There are some things that simply should not be for profit. Healthcare, education, and prisons are amongst them. Most of the modern world has figured this out. Instead, we discuss another form of Trollyman's dilemma.
![[Hearth.com] Student loan forgiveness](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/298/298544-bfc22fae69ce416fa489d1d02ba33104.jpg?hash=FbjiAJDe1L "[Hearth.com] Student loan forgiveness")
Student loan forgiveness
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True. See my earlier reference to the Medici and Michelangelo.
I'll agree on prisons, for-profit prisons are among the most deplorable issues of our time, but not healthcare or education. The world would be in a much different place today, in terms of our history medical technology development, if it were not a profitable business. Socialism is a wonderful idea, but capitalism gets the job done.
Capitalism only works with the help of social programs as well. And yes without a doubt we need capitalism. But seriously our medical system barely works at this point because the costs have gotten so out of hand. Yes you can get great care but it might make you bankrupt. Education isn't nearly as bad yet but it's getting there.
The older I get, the more everything becomes shades of grey, and not so black and white. It’s not just cataracts either…
So, I don’t disagree that capitalism sometimes benefits from social programs. But where you and I draw the line will always be different places. Fundamentally, I want to see anyone have the opportunity to better their place in life. Anyone, as in those willing to put in the effort, and that’s not everyone.
Anyone vs Everyone, it will always be the separation between right and left, I suppose.
When I say capitalism only works with social programs I am talking more about roads police fire etc etc.
Then you need to look at all of the government funding given to private industry. Is it really capitalism if it's propped up by taxpayer money.
Then all of the corporations and industries that pay their workers below the cutoff for welfare and expect the government to cover the rest.
We are very very far from a pure capitalist society.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Hmm...calling people on a wood heat forum entitled seems misguided, at best.
I have personally met many people from this, and another wood heat forum, and not one entitled person in the bunch...self reliant and generous would be 2 of the words I would use to describe the vast majority of these people...which so far none of which have posted in this thread, but I'd venture a guess that most of those here would be well described by those words too.
There's lots of things going on in this country that I would describe as a "raging dumpster fire" right now, but student loan repayment isn't one of them (for the majority) this is plain and simple another political ploy being used to buy votes.
And if where you are standing today is "on fire", student loan debt could certainly be adding a lil fuel, but it is not the real problem for 99.9%...and for the .1% that it is the real problem, $10k (20) isn't gonna go very far to "fix" things anyway.
While I agree with some of what you said your assumption that it only effects. 1% is way off.
Right, the rest of the world is suffering terribly. Tell that to the Scandinavians, French, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and Australians. FWIW, our healthcare system was not for profit up until the late 60s. And note that I said nothing about medical research.
Education is key to a strong society. Calling non-profit healthcare and education socialism demonstrates a lack of understanding of the meaning of the word.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
What data makes you think that school loan debt is what is making more peoples lives "on fire"...and that $10k (20) will put it out?
Admittedly I did just pull a number out of the air...but I have never, not once, talked to someone who said their school loans were crushing them. And I have participated in some Dave Ramsey classes, so yeah, I have had some pretty in depth discussions with quite a few people about their exact types of debt.
I think this thread has drifted mighty far from student loan forgiveness, in the last two pages. We're getting down to arguing philosophy, at this point.
I never said anything about "on fire" or anything about the $10000. All I said was it effected more than .1% I just know many many people who struggle to repay student loans. And it effects more than just the loan holder it effects their spouse their kids etc.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
I did, I was addressing Spacebus' comment (which I quoted)
I know lots of people that struggle to pay their bills, schools loans are just part of it...and usually not one of the larger parts. But yeah, the overall debt load that many people carry is ridiculous, which goes back to the basic household finances and wise decision making (critical thinking) that I have been talking about...its just not taught nearly enough anymore. How many people that get $10k knocked off their bill will say "wow, that gives me the extra breathing room I needed to get the rest of this debt paid off and man did I ever learn my lesson here!" Nope, the vast majority will treat is as a windfall and just waste it somewhere else...and in the end we the people will be on the hook for over $2k, for every man women and child...ridiculous! https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-forgiveness-10000-cost/
Again I don't support the idea of wiping out existing debts at all. And actually it seems most commenting here dont. But it is a real problem for plenty of people.
Several of you are acting like anyone who ends up having a hard time paying their bill is an idiot or irresponsible. This simply isn't true many people end up in hard time due to circumstances completely out of their control. And for people in that situation reducing debt by $10000 could be a very big deal.
Watching my sons try to navigate life and college I realize that they are working under a very different paradigm where real income is much less while educational costs are much higher.
I was able to graduate college without student loans by working my way through but I can't imagine doing that nowadays.
I did build up a substantial amount of student debt in grad school though and it took some hard work and time to clean that slate. I feel like I'm still paying for that.
