Thinking of upgrading to Jotul, wondering about sizing

[Chris1927]

I forget what the insulation value is in the structural insulated panels. I'll have to see if I can find out. The walls are made of 4 foot wide panels that are 6 inches thick constructed of OSB plywood, coffee cup foam, and OSB plywood. The roof panels are the same construction, but 10 inches thick. There's no 2x6's in the walls for the heat to escape through like in traditional construction. I wanna say the roof is R40, but I could be way off. I knew when we were building the house.

 

[claydogg84]

BTU wise, your Defiant is going to be rated significantly lower than the Oslo. I remember being really surprised by that when checking myself. It is listed somewhere in the Defiant manual which is linked somewhere on this forum. My real world experience with the 2 stoves has made me question the ratings as well. I'd say they are very comparable as far as heat output, with the Defiant edging it out slightly. Keep in mind I'm burning less wood, burning much cleaner, and longer with the Oslo. If you think the Firelight is going to be too large, then go with the Oslo.

 

[heavy hammer]

I say go with the Oslo. My house is smaller than yours but I have similar insulating throughout my house. When I reinsulated years ago we put like three feet in the attic r60 or something, over ten inches in the cathedral ceiling not sure on the rating, the walls are four inches thick, and then I have brick on the outside to give me over eight inch exterior walls with the air gap. What I'm saying is kinda like your setup just a little smaller than your house. The Oslo will give you longer burn times, keep coals for extended time so you don't have to make multiple fires in a day and if it does give you to much heat one day turn the stove down. Can always burn softer wood etc. the side door is what sold us we were going to get the 400 but the little bigger stove side door and look is what we wanted. If set on a jotul get it, I never really use the front door it can make a mess, but you can find ways to remedy that, use a vacuum when opening door. Right now I'm just burning cedar splits since it's warmer out and the stove has been lit since October. We don't get burned out of our house it can be warm but you will figure out how to make the stove work for you I hope this helps. I far from an expert just a guy that wanted a jotul like you. Any other questions this site can help almost everyone here is extremely helpful.

 

[Holzstapel]

I thought I commented on this thread in regards to my experience with a Jotul F55 Carrabassett. Perhaps it didn't post?

I live in an uninsulated a-frame house that has lots of glass on one end and a loft - very open. The boards I see as my ceiling are also my roof. The F55 sits almost in the middle of the house and heats roughly 1500 sqft. I can only load the stove once in the morning (about 5am) before work and then it sits all day until I get home at 6pm. There are always plenty of coals left to get the fire going again. I put more wood in around 10pm and then repeat the following morning. My wife and I chose this stove so we could get long burns and lots of heat. Most of our heat goes up to the roof peak, but it gets our house nice and warm - the loft especially.

This stove is oversized for our house, but it works with our situation just fine and we love it.

 

[Chris1927]

I would prefer the Oslo because of the side door and the look, as well, (its my favorite of the three; Castine, Oslo, Firelight) but worry if the Oslo would even be too big and wonder if the Castine would be the right size. But, if I ended up buying a Castine, spending that kind of money, and it ended up not being big enough, I'd be angry.
I want to say the insulation value of the roof is R40 and the walls is R24, but I could be off.
I 'm on vacation, and I kept a log today. I didn't start a fire last evening, because my wife ran the oven for quite a while and the house was still pretty warm. I woke up this morning at 5:00 and lit the stove. The log is as follows:
-5:09AM Lit the stove, outside temp. 15
kitchen temp-->66
dining room temp--> 65
loft--> 67
studio (farthest room from the stove upstairs)--> 64
master bedroom--> 67

5:22AM stove up to temperature, burning with damper open, outside temp 14
6:01AM closed the damper
from here on out, temperature on stove thermometer on the stove pipe burning mostly between 300-350.

8:11AM outside temp 17
kitchen temp--> 70
dining room temp--> 67
loft--> 71
studio--> 66
master bedroom--> 69

9:30 AM outside temp 24 (last load, 2 small splits)
kitchen--> 71
dining room--> 68
loft--> 73
studio--> 67
master bedroom--> 70

10:27 AM Outside temp 30 (fire is out, down to hot coals)
kitchen--> 72
dining room--> 70
loft--> 75
studio--> 68
master bedroom--> 71

10:55AM Outside temp 31
kitchen 73
dining room 70
loft 76
studio 69
master bedroom 72

*I'm not sure what the high temp of the day was, may have gotten to about 38-40
I kept upstairs ceiling fan running, I think the heat in the loft upstairs spread out some during the day

5:30 PM Outside temp 35
kitchen 69
dining room 68
loft 71
studio 68
master bedroom 70

7:54PM outside temp 33
kitchen 73 (skewed, oven was on for about 30 minutes)
dining room 69 (skewed, due to oven)
loft 70
studio 68
master bedroom 70

9:01 PM outside temp is 33
kitchen 72 (skewed)
dining room 68 (skewed)
loft 70
studio 68
master bedroom 70

There has been no fire in the wood stove since 10:30 AM, and no heat has kicked on all day. Going to start a small fire now (9:10PM) to put a little heat in for the overnight. Supposed to get down to about 25.

