Thinking of upgrading to Jotul, wondering about sizing

[begreen]

The only soapstone hybrid is the Woodstock Progress Hybrid which has a catalytic convertor. Hearthstone soapstone stoves are not hybrids.

In the PE Alderlea series look at the Alderlea T5, which is 2 cu ft. The T6 is 3 cu ft and probably too large. It is the same size as the Jotul F600. The soapstone sized equivalent to the T6 would be the Hearthstone Mansfield.

The T5 has excellent burn times, N/S loading and is available in enamel if that is important. The only downside, in my opinion, is the ash collection system. It comes standard on the Alderlea series but the design is not my favorite. I used it once and have not used it again in 8 yrs.. Instead I shovel out the ashes.

 

[jotul8e2]

You and I have similar issues. I have a house that is at or near super insulated status. One of the really great features about such a house is that even a point source heater (such as a wood burning stove) can provide remarkably even temperatures throughout the house, as is seen in your temperature chart. Another is that the house will remain warm for long periods of time.

All this is great unless you are trying to deal with wood as your heat source during more moderate winter weather. Daytime highs of 30 degrees, lows in the teens, or colder? Great - I can burn 24/7, four loads a day. But any stove capable of heating the house will run us out even when daytime highs are in the low 40s. Like you, I hate having to rekindle a fire from scratch. The Oslo will usually allow me to keep a bed of coals going on two and a half, possibly three loads a day. Nine or 10 hours between loads is pretty much the outer limit.

So what to do? As is, I sometimes build one fire of an evening, and let it go out the next morning If it gets cold enough overnight I'll keep enough fire going to get the fire again in the morning. Sometimes I skip it altogether and let the heat pump do its thing - costs about a dollar a day. One thing experienced burners warn against is putting on a log or two on top of a hot fire as this causes a buildup of coals that can take several hours to burn down. Well, sometimes that is exactly what I want!

If I had to do it all over again I would build the house with substantial internal thermal mass. My stove sits against the wall between the kitchen and the living area. I should have had that wall built of masonry from the basement up through main level and the second story. Too soon old and too late smart. Meanwhile, my shop building - which is also very heavily insulated but has a five inch concrete floor over four feet of gravel - can take a day or two of continuous burns and then go for days, sometimes a week, without another load while the temperature swings only from 60 degrees to 70 and back. Which brings me to the other thing I would do different...

I too had a friend who hated his cat stove. So he gave it to me. It was one of the very first cat stoves and was an epically bad design. But I needed a stove out in the shop, so I put it there and learned to make it work through trial and error. I ran it nine years. It burned so clean that even the screen cap remained shiny and bright - I never had to sweep the flue (double wall ICC Excel - great stuff). Yet, as bad as that stove design is, I could cut it back to little more than an idle and still burn smoke and creosote free.

So, knowing what I know now, I would buy a Woodstock Progress - a hybrid stove. The only additional maintenance is to replace the cat about every five or six years. Much easier than even a single chimney sweep.

 

[Chris1927]

I'm sorry. I was looking in a Hearthstone brochure and I saw a description of the Phoenix, which says it is a hybrid design. The front and back are made of cast iron, the sides and top are soapstone. So, I made the mistake of thinking that all of there stoves were hybrids.
Anyway, I still like the non-catalytic clean burn. Does anyone think a Hearthstone soapstone stove might work for me if I sized it to about a 2.0 cubic foot fire box and 50,000 to 55,000 BTU's as long as I don't mind restarting or does everyone think I'd be in the same boat as with a Jotul?

 

[Chris1927]

And, Jotul8e2, by the way, even during a typical winter in colder temps, I still can't keep the Defiant I gave going all day.

 

[begreen]

I'm sorry. I was looking in a Hearthstone brochure and I saw a description of the Phoenix, which says it is a hybrid design. The front and back are made of cast iron, the sides and top are soapstone. So, I made the mistake of thinking that all of there stoves were hybrids.
Anyway, I still like the non-catalytic clean burn. Does anyone think a Hearthstone soapstone stove might work for me if I sized it to about a 2.0 cubic foot fire box and 50,000 to 55,000 BTU's as long as I don't mind restarting or does everyone think I'd be in the same boat as with a Jotul?

Yes, that is a bit of a marketing misnomer. Most refer to hybrids as having catalytic and secondary burn technologies. The Phoenix is the right size for your place and could work.

 

[Chris1927]

Hey Jotul8e2, what is it that you like about the Woodstock Progress? Do you think it would work for me?

 

[jotul8e2]

Hey Jotul8e2, what is it that you like about the Woodstock Progress? Do you think it would work for me?