When I look at all the ways in which our public funds are used, some forgiveness on student loads seems like one of the better investments that can be made.
I was able to graduate college without student loans by working my way through but I can't imagine doing that nowadays.
I did build up a substantial amount of student debt in grad school though and it took some hard work and time to clean that slate. I feel like I'm still paying for that.
When I look at all the ways in which our public funds are used, some forgiveness on student loads seems like one of the better investments that can be made.
Not sure what rents are in the folks' area, but in Seattle, it's about $2K for a decent one-bedroom or higher. I have met two young people in their late 20s in the past week that are paying off high student loans and car loans (not fancy or new), plus the costs of living. They are not able to save and just getting by in spite of having decent jobs. Their saving grace is that they don't have families. If they did you can raise those costs of living substantially. This is not the world we grew up in.
The average wage has been stagnant for a long time while living costs are escalating dramatically. So it doesn't bug me that those most needing it are getting a hand up and out of debt. I feel a lot better about this than some of the PPP grant monies that went to several congresspeople. And it's much better spent tax money than the massive, unfunded, tax break for the weathiest of a couple of years ago. That's another sort of forgiveness. Funny thing, there was barely a peep about that one here.
The average wage has been stagnant for a long time while living costs are escalating dramatically. So it doesn't bug me that those most needing it are getting a hand up and out of debt. I feel a lot better about this than some of the PPP grant monies that went to several congresspeople. And it's much better spent tax money than the massive, unfunded, tax break for the weathiest of a couple of years ago. That's another sort of forgiveness. Funny thing, there was barely a peep about that one here.
That's high, and a reason my area is seeing young couples arrive from the cities. We have a 1400sqft home, just over 5 years old, 2 car attached garage. I'm just a hair over $2k/month, that's mortgage, property tax, water, garbage collection, power and gas. Best part is in 20 more years this place is mine.
I turn 30 in December. But I walked away from 1st year Engineering, partly out of lack of interest in Linear Algebra and Calculus, and because there was no financial gain to stay. I started a trade and worked my bag off in the oil patch, I made far more money than any 20 year old should ever be allowed to have, travelled some, bought toys, and blew most of the rest, saving just enough for the down payment on our house.
My brother finished his Engineering degree, and started in the work force four years after I did. Effectively he's 4 years behind where I was at the same age. Today we both have similar jobs, I'm a Junior Project Manager, he's an Engineering Sales Manager. We both work similar hours, but having a trade actually gives me the advantage in wages. Different paths to the same place.
Honestly if I was walking out of high school today, I'd go to college and take some BS program for a year, spend the year partying, then walk out of school and head toward an electrical apprenticeship. Not to say post-secondary education isn't good, but in my area and from my experience it doesn't pay. Avoids the whole issue of student loans.
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brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
Not everyone, no way, unforeseen circumstances can wipe out the best nest egg, even sometimes with insurance in place...but I think anyone with even vague familiarity would have to admit bad financial decisions are on an epidemic level these days.
Over 20 years ago I spent a few years in auto sales (mostly trucks) and it didn't take me too long to figure out that was not my calling...I couldn't stand watching these people buying stuff they had no business buying (couldn't afford it...even though the bank approved it)
Well, for those that get it, I hope it is...and I hope they use it as a big step to a better future...but if you are being honest with yourself, you gotta know many/most won't.
Just like a guy I work with, we all say he'd make an excellent financial advisor...just do the opposite of him, you'll be fine! Poor guy is less than a year from retiring, for a second time, and doesn't have a pot to pizz in...owes big money on everything he has....and has always had a pretty darn good job, its just a lifetime of day to day bad financial decisions. And stories like his are all too common...just catch Dave Ramsey on the radio someday, like him or not, its a real eye opener to what's "normal" in todays society, as far as people's spending habits.
And just to be clear, I'm not picking on people having a hard time the last year or two...these are not normal times...but all the more reason to try to get out of debt, then stay out...makes times like this, at the very least, a bit more bearable.
This has been an interesting thread with many facets and hundreds of rabbit holes to go down.
I’m not too wild with this idea. However, my stance has softened a bit and my eyes opened after reading some posts on here. I really want to have an open mind about this. That being said I kind of take issue with being told I have an “entitled” point of view because I think people should suffer because I suffered, or be held accountable for their actions or choices, good or bad. In my opinion, I can turn that sentiment around and say there are a lot of people who feel entitled to not have to suffer or live with the consequences of their choices. They should get what they want, get it now and not make any sacrifice for it.
I was led to believe that tech stocks would only go up in 1999. I was led to believe that home values could not go down in 2007. I was led to believe that my first wife was “the one”. I suffered greatly because of all those “lies.” But in reality, I just made poor decisions. My net worth would be north of 7 figures if those unfortunate things didn’t happen. Instead, I lost my framing business in 2009 and went from an income of 90K to asking a friend if I could come learn to weld at a mill he worked at- for $10/hr. I didn’t get one penny from the government and believe me, I was struggling.
