The cheese they try to put in stove now

[Hiram Maxim]

Im going to try to get some 1/4 stainless plate and put it ontop of the burntubes on my englander 30 and put the refractory ontop of that. I hit the tubes and refractory all the time loading wood. Its the same deal as described about the hearthstone. Its lower in the back and you cant really see in there too well when you loading her up.

use 300 series or 17-4 stainless? ;-P

316 stainless is your best bet for the price.

My buddy has been using a piece of 1/8” thick bronze baffle plate is 30” deep x 24” wide, with great results in his retro fit secondary air tube & baffle set up.

 

[Hiram Maxim]

The first year that I burned in the 30-NC I kept smacking the fiber board and tubes and figured that they wouldn't last through the second season. After that I quit trying to stack the thing all the way to the roof, threw away the poker and now I am finishing off season four and they boards look like they have another four years in them. And who knows how many more seasons the SS tubes will last.

I went to loading just to the top of the firebricks and leaving combustion space above them and still get the same burn times and heat. And don't pound the crap out of the fiber board or the burn tubes. And use less wood.

I will second this.....

As we have previously discussed,The reality is that there needs to be a certain amount of distance from the wood to the tubes/baffle for the stove to burn correctly.


The last two seasons I have been using a rake (36" long) instead of a poker. My buddies cousin made it one day when the CNC machine was sitting idol at work....

 

[precaud]

I went to loading just to the top of the firebricks and leaving combustion space above them and still get the same burn times and heat. And don't pound the crap out of the fiber board or the burn tubes. And use less wood.

Same here. Both of my stoves have ceramic fiber baffle boards, though the X33 originally had a Skamol baffle and I replaced it with Kaowool M-board. The fiberboard baffle material fits right in with the concept of lightweight, highly insulating lining materials for the firebox and, in my opinion, it's the best material for the job. Replace it with just about anything else and you're emissions will go up, guaranteed.

 

[ddown]

I don't consider 120.oo every few years id I get stoopid a big deal compared to converter, Downdraft burn chambers, refractories that are custom molded. I know that and englander take 15 minutes to replace the baffles and I'm back at the races beauty is more than skin deep.

I like chese but not with Whine

 

[TMonter]

I have a ceramic baffle board on my Quad with a ceramic blanket on top of it and it's on year 6 with no problems. The leading edge of the board has a few chips in it, but it's held up fine. Actually I prefer this design as the ceramic doesn't hold heat, doesn't expand or warp and reflects heat more readily back into the firebox. I've seen some warped steel baffles and I'm not sure I find a steel or even stainless baffle a superior option.

 

[c2oxide]

I've got a Napoleon 1402 wood burning insert, with similar issues. The baffles seem like styrofoam and were completely destroyed after about 6 months:

My solution was to have someone build a 3/16" thick stainless steel baffle using the Napoleon-designed ones as a template:

Full write-up here:
(broken link removed to http://www.covingtoncreations.com/blog/review-napoleon-1402-wood-burning-insert-custom-steel-baffles.php)

 

[begreen]

This sounds like premature failure. I don't recall other users running into this. Did you discuss the issue with the dealer or was the stove run pedal-to-the-metal last winter?

 

[joefrompa]

Thanks for this thread. Made me realize how fortunate I am to have bought my Lopi economy line - an inexpensive stove that's well made.

This past year, I pushed my stove to heat my home. And I used alot of semi-seasoned pine. How do you push a stove with semi-seasoned pine? You cram every last inch of the firebox full of it.

There were times where I had my firebox creaking from levering a 23" piece of pine into the back corner and shoving it HARD to get it to grind into place so I could close the door. Alot of those times.

Now I realize - If I had gone with a cheaper stove in the same size, I would've broken some things or not been able to do that.

Because I've got a plate steel + heavy brick + iron/steel baffles, it takes a beating and keeps on heating!

I haven't loved everything about my stove, but I do have to give it some credit here.

 

[greythorn3]

ya im not thrilled with the nc30 baffles plates. shifting a fuller load around ive already dinged the baffle some, and with my ash shovel in the stove also ding them, im afraid as much as im accidently hitting them to let anyone else put wood in the stove.

the baffles are expensive enough, let alone the shippign to alaska.

 

[North of 60]

This sounds like premature failure. I don't recall other users running into this. Did you discuss the issue with the dealer or was the stove run pedal-to-the-metal last winter?

Begreen, I stated this issue many times with my Napoleon. Every season. Thats why I laughed with people talking about Cat maintenance. I havent had to do anything other than vacume and brush. I spent a few $ on baffle board on the Nap and went to custom cut pumic brick to solve this problem.

 

[BrotherBart]

The "cheese" in the 30 is getting ready for season six. Looks fine. Only damage is from the first season before I threw that poker in the woods.