The firebox is about 20% larger than the Oslo - more wood, more potential burn time. Yet, as a cat (actually hybrid) stove you can control the temperature over a much wider range while still getting a clean burn. My old cat stove could burn clean with a probe temperature as low as 600 degrees, or as high a 1500 deg. - no non-cat stove can operate anywhere near that spread. As a 700 pound soapstone stove it is going to help even out the temperature swings on a fresh load. Good looker too. With the Oslo I get three to four hours of high output, followed by four or maybe five hours of coaling. A cat stove with the firebox size of the Progress should be able to maintain a steady - but lower - output for more like five hours or more before coaling. As I recall, owners are reporting good residual coals after 10 or even 12 hours.

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing but praise for my Oslo. It has been all I could wish and more. If you are wanting something near the output of the Defiant but want to be able to restart from coals nine hours later, it will do the job (at least with oak), reliably, without fuss or bother and for year after year. I just wish I could "dial it back" some on warmer days. Somehow it does not seem fair that my electric bill goes UP when the temperature rises!

There are several threads on the Progress on these forums which you might find helpful. People who own them know far more than I.

 

[Chris1927]

Thanks Jotul8e2. I will look into the Woodstock Progress Hybrid more. It's priced $1000 or more that the stoves I've been looking at though (I saw like $3800). You get what you pay for, but that may be out of my league (or what my wife would eventually let me spend). I also saw Woodstock's Ideal Steel Hybrid, which is priced more like the stoves I've been looking at. And, by the way, I don't think I'm looking for the output I get from the Defiant. If I decide on a stove like a Jotul or a Hearthstone soapstone, I'm looking to downsize, I think. The Defiant is too much heat. So, if I went with a Jotul, I would look at the Castine, and if I went with a Hearthstone, I might look at the Heritage or Homestead. These stoves 50,000 to 55,000 BTU's. I guess I have to look at catalytic though, but I do like the idea and the looks of the Woodstocks.

 

[jotul8e2]

So as not to loose sight of the original question, if you want a non-cat stove that can hold a fire for 8 to 10 hours consistently, the Oslo is as good as it gets. Sure, at its highest output it will be similar to your Defiant (maybe a bit less - hard to say) but you can let it go to coals without reloading as often and kicking back to high output as often. With your insulation holding in the heat, that may work well for you. The Castine is a lovely little stove and I have an application where I would put one - could I afford it (over $10,000 with stove, flue and construction - isn't going to happen). But the Castine will go stone cold in about six hours.

The Progress is currently on sale at $2995. The Oslo is about the same money, depending on where you buy it and the color chosen.

A Hearthstone is not in and of itself going to solve the issue, or not much anyway. It will be slower to heat up and cool down by maybe 30 minutes each way, but they are still a cycle high cycle low stove much as you have.

The Ideal Steel is a monster stove with a monster output - far too large for your needs. But you can be one of the first to own Woodstock's brand new, and smaller, Absolute Steel hybrid at $1695. They claim 10 to 12 hours burn time, which sounds like what you need - long, slow burns.

For a smaller soapstone stove Woodstock has the Fireview (straight cat stove, not hybrid), which has received consistently high praise on this site. People claim 10 and more hours of burn time on this much smaller stove. It would be similar in capacity to the Castine, but can be throttled back to give far longer burn times.

Woodstock has a guarantee that is unique to my knowledge - try it for up to six months and if you do not like it you can return it for a full refund.

Boy, I sure hope they send me a check for all this sales work!

Someone mentioned in passing the Blaze King Ashford 20. If you could see your way to a quality cat stove AND a front loader, this is one that should be on your short list. From the standpoint of regulating output while still burning clean, Blaze King and Woodstock appear to the best there is. With a tiny 1.8 cu. ft. firebox they claim up to a 20 hour burn - and by reputation they do not exaggerate their specs. That is going to spread the available btu's in a given load out pretty far.

 

[Rearscreen]

I built my own energy star rated Timberframe with my own hands that had curtainwall panels, had a Mansfield heating it, now live in a farmhouse in VT with a Progress. In between I had a Jotul Oslo. Although apparently ignorant about woodstoves and heating, my head is spinning with this thread.

 

[firefighterjake]

Big fan of Jotul . . . but for what you need and want . . . I believe the Woodstock Progress Hybrid would suit your needs quite well.

