Apparently I do. I completely misread your post somehow I aplogize
Student loan forgiveness
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Meh, no worries here, it was getting late, I'm sure you were getting blurry eyed, and I was getting crabby, it happens.
We'll do better today...have a good one.
I'm the OP, but in a quick scroll of my screen, I'm not seeing an option to add a poll at this point. Might be interesting to start a new thread, with the poll, and post a link to it here.
I'm also on a car web site. 29 pages of the same discussion. 
![[Hearth.com] Student loan forgiveness](https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/1661960941058-webp.298540/ "[Hearth.com] Student loan forgiveness")
It's amusing, but really a poor analogy, as this has nothing to do with being fair to those who already repaid their loans. It is about asking me, you, and every taxpayer to pay FUTURE taxes to cover the expense of these loans.
Again, go to school for any useless degree you choose. I don't really care if you chose a career that can't support the cost of your education. Just don't ask me to pay for your poor choices.
Again, go to school for any useless degree you choose. I don't really care if you chose a career that can't support the cost of your education. Just don't ask me to pay for your poor choices.
But who will do all the jobs that require degrees but don't pay enough? We still need teachers nurses etc etc.
Economics tells us that, after some short-term pain, the situation will self-correct. With fewer people entering the field, employers must pay more to attract the available workers. Problem solved... eventually.
And don't accuse me of over-simplifying the problem, I've been through the same in my field, both benefitting from and suffering from changes in supply and demand of engineers in my specialty.
Of course there are short-term problems with this, when applied to teachers and nurses. No one wants to deal with even a temporary shortage of 3rd grade teachers, when their Timmy is in 3rd grade. So, despite capitalism being the ultimate long-term wage optimizer, there always must be some degree of intervention in critical areas.
That said, history already tells us there will be no wage-based shortage of teachers. When wages were at their lowest, we had less of a teacher labor shortage than we do today. Working conditions, and not wages, appear to be the biggest national issue for this field.
The problem with your reasoning is wages in general are to low compared to cost of education and cost of living. Leaving one job because it doesn't pay enough doest help unless there are higher paying options. In many areas there simply are not.
All true, but a different issue. You're looking at today's individual employee, I'm looking at the long-term problem, in aggregate. Both are valid issues.
The good news, to use your two examples of teachers and nurses, is that this is already happening. At least locally, starting salaries have really gone up substantially, in the last 1-2 years. Some local hospitals are offering signing bonuses commensurate with a full-year salary, cash on signing. Our local schools have gone thru massive staffing changes, so many older teachers taking early retirement and others just moving onto other careers, due to frustration with COVID responses and related issues. This has given more new graduates opportunities to get jobs in some of our better schools, where they would usually never have a chance, as recent graduates. Although more tightly controlled (unions / school boards) than other fields, I have also been told by some that the starting salaries of local teachers have been going up, in light of the labor shortages.
The good news, to use your two examples of teachers and nurses, is that this is already happening. At least locally, starting salaries have really gone up substantially, in the last 1-2 years. Some local hospitals are offering signing bonuses commensurate with a full-year salary, cash on signing. Our local schools have gone thru massive staffing changes, so many older teachers taking early retirement and others just moving onto other careers, due to frustration with COVID responses and related issues. This has given more new graduates opportunities to get jobs in some of our better schools, where they would usually never have a chance, as recent graduates. Although more tightly controlled (unions / school boards) than other fields, I have also been told by some that the starting salaries of local teachers have been going up, in light of the labor shortages.
2022 average starting salary for teachers in pa was still only $29171. Nurses have gone up dramatically in the last couple years
Gross, starting salary for a teacher in Alberta is $59k to $66k per year depending on school division.
Nurses here average $45/hr, for about $70k per year.
Our dollar is worth about 75% of yours, but you get the point.
FYI Alberta is hiring. We have some of the highest wages in Canada, and near the lowest cost of living. Just sayin'...
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
FWIW, and we are way off topic, about half the RNs in the USA are looking for jobs outside the field in 2022. And 2021. I was one of them, though I am sticking for now.
As a fairly senior individual with about 10 years to go to retirement, when Arby's is paying $30/ hour for me to make sandwiches I will be gone. I am going to carry on for now while WalMart is paying $18/hr for greeters, but when I can drop the RN burden to say 'hello' to folks at $30/hr there is no incentive for me to risk fatal diseases every time I do a needle stick or deal proactively with all the malpractice lawyers out there waiting for me to make a simple human mistake so they can close in for the kill that would cost my job and my house and my truck and my boat and probably my marriage. Those bastards would probably get my BK stove too.