 

[cptoneleg]

It was explained very well last year why these were made the way they are, seems like steel or stainless wouldn't hold up to the heat. Anyway I am sure they are not there to save money on the stove they have a purpose.
I do know first hand that Jotul has a very good warrenty, but the baffle is not covered at all. Someone on here changed one out on a F500 with pictures and was cheap and easy to do. So don't go poking around up ther with your poker. :zip:

 

[par0thead151]

I don't no, but my 2 year old Napoleon 1401 insert needs new baffles. They are some type of fiberboard not ceramic, but they are not durable. $25 each on line and I need two of them. This is my first wood burner other than regular fireplace.

lucky. the enviro ones are 75$ for a pair.

 

[begreen]

This sounds like premature failure. I don't recall other users running into this. Did you discuss the issue with the dealer or was the stove run pedal-to-the-metal last winter?

Begreen, I stated this issue many times with my Napoleon. Every season. Thats why I laughed with people talking about Cat maintenance. I havent had to do anything other than vacume and brush. I spent a few $ on baffle board on the Nap and went to custom cut pumic brick to solve this problem.

I am trying to piece together this puzzle because I know of Napoleon 1400's that have gone years without seeing this issue. The common thread so far appears to be that both of these issues are showing up on stoves in uncommonly cold climates. But perhaps there is something else?

 

[Ubookz]

I have to say I enjoyed reading this thread! learned a lot, did not know to consider the type of baffle a stove had and what is important to look for. Now i will think about: how full do I load the firebox? for the over night burn. The firebricks may need to be replaced in a few seasons; low operating cost is a plus.

I am happy to have my wood stove; in the future burning wood may be banned or taxed for the environ issues! :cheese:

 

[stejus]

Here's one of the cheesey baffles. This was after the first clean. I suspect the sweep did this as he didn't remove the baffle before sweeping. He said it was most likely due to heating the stove up too fast. I don't think so. I tried to bond the peices together and it lasted one more season, so 2 burn seasons and it's replaced. Now I take the baffle out before he sweeps!

 

[Todd]

I had 3 non cats with fire brick baffles that never had any issues, one Hearthstone Homestead with the ceramic (cheese) baffle that did get some good dings in it, but the worst thing was you couldn't remove the damn thing without removing the top or breaking it. Not the best design imo, maybe they fixed that.

Current stove baffles are cast iron and stainless, no insulation needed for the cat.

 

[VCBurner]

VC/DW stoves are overpriced junk. I'm aware that there were times when they made good stoves. Maybe you have one of those.

Dutchwest cat stoves are still some of the best priced and most durable stoves on the market. The operators just don't take the time to learn how to operate the stove. They overfire their stoves and end up with warped tops due to constant high cat temps that make the inside of the stove glow red! Ignorance can be the only blame there. You don't need a PHD to learn them either, just a little attention to detail. This is just something that most people don't think they need in wood burning. Most people just think, stuff the stove and let it burn until there's nothing left, just like the primitive but effective old fishers and alnighters of the past. I think it was Hanko who used to say: "you only need average intelligence to learn to operate a DW." DW cat stoves are made of double walled cast iron and only have one piece of refractory that cannot be reached from the inside of the stove or while cleaning the flue pipes. The only way to reach the refractory or cat is to remove the top of the stove. The baffle is also cast iron. As Ray stated, these stoves last a long time with very little maintenance. You may need a cat every 5-10 years depending on how much you burn, how you burn or what you burn.

The non-cat DW's are a different story, they do have refractory parts inside the stoves that can and often do sustain damage from normal loading.

Vc is yet another story. I still can't believe that with all the trouble they had with the old refractory design, they came out with a refractory piece inside the firebox that can be damaged by loading a log into it Even though the new material is supposed to be more durable, there's no way they can stand up to abuse like cast iron. They did this because the refractory is faster to make and more heat resistant. However, what they needed to address was really the overheating of the secondary burn chaimber that causes parts of the firebox to warp and eventually crack. I would not buy a brand new VC stove for the staggering cost of around $3000 for some models. But then again I would never pay $3000 for any stove, period. There are way too many people out there with new stoves that need to be sold due to relocation or health issues etc... Why pay 3000 if you can find a two-three year old stove for half the price?

Overall, I agree with the original post. Stoves are being made with less durable material and it is unbelievable. It fits into today's mindset that everything must be disposable and replaceable. Things are not made to last generally. You don't always get what you think you pay for. Buyer beware.

 

[joefrompa]

Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.

This seems like a too-obvious answer, so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

Joe

P.s. There are also likely better substances for fast light-off of secondaries but that weren't used for weight-bearing purposes...maybe those can be used instead.