 

[Chris1927]

Alright, I think I'm finished being pig headed for the most part. After a long, painful journey for most people involved, I've come to the realization that I have to give up wanting a Jotul and change the way I'm thinking about what I want in a wood stove.
I now know I need a stove that will give me a long, low burn (I think). I'm looking at and researching the following stoves:
-Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid
-Woodstock Absolute Steel Hybrid
-Woodstock Progress Hybrid
-Blaze King Ashford 20 or 30
-Pacific Energy Alderlea
(I might also look at Woodstock Catalytic Stoves)

Anybody have any other ideas for stoves I should be looking at that might fit my heating needs? How do people think these stoves would work for me in my situation? Jotul8e2, what do you mean when you say that the Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid is a monster stove that is far too large for my needs? The Ideal Steel Hybrid puts out like 13,000 - 60,000 BTU's, I think is what I saw, so would this stove not work in my situation and why?

 

[begreen]

It doesn't sound like you need more horsepower. The Woodstock Keystone might work out nicely with a lower minimum output of 8500 BTUs/hr.. It is a well liked stove with a good proven track record.

 

[Rearscreen]

All of those Woodstocks mentioned are cat stoves. Chris, in your house which is insulated similar to my old house, what type of primary heat do you have? And, are you planning on putting in an outside air intake for your new stove.

 

[Chris1927]

My primary heat is oil. Radiant heat stapled under the subfloor with foil back insulation. Forced hot water upstairs. I have an air exchange system in the house taking outside air into the house and using the air exiting in the house to recover some of the heat. What is an outside air intake and why is it important?
I kind of like the Ideal Steel Hybrid. Its kind of funky looking, but kind of cool looking at the same time, and the secondary burn technology coupled with the catalytic component is growing on me. Do people think this stove would work for me, or is it too big, and if it wouldn't work for me, why do people think so?

 

[Rearscreen]

My primary heat is oil. Radiant heat stapled under the subfloor with foil back insulation. Forced hot water upstairs. I have an air exchange system in the house taking outside air into the house and using the air exiting in the house to recover some of the heat. What is an outside air intake and why is it important?
I kind of like the Ideal Steel Hybrid. Its kind of funky looking, but kind of cool looking at the same time, and the secondary burn technology coupled with the catalytic component is growing on me. Do people think this stove would work for me, or is it too big, and if it wouldn't work for me, why do people think so?

Very similar to my old system, pex radiant floor, oil, timberframe, panelized construction. My avitar shows the house after I had to move. Neighbor force out. Here is my question though - those temps listed - were they with the radiant on? I ask, because I built a 2,300 sf house with a 27 foot vaulted ceiling and even though my Mansfield "could" heat the whole house, I'd have to be on it constantly to do that. The hydronic was mostly on to keep the floor at a warm level. My oil consumption was very low with a Buderus. Even heating the hot water - 2 tanks oil a year. I put in an outside air intake. My house was so tight that I thought the stove might perform better. It performed great. I'm an OAK believer, I have felt that feeding cold air to a stove makes it happier. But I'm no scientist.

 

[Chris1927]

The radiant heat was not on. The thermostat in zone 1 (the downstairs, the radiant) was turned down to 62 all week because I was on vacation and running the wood stove, so the heat never kicked on.

 

[jotul8e2]

My primary heat is oil. Radiant heat stapled under the subfloor with foil back insulation. Forced hot water upstairs. I have an air exchange system in the house taking outside air into the house and using the air exiting in the house to recover some of the heat. What is an outside air intake and why is it important?
I kind of like the Ideal Steel Hybrid. Its kind of funky looking, but kind of cool looking at the same time, and the secondary burn technology coupled with the catalytic component is growing on me. Do people think this stove would work for me, or is it too big, and if it wouldn't work for me, why do people think so?

An outside air intake (oak) can be very important - essential perhaps - in a tight house as a wood burning appliance consumes lots of air in the combustion process and exhausts it up the flue. An oak provides a direct and sealed air intake from outside the house into the stove; they are usually just a common dryer vent but with the flow from the outside in. Your Defiant may not have come with an oak connection. Many houses will leak enough air here and there - around doors, windows, etc. - that the combustion is fine. Your air exchange system likely provides plenty of makeup air. If not, air will back draft from kitchen exhausts, foundation vents, bathroom exhausts, etc. when operating the stove. You should know from your current stove if you have this issue.

I really believe that your situation would be best served by a cat stove, and even better by a cat hybrid. The Ideal Steel is a monster stove with very high potential output - far higher than you need, apparently. Its ability to be controlled for longer, slower burns is the main subject of a current thread on these forums: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/upgrade-30-nc-to-ideal-steel.142019/ . The smaller size but similar operation is why I suggested you look at the newer but similar version, the Absolute Steel Hybrid. There is also a current and active thread on this stove: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/absolute-steel-hybrid.152503/ .