What do people think?

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you've settled on the Oslo. It's a great stove. With those temps you should be fine. Enjoy!

 

[claydogg84]

With those temps and the minimal burning you're actually doing, I'd say you don't really need to upgrade.

 

[Toploader]

In your situation you won't gain anything going to an Oslo because it will behave much like the Defiant. It will give you too much heat and you'll have to let it go out just like you do with the Defiant.
You need something that can burn low and slow: Blaze king Ashford 20 or 30 aren't bad looking.
I know you have your heart set on a Jotul and you don't want a catalytic stove so I guess you could buy the Oslo and leave windows open. In order to burn the Oslo efficiently and avoid restarts you have to load it full, burn it hot and then turn the air back, doing that will allow you to load on a bed of coals 3 times daily from my experience but I think that would be too much heat for you.

 

[Rearscreen]

Toploader, he wants a Jotul.

 

[Chris1927]

It sounds like the Oslo wouldn't solve my current problem and I'd be in the same boat if the Defiant and the Oslo perform similarly. What about the Castine 400. What do people think? Should that work for me, would it suit my situation better than the Oslo? It just concerns me a little because I would be trying to heat 3200 square feet when the stove specs say it heats up to 1600 square feet. I would be trying to heat twice as much space. But my house, I guess is a unique situation. The most important thing for me is sizing the stove correctly for my house/my situation. Sure, the Oslo's side door is nice, but sizing the stove correctly is the most important thing for me. With the Castine do people think I could keep a fire going pretty much? I mean, I realize I'm not going to be keeping a fire going from October to April. I don't mind rekindling the fire sometimes, but what I do now is ridiculous. Do people think I'd be able to burn the Castine for long periods at lower temps to meet most of my heating needs, yet kick the stove up when I need more heat in colder weather?
Right now, I'd say I use the Defiant for half of my heating needs. I burn it when I'm home, at night and on the weekends. 2 1/2 to 3 cord of wood and less than 450 gallons of oil (heating hot water included) per year. I figure, if I upgrade to a Jotul, I'd feel comfortable burning the stove when I go to work and I could eliminate oil, using oil only to heat hot water, and burn 3 1/3 to 4 cord of wood.
Am I burning the Defiant incorrectly? If anyone thinks so, let me know.

 

[begreen]

Dude the reported temps with the Defiant are good. Why do you want to go down in size to a stove with shorter burn times?

 

[claydogg84]

I agree with begreen. What is your main issue with the Defiant? It sounds like 2 spot burns is bringing the home into the desired temps so I don't see what the issue is. Any non cat stove is going to have large temp swings. While I like Jotul, I think if you're looking to run the stove constantly in your super insulated home, you want something catalytic.

 

[begreen]

16 hrs of even heat on one loading sounds great to me. Why fix what isn't broken?

 

[Chris1927]

Listen. I built a kindling box in my cellar that's 7 feet by 2 feet all the way up to the ceiling and filled it up with shop wood. It's down to about half full. I cut, split, stack 8 cord of wood per year (5 for my mother-in-law and 3 for me) off 50 acres. I want to significantly change how much kindling I need, and if I change to a new stove, I have to use natural wood. I love burning wood, and I enjoy tending to fires. But, my mother-in-law requires as much kindling. It's a lot to keep up with. I would like to have a stove where once in a while I can have coals hot enough that I can get it going again, even if it has to be with smaller pieces or if I have to split a few pieces into smaller sizes. I want a stove that I can fill up, get it set, and let it burn without overheating the house.
I DO NOT want a Blaze King. I DO NOT want a catalytic stove. Maybe what I want is not possible in my house. Maybe I need to look at a soapstone stove, but I'm not sure it would reduce my kindling need. I don't fully understand how they work.
My question last night was, do people think the Castine 400 would work in my house to meet my heating needs given my unique situation (3200 square feet, SIP panels)? Nobody answered my question. Jotul8e2 posted about the Castine 400. It's 55,000 BTU's vs. 70,000 BTU's that the Oslo puts out. Less BTU's, less surface area. I don't mind more frequent reloading (what i'm doing now is feeding a few logs at a time with the Defiant). And I don't mind letting the stove go out and rekindling the stove sometimes. Do people think that the Castine would work for me in colder weather (teens, 0 degrees) if I call on it to deliver more heat?

 

[begreen]

Essentially you have created a paradox. You have a very tightly insulated house that holds the heat very well. All it requires to maintain heat is a small amount of BTUs. In milder weather the lighting, refrigerator and human body warmth are probably sufficient to keep the place warm. Kudos, this is one of the benefits of good SIP construction. Now you want a stove that will keep coals for a very long time yet not produce too much heat and you want it to be a Jotul. Well, that stove doesn't exist. The radiant Jotul model stoves are cyclical, just like the Defiant. They have a peak heat and then that tapers off. You need to get up to the Oslo size to have enough coals remaining 10 hrs afterward for an easy restart. The Castine has about a 4-8 hr burn time depending on the wood loaded. The Castine should easily heat the place at 0 degrees, but you will need to refill it a bit more frequently, probably in 6 hrs. A Blaze King Ashford on the other hand does not peak in heat like the Jotul. It can run at an appliance like 10K BTUS for 24 hrs. But you've ruled that option out. What is unclear is what advantage is expected by going to the Castine from the Defiant. Based on the described burn cycle, the F400 won't use less kindling but the Castine is a simpler stove to run (no bypass) and has a better fire view with a nice large glass that stays quite clean if the fire doesn't smolder.