 

[begreen]

Why don’t they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

PE stoves have the ceramic blanket wrapped in a stainless jacket.

 

[PerryBurton]

The lack of "cheese" is why I went with a PE Alderlea T5. Simple shaped fie bricks line my fire box. If any were to break their cheap to replace. It is not a CAT stove however which is fine by me. I do not need something to break on a woodstove causing me to loose the use of it. Getting fancy and pushing the envelope on what a stove can do (performance wise) sacrificing quality in the process only drives people from burning wood. Thankfully some homework and searching the internet can quickly show the problems with some makes and models and one would hope in time the manufacturers catch on to this online critical review of their products and make meaningful changes.

I don't know if any of you remember the ole enterprise wood stove with the top warmer and oven built in. White enamel with cast iron body inside. That thing was built to last. My grandmother had one in her kitchen and looking for a part just wasn't in the vocab for a wood stove.

 

[Nonprophet]

Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.

This seems like a too-obvious answer, so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

Joe

P.s. There are also likely better substances for fast light-off of secondaries but that weren't used for weight-bearing purposes...maybe those can be used instead.

I'm curious about this whole issue as I recently acquired a used Quadrafire IR. Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing this piece and I'm not real crazy about spending the $75 or so on a 10"x18" replacement. What exactly does the piece of fiberboard do that aids the secondaries? I know the job of the baffle is to trap the smoke and heat so it can be re-burned, but what is the function of the fiberboard?

I had another stove a few years back that used an expensive custom made brick baffle--I cut a piece of 3/8" hardibacker board (like you use for ceramic tile underlayment) and slid that in place and it worked just fine for several years and cost zero as it was a scrap piece. I'm thinking about using it again in my IR, any reason not to?


NP

 

[greythorn3]

Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.

This seems like a too-obvious answer, so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

Joe

P.s. There are also likely better substances for fast light-off of secondaries but that weren't used for weight-bearing purposes...maybe those can be used instead.

I'm curious about this whole issue as I recently acquired a used Quadrafire IR. Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing this piece and I'm not real crazy about spending the $75 or so on a 10"x18" replacement. What exactly does the piece of fiberboard do that aids the secondaries? I know the job of the baffle is to trap the smoke and heat so it can be re-burned, but what is the function of the fiberboard?

I had another stove a few years back that used an expensive custom made brick baffle--I cut a piece of 3/8" hardibacker board (like you use for ceramic tile underlayment) and slid that in place and it worked just fine for several years and cost zero as it was a scrap piece. I'm thinking about using it again in my IR, any reason not to?


NP

heck thats a good idea! i might have to try that whenever i need a replacement.

i know the baffle in my englander furnace is 3/8 steel. but its not a epa stove either.

 

[Todd]

Why don't they make integrated iron/ceramic baffles to provide better durability and faster light-off of the secondaries?

Seems like you mainly need ceramic thing for the fast light off - so just line the baffle area with some ceramic. Doesn't need to be supportive. Hell, if the ceramic breaks/chips, no big deal - it'll still operate, just won't light off quite as fast.

This seems like a too-obvious answer, so I'm guessing I'm missing something.

Joe

P.s. There are also likely better substances for fast light-off of secondaries but that weren't used for weight-bearing purposes...maybe those can be used instead.

I'm curious about this whole issue as I recently acquired a used Quadrafire IR. Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing this piece and I'm not real crazy about spending the $75 or so on a 10"x18" replacement. What exactly does the piece of fiberboard do that aids the secondaries? I know the job of the baffle is to trap the smoke and heat so it can be re-burned, but what is the function of the fiberboard?

I had another stove a few years back that used an expensive custom made brick baffle--I cut a piece of 3/8" hardibacker board (like you use for ceramic tile underlayment) and slid that in place and it worked just fine for several years and cost zero as it was a scrap piece. I'm thinking about using it again in my IR, any reason not to?


NP

The function of the fiberboard is insulation. The better the insulation the better it will reflect the heat back into the box to keep it hotter for secondary combustion. Seems like the cheesier boards are more insulating so many manufactures use them to pass EPA tests. There are some better more stout materials out there like Skamol but probably cost more.

 

[Jags]

Just above the burntubes and on the underside of the cast iron baffle is supposed to be a 1/2" thick piece of fiberboard. Mine is missing...

<scratching head> I am still trying to figure out how that board could be missing. I think I am going on season 9 (gonna have to pull the paperwork some day to confirm), and mine looks like how it was shipped from the factory. I don't know how anyone could even hit that board with a split. Dunno...just say'in I'm confused. Heck, I thought I rode mine hard. I have never touched the stove in any way of repair with the exception of driving the hinge pin in the door back into place. Seals are good, bricks are good, baffle good, etc. I guess I better give the ol girl a pat as I walk by it tonight.