As a fairly senior individual with about 10 years to go to retirement, when Arby's is paying $30/ hour for me to make sandwiches I will be gone. I am going to carry on for now while WalMart is paying $18/hr for greeters, but when I can drop the RN burden to say 'hello' to folks at $30/hr there is no incentive for me to risk fatal diseases every time I do a needle stick or deal proactively with all the malpractice lawyers out there waiting for me to make a simple human mistake so they can close in for the kill that would cost my job and my house and my truck and my boat and probably my marriage. Those bastards would probably get my BK stove too.
That is low, but you know what they say about PA, "Philadelphia and Pittsburg, with Alabama in-between". Maybe consider moving an hour east? Our local public Pennyslvania school district has published their median teacher salary at over $97k, and average over $89k. The private school where my kids attend has even higher teacher salaries, so I am told by the teachers, but stat's on those aren't made public.
Median salary is not at all starting salary though. Starting salary in the city of Philadelphia is roughly $44000 but that's only part of the story. Starting wages there vary from low 20s to 60s. Clearly low income areas of the city are not going to be able to attract the best teachers because they can't afford to. So even before college a parents income is a pretty big determining factor in the quality of education kids get.
I guess we're getting pretty far from the point of repaying the money you agreed to borrow, but you bring up a complex issue that can't be simplified so easily. Studies in NJ have actually shown an inverse relationship between school budget per capita and student performance, exactly the opposite of what most would expect.
It is likely true to state that there is a correlation between parent income and student performance, but remember that correlation is not causation, there are many community and personal factors outside of the school contributing to those numbers. For example, correlation between income and single-parent families, in which the single parent is just not able to be as involved in their child's education.
For a comparison of how other first-world nations view this issue:
Meanwhile, back home you've got to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We charge an arm and a leg for education and it keeps on getting worse. It's $35.5K a year is average for college these days. However, we'll provide you with a loan at 10x the rate that the bank pays. If you don't pay we'll garnish your paycheck. If you declare bankruptcy (quite expensive), you still owe the man.
So while I agree, that the student loan payoff is not the best solution because it's temporary. It's a bandaid covering a festering wound. Education should not be a high-profit institution and that needs to be addressed. Add the fact that wages have been relatively stagnant for a long time.
This is the problem:
thefinancetwins.com
(And yes, I put myself through college with the help of a BEOG and a part-time job. However, my tuition was something like $650/semester.)
- In Germany, college is free, even if you are an American visiting.
- In Finland, anyone is welcome to get an education for free.
- In Denmark, college is free of course, but the student also gets $900/mo. for expenses for up to 6 yrs.
- In France, it's 170 Euros a year for bachelor's programs.
Meanwhile, back home you've got to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We charge an arm and a leg for education and it keeps on getting worse. It's $35.5K a year is average for college these days. However, we'll provide you with a loan at 10x the rate that the bank pays. If you don't pay we'll garnish your paycheck. If you declare bankruptcy (quite expensive), you still owe the man.
So while I agree, that the student loan payoff is not the best solution because it's temporary. It's a bandaid covering a festering wound. Education should not be a high-profit institution and that needs to be addressed. Add the fact that wages have been relatively stagnant for a long time.
This is the problem:
The Price of College in America Is Increasing 8x faster Than Wages – The Finance Twins
The cost of college is increasing approx. 8x faster than wages. This begs the question: is college even worth it anymore?
thefinancetwins.com
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The first thing I saw is Finland's tax rate of 56.95%. Good luck with that.
Denmark 55.90%.
Denmark 55.90%.
No it would not fly.
But the point is that a country values its people educated, or prefers their poorer people to remain uneducated. Which is the larger waste?
Moreover, the tax burden in these countries is governed not by education cost, but by social security (equivalent) costs.
But the point is that a country values its people educated, or prefers their poorer people to remain uneducated. Which is the larger waste?
Moreover, the tax burden in these countries is governed not by education cost, but by social security (equivalent) costs.
Now add in medical and education costs and I'm guessing your pretty close to that figure already without the benefit for everyone in the US.
Not to mention property taxes, which are counted in the tax burden (at least for my old country, as it was added to your IRS tax bill).
Actually, they get a lot for the high taxes. By not spending the majority of these funds on the military they get some excellent benefits. There's a reason why Denmark is always among the top spots of the world’s happiest places. In addition to great education benefits, they also get at least 5 weeks paid leave a year, they have universal health care, a generous retirement pension, elderly home care, and 52 weeks paid leave for a new child split between both parents.
Why Danes Appreciate the High Danish Income Tax Rate | IRIS FMP
Denmark has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, and yet is home to some of the happiest people. Find out why it’s the tax that they appreciate.
fmpglobal.com
When compared to the combined state, FICA, and federal income tax of say MA being about 20%, then add at least 15% more for retirement planning, they get more for their money for life.
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