my previous stove was even, and this one too". No, those who move from another stove (cat or non-cat) to the thermostat controlled BK invariably laud its more even heat as compared to their previous ones. And this holds even more so at the low end, where rearranging fuel during a burn changes the wood surface area available for heat production, and thus changes the heat output if the air control does not compensate for that.
Finally, it is worth considering what you want: cover *all* heat needs in the worst day of winter, or carry your base load with wood heat and modulate with oil/propane/... on top. The latter evens out the temperature in your room already, so an even-output stove is not that advantageous there. Also, as noted elsewhere, low heat output (shoulder season) heating can be done cheaply and efficiently in other ways, e.g. a minisplit (or a minor oil/gas bill).
These are all choices, perspectives, and preferences one has to consider when trying to reach a satisfactory decision.
As someone who has burnt a princess and a similarly sized noncat (regency 3100) through the same chimney in the same home with the same fuel I can tell you without a doubt the bk doesn't put out as many BTUs at higher outputs as the regency. The bk has the advantage down low the regency had it higher.
I think it is all coming down to the limitation I have on the length of my flue, which is very short b/o it being a manufactured home. I still have to talk to the GM guy to confirm with him though. There was a reply earlier that said the BK stoves (and some Canadian?) can handle shorter flues and that is my limiting factor - I don´t want to have a super long chimney outside as we clean our own every month/cord and It needs to be manageable. Also, I prefer the idea of low steady heat which is most of the winter, and supplement with the electric infra-red for the 10/20 days of artic air to warm the distant cold spot where the pipes are. We are always on the boundary of the dreaded ¨polar vortex¨ and it is hit or miss if we suffer. The place is decently insulated but we catch the wind until the spruce trees grow as a windbreak. The BK dealers are local - well within 150 miles which is local around here!!
The limitation may not just be the thermostat, but also there is a limit to how much smoke the cat can burn quickly. When pressed for heat some folks report seeing smoke with their BKs. This is where the hybrid design can be superior, as the cat is dealing with the smoke after secondary combustion from the tubes in the firebox. Woodstock has probably done the best at dealing with both scenarios.
Yes, that is where I started out with recommendations as soon as I read manufactured home and why the big Drolet was suggested. The 5700' altitude emphasizes this point. Based on previous owner reports, the GreenMountain is going to want decent flue system height.
I think this may be hitting the nail on the head - I would be very interested in seeing how the efficiency of a stove, which is currently given as 1 number when the output range is rather large, changes as a function of output.
Whether this is measureable (with numbers rather than experience) remains to be seen.
I am a bit concerned by the apparent suggestion "short chimney --> do a BK". Yes the Princess initially had a 12' recommendation. But based on customer experience this was updated. I always had the impression that a cat stove, due to its need to interact with surface area (hence the honeycomb, hence the impedance to gas flow), are less easy breathing than tube stoves.
Bottomline, you can try, but the "satisfaction guaranteed" (which BK does NOT claim, as each install is different) is more likely to happen when you have a proper 15' chimney. Even more so when the stove is at 5700' up(!), which adds 2.5' to the recommended length of the flue already (BK recommends a minimum of 17.5' for stoves at 5000-6000' elevation, when no elbows etc are used).
Bottomline, you can try, but the "satisfaction guaranteed" (which BK does NOT claim, as each install is different) is more likely to happen when you have a proper 15' chimney. Even more so when the stove is at 5700' up(!), which adds 2.5' to the recommended length of the flue already (BK recommends a minimum of 17.5' for stoves at 5000-6000' elevation, when no elbows etc are used).
Ashful
Minister of Fire
OP has a current system. Although it's presently July, cool evenings may still happen in Montana. If you're concerned you could get a draft measurement with the current stove running on high, after chimney heats up. Whatever you get in proper heating weather will be surely higher than you're able to achieve in July.
But I really wouldn't worry. The lower I cut my draft, the better my BK seems to burn. They list the "optimum draft" at .05" WC on my BK, a number so low I'm surprised if everyone is not violating it to the high side. My main chimney pulls something near 0.20" WC below 40°F, more than 3x the maximum allowable draft of 0.06"WC.
Between opening a bypass to get the thing going, and then the desire for low draft once running, I'd be surprised if the BK has any trouble on a chimney that worked well enough on his older stove.
I´m not sure why Iḿ resisting looking into the Drolet - perhaps because HD carries them. I just don´t know anyone who has one around here - and again, its the same with the Woodstock - the Lopi and Quadrafire are popular out here with some PE
It's good to be circumspect. Not everything sold in a big box store is a winner. But SBI (Drolet's parent company) has a good reputation and their stoves are good performers. The big Quad and Lopi Liberty are good stoves, but they spec a 15 ft flue before adjusting for altitude. I know PE and Drolet/Osburn stoves are less fussy. bholler can comment on Regency which has lower height requirements too.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
As a Drolet owner I can say their products are well made to meet an attractive price point. Vermiculite baffles with stainless tubes. Yes the vermiculite is fragile but just be careful. Replacements are 50-75$ last check. Burn tubes warrantied for life. Looks definitely are not artistic and beautiful but I’ll take that trade off. My biggest gripe about mine is the burn control rods movement ( it’s metal on metal sticky/bindy but always moves) and lack of any scale indicating it’s position. If you have money to spend there are better looking units but probably not better performing ones unless you want low and slow.