Instead of tons of kindling maybe invest in cases of SuperCedar fire starters. Hearth.com members get a 10% discount with the promocode hearth15. They make fire starting quick and easy.
https://www.supercedar.com/

 

[Chris1927]

I would like to hear other people's thoughts on the Jotul 400 Castine.
I would also like to hear Begreen and other people's thoughts about a soapstone hybrid such as Hearthstone's Phoenix, Heritage, Homestead, or Castleton. I don't think these stoves would achieve what I want in reducing having to restart the fire from scratch, but would these stoves give me more even heat in my home over long periods with less up and down temps? These stoves are non-catalytic, correct? What size do people think I would need if I was interested in getting one of these stoves?

 

[begreen]

There are many reviews of Hearthstone soapstone stoves here. Do a search on the model you are interested in. They will not reduce the number of restarts. The size would be roughly equivalent to current needs, about 2 cu ft.

Cast iron jacketed stoves have the longer heat life and more even heat like soapstone stoves but without some of their weaknesses.

We now have a non-cat cast iron jacketed stove after previously owning the F400. The difference in more even, longer heating with less temperature swing is quite notable.

 

[heavy hammer]

You are correct with a non catalytic stove you will have larger swings in temps. I do not believe the soapstone route will be any different than the jotul route. Heat is heat. The longer burn times are going to be generated by a larger stove, but a larger stove means more fuel means more heat. The castine will not give you the longer burn times you are looking for compared to what you have now. The Oslo will but the heat will probably be more. You would have to figure out a way to accommodate for that cracking a window, possibly turning the stove way down once fire is going. You will kinda have to decide what you want, more heat but longer burn times. Less heat but possibly more fire restarts, I think you could make both work for your situation. You just have to decide what is easier for you to work with.

 

[claydogg84]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you want a cat stove?

 

[Chris1927]

I have a friend that once had a catalytic stove and he hated it. More to maintain. He ended up taking out the catalytic component and it burned better.

 

[CentralVAWoodHeat]

I agree with the earlier sentiment of not just forcing yourself to think inside one brand. We have a Jotul Castine that will heat my 2,200 square foot house if I make it a full time job and burn wood below 15% moisture, and the temperature doesn't dip into the 20's. In other words, it really doesn't. I was going to upgrade to a larger Jotul Model but once I moved outside that brand I found the Pacific Energy T6 which is what I really wanted. I've already chatted with my local dealer and I'm very excited about the new stove.

Begreen is also very correct about the F400 temperature swings. I am astounded at how it gets blazing hot and then cools extremely quickly. It is truly a small space stove. I'm looking forward to the more even temperature of the T6.

 

[claydogg84]

I have a friend that once had a catalytic stove and he hated it. More to maintain. He ended up taking out the catalytic component and it burned better.

You should do some more research instead of completely ruling out cat stoves based on your one friends experience. There are countless members of this forum who absolutely love their "low and slow" burners. You came to these forums for advice, and I think you should consider some of it. The F400 is going to leave you in the exact situation you're in, aside from you now having a smaller firebox.

 

[Chris1927]

So the non-catalytic cast iron jacketed stove that you are referring to, Begreen, is the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6? How would a stove like that stove do in meeting my heating needs? What are the drawbacks of a soapstone stove in my situation?

 

[claydogg84]

So the non-catalytic cast iron jacketed stove that you are referring to, Begreen, is the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6? How would a stove like that stove do in meeting my heating needs? What are the drawbacks of a soapstone stove in my situation?

Soapstone stoves operate with the same style of secondary burn as the Jotuls. The added benefit being that the stones hold and radiate heat longer. This will not solve your issue of having to restart the fire. I'm not sure about the Hybrid style stoves.

 

[Chris1927]

I can deal with having to restart the fire constantly. I do like building a fire. I was mostly trying to get away with not having to produce so much kindling. I've come to accept that if I decide to go with a Jotul or a soapstone hybrid, I'm going to continuously need to restart the fire. I would like to learn more about soapstone hybrids, though. My mother-in-law has a Russian stove in her house, and I imagine there are some similarities to a soapstone stove and the Russian stove (masonary stove). In the Russian stove, you build a hot, quick burning fire, and the fire travels through channels and heats a brick mass, which radiates heat all day. She builds two fires per day. I wonder, that if I got the right size stove, if I could build a fire and let it burn down and more evenly heat my house over a long period of time, then build another fire when needed.
I would like to learn more about the PE Alderlea also.