I feel your pain. It got up to 40 deg. for a high today after a low of 33 deg. overnight. I built a fire at 7:00 am this morning and have consumed only eight four to five inch sticks, yet it is 70 deg. back by the bedrooms. Another full load will run us out unless I can wait until the house drops back to 68 deg. That may well be midnight or later.

 

[Rearscreen]

The radiant heat was not on. The thermostat in zone 1 (the downstairs, the radiant) was turned down to 62 all week because I was on vacation and running the wood stove, so the heat never kicked on.

That is fantastic! You are in good shape, I'm jealous! Let us know what stove you end up with...I have the Progress now in my "hybrid" Vermont farmhouse, keeps it warm. I installed radiant heat which surly helped at -16 degrees the other night.

 

[BlackGreyhounds]

Chris: Sounds like you are drilling down on your real priorities. I'm a newbie to burning. We put an Alderlea T5 in our single story, 10 year old, 1500 ft2 ranch this summer and have been burning it this year. It is reasonably easy to operate with just one lever to adjust as the fire gets up to temp, but this may take several small adjustments over up to 30 minutes. Also, sometimes, I need to open the airflow back upafter the initial off gassing phase (1-3 hrs) to keep up an efficient smoke-free burn. Sometimes, I think a catalytic, especially Blaze King thermostatic controlled, would in fact be less effort to get an efficient burn. Ho, hum, the grass is always greener... Also, as for the size, you may want to consider something more than 2.0 cu. ft. On nights below 20 *F this winter, our T5 was not able to go more than 7-8 hrs just to keep our house at 60 *F, so our oil furnace was kicking in. I like your thoughts of the Keystone Progress Hybrid, Absolute Steel or Keystone and Blaze King Ashford 30. If you want a PE, I think you might be happier with the T6 than the T6. Longer burn times and more heat when you need it.
That said, please remember I'm a newbie, but from my experience with the T5, I don't know that you will get the burn times you are looking for.

 

[Chris1927]

I really think I want either the Ideal Steel or the Progress Hybrid. Im leaning more towards the Ideal Steel because of price, weight (the Progress is 700 pounds), and the fact that you can easily get into where the catalyst is to maintain it. Maybe you can on the Progress too but I haven't seen. But I'm worried whether these stoves might get my house too warm. My wife likes it warm, and this house is very big, so I think I would probably be alright. What do people think. I'm not sure I like the Absolute Steel because of it's looks (can't seem to get a really good picture online cause they're new) and the small fire viewing area in the front.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to take a ride to the Woodstock factory on Saturday with a friend.
Do people think I should install a fresh air intake for this stove? How easy is it and how expensive? Also, I have an outside brick chimney, with an 8 inch round flue inside that I would be using. Is that fine for these stoves?

 

[claydogg84]

Do people think I should install a fresh air intake for this stove? How easy is it and how expensive? Also, I have an outside brick chimney, with an 8 inch round flue inside that I would be using. Is that fine for these stoves?

Since you've been running the Defiant effectively, I don't think you "need" a OAK. Would it help? Possibly considering how tight your home is. Nearly all of the newer stoves are going to call for a 6" flue. How tall is the chimney?

 

[Chris1927]

It's not like the temperatures in my house don't drop at all. They drop more at night obviously. Last night, the outside temp was around 32. The room above the attached garage (farthest from the stove) was, I'm guessing about 68 and the door to that room got closed around 11:00 PM. That room is 63 at 7:00AM.

 

[Chris1927]

The chimney is about 20 feet tall. I always have the air exchange system on speed 1 when I'm running the stove (but I've occasionally forget to put it on and the stove's run fine). Occasionally, on a rainy, damp, heavy air day, smoke will back up just a little when I first start the stove (very rare). I have good draft in these chimneys.

 

[Chris1927]

I visited the Woodstock factory today. I spoke with a rep who seemed pretty knowledgeable. When describing burning the Defiant in my house, he thought the Progress and the Ideal Steel stoves would still be too big for my house and overheat. I got a first hand look at the Absolute Steel. I don't like the flaring on the sides and bottom in the front of the stove personally, but they will be making models without this, production starting in June. Other than that, I really did like the look of the Absolute Steel in person and I really liked the design. I decided that I'm probably going to go with the Absolute Steel, but, since I already have next year's wood stacked, cut at 20-22 inches, I'm probably going to wait to purchase one until the end of next burning season. I'm still going to look into, and not rule out other stoves, like Blaze King and Pacific Energy. Thanks for your help everyone.