Evan
Well, I just got home and looked through the Drolet reviews and now you´ve got me actually considering one. I´m looking at the Escape 1800 and the price is super reasonable with the blower. Iḿ going to have some expenses dealing with the chimney so a less expensive stove is appealing. I looked at the gorgeous Woodstock stoves, but I would never get one in time before Fall and I don´t think I can face trying to pick out one.
Just to confirm, because this is not a cat stove it will not burn low and slow - is it hard to turn down and keep alight? Also, how are the baffles usually damaged - by careless wood-feeding?
I will call the Drolet tech guys in the morning and ask about flue length. It looks like Amazon will ship one within 6-10 days in a crate or I can see what HD can do for me but the closest one of those is over an hour and a half away.
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So to confirm, the Drolet 1800mis an ¨easy-breathing stove¨ in your opinion? What is a mini-split?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
mini-split is a type of HVAC system in which the entire evaporator + air handler (aka "indoor unit") of the HVAC system is contained in a single box, usually mounted to a wall above a window or door frame. There are also versions (but usually cooling only) that can go into ceilings, in a single joist bay, and look like a regular HVAC vent.
The advantages to them is that you only need to run a single "line set", containing HP and LP refrigerant, electric power, electronic signaling, and drain... no ducting. Also, some systems allow multiple indoor units per outdoor unit, and they're super efficient in mild weather.
The disadvantages to them is that they're a bit of an eyesore, their drains tend to clog after a few years and ruin your drywall before you detect and correct the problem, and they're insanely (no.... mind-bendingly) expensive to run when it gets real cold out.
It is my understanding that they are not more expensive to run (when it's real cold outside, i.e. at their lowest efficiency) than resistive baseboard heat. I.e. "insanely expensive to run" means a COP less than 1? There are minisplit systems that still have a COP of 2 or more at 5 F (and I think I have seen even 2 or more at negative temps).
So "inefficient when it's cold out" is a rather relative term that needs specifying w/ outside temps and COPs.
But as a mild weather complement to a wood stove (that is able to do all you need at cold times, or for an owner that is fine adding a bit of NG/propane/oil at the coldest few days), it is indeed a great option.
So "inefficient when it's cold out" is a rather relative term that needs specifying w/ outside temps and COPs.
But as a mild weather complement to a wood stove (that is able to do all you need at cold times, or for an owner that is fine adding a bit of NG/propane/oil at the coldest few days), it is indeed a great option.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I have 24’ of liner attached and it was over drafting. My thoughts are to meet the 2020 EPA emissions they increased the burn rate to increase temps to clean up exhaust. I not a good person to say how low you can go. With the air controls always allowing a minimum amount of air in, as long as you meet the minimum height I don’t think you could ever snuff out the fire unless you wood with high moisture content or turned it down too fast before the burn was established. But each install is different so you will have to learn your new stove.
I think the blower is a good choice.
Mini split is a ductless heatpump/ AC unit. I run my heatpump any time it’s 45 degrees or warmer. Several threads discussing them on the forum. If wood is cheap/free and easy to procure and process for you it probably doesn’t make cents but and is a convenience that you pay for, but it would make me feel better about choosing a stove that might be a bit oversized.
My only concern is sizing the new stove. You can always build a smaller fire but can’t make the firebox any bigger. My blower will run 12+hours if I get a good coal bed but the last 4 it’s not really pumping out the heat. 6 hours is probably a realistic burn time when it’s cold. The bigger stove is probably 8 and 12 hour reloads during the average winter. At least that’s what I would hope for. 3 cu ft is probably too big but -10 to -20 with wind can really take lots of heat.
Do you have another heat source to use when it’s really cold?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I guess I'll need to carve out some time to look at this more closely, as I really don't know the published numbers. But I'd be surprised if you're right here, stoveliker. My minisplit outdoor units throw off enough heat to kill 100 sq.ft. of lawn every winter, heat being thrown outside that can never be matched by a resistive baseboard. This happens due to the requirement to run constant defrost cycles.
I also started seeing $100 - $200 spikes in my electric bill for every several-weeks period of very cold weather, after we installed the most recent mini splits. They're heating only 1200 sq.ft. to just 50F, my shop space that sits almost entirely unused during the week.
I have another one in a very tight 260 sq.ft. room above my attached garage, and that one doesn't pull nearly as much power. But that room is also getting free heat off the garage below, kept around 55F with propane heat and a small fleet of 6 liter HEMIs nearly all driven daily.
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As I am sure you have learned over the decades running the old BK, there is an art to burning wood. The craft entails knowledge of wood, moisture, seasonal changes, draft, and the workings of the stove. With the practice that comes from burning in all sorts of conditions come the knowledge of how to adapt to seasonal demands.
The 1800 is a good, popular stove, but I suggest the larger HT3000. You can always build a smaller fire, but having the capacity for colder weather when you need it saves a lot of getting up early to stoke the stove. The bigger firebox will provide greater loading flexibility and top end heat when needed. An easy-breathing, big stove can burn lower by burning less wood. During milder weather just burn 4-6 splits.
For a change, this spring I tried running our stove more like the Europeans do by establishing a hot coal bed and then just adding 1-2 splits every 6 hrs. or so. It worked out well and kept the house nicely heated without becoming uncomfortable. Burning this way maintained about a 300º stovetop with a 300-350º probe flue temp. At that point, I don't think it was putting out more than 10k BTUs/hr. When the temps locally dipped into the teens, our stove was loaded full and ran a 600-650º stovetop.
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