I truly feel for people who are burdened by debt. I really do. But no one forced them to take out those loans. If you are fortunate enough to go to college, you should be able to comprehend getting a loan requires having to pay it back. Thats why its called a loan. I’m not saying we always make the best decisions in life, especially at 18 years of age, but you have to learn to live with those decisions. I also understand circumstances happen beyond one’s control —this is extremely unfortunate. But that is life. I need a truck for my job-- If I go out and buy a $100k top of the line truck with all the bells and whistles with no money down on an 84 month note (because I listened to the dealer) and the housing market tumbles and I’m out of work, am I entitled to truck loan relief? It wasn’t my fault the housing market crashed and now Im expected to pay this loan back along with my other bills? Should I really expect/demand the Federal Government and its tax paying citizens to help me? (I realize this isnt exactly an apples to apples comparison, just using it for effect. Plus, I would never buy a $100k truck). I’m all for helping people but who makes the decision of who gets what and how much? And where do we draw the line?
If I am honest with myself, I cant be too upset for people with student loan debt wanting help. Why can banks, car makers, farmers, oil companies, etc. get bailed out or subsidized but not people trying to make themselves better?
There is obviously a problem. The cost of higher education is part of it. The fact that some jobs require a college education or an advanced degree, but have a low salary is another. There are more. I’m not smart enough to fix it, but in my opinion, this (debt relief) won’t fix the problem either.
I’m not too wild with this idea. However, my stance has softened a bit and my eyes opened after reading some posts on here. I really want to have an open mind about this. That being said I kind of take issue with being told I have an “entitled” point of view because I think people should suffer because I suffered, or be held accountable for their actions or choices, good or bad. In my opinion, I can turn that sentiment around and say there are a lot of people who feel entitled to not have to suffer or live with the consequences of their choices. They should get what they want, get it now and not make any sacrifice for it.
I was led to believe that tech stocks would only go up in 1999. I was led to believe that home values could not go down in 2007. I was led to believe that my first wife was “the one”. I suffered greatly because of all those “lies.” But in reality, I just made poor decisions. My net worth would be north of 7 figures if those unfortunate things didn’t happen. Instead, I lost my framing business in 2009 and went from an income of 90K to asking a friend if I could come learn to weld at a mill he worked at- for $10/hr. I didn’t get one penny from the government and believe me, I was struggling.
I truly feel for people who are burdened by debt. I really do. But no one forced them to take out those loans. If you are fortunate enough to go to college, you should be able to comprehend getting a loan requires having to pay it back. Thats why its called a loan. I’m not saying we always make the best decisions in life, especially at 18 years of age, but you have to learn to live with those decisions. I also understand circumstances happen beyond one’s control —this is extremely unfortunate. But that is life. I need a truck for my job-- If I go out and buy a $100k top of the line truck with all the bells and whistles with no money down on an 84 month note (because I listened to the dealer) and the housing market tumbles and I’m out of work, am I entitled to truck loan relief? It wasn’t my fault the housing market crashed and now Im expected to pay this loan back along with my other bills? Should I really expect/demand the Federal Government and its tax paying citizens to help me? (I realize this isnt exactly an apples to apples comparison, just using it for effect. Plus, I would never buy a $100k truck). I’m all for helping people but who makes the decision of who gets what and how much? And where do we draw the line?
If I am honest with myself, I cant be too upset for people with student loan debt wanting help. Why can banks, car makers, farmers, oil companies, etc. get bailed out or subsidized but not people trying to make themselves better?
There is obviously a problem. The cost of higher education is part of it. The fact that some jobs require a college education or an advanced degree, but have a low salary is another. There are more. I’m not smart enough to fix it, but in my opinion, this (debt relief) won’t fix the problem either.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Is anyone posting paying for childcare now? We have a nice daycare and preschool (to think for a bit we are starting our 11th year there). My 2 day a week 4 year old now costs $500 per month. It’s not a ritzy place (buts it 5 star rated and apparently that not always easy to achieve) but the do require 4 year degrees and masters if you want to keep working there longer than 2 years. That’s right to wipe noses and bums you need a post secondary education. Pay wasn’t and probably isn’t great(I think it’s gotten better as the turnover rate has plummeted the last 2 years) and most probably took out loans for the masters. Every tuition (yeah they call it that) increase I gladly paid knowing that their staff was was getting most of that increase. Saying 4 year degrees aren’t necessary is ignoring the reality that to change my child’s soiled diaper you need a master’s degree.
Saying 10k forgiveness isn’t meaningful for someone else is the same as telling someone how they like their coffee. You don’t, you ask.
Saying 10k forgiveness isn’t meaningful for someone else is the same as telling someone how they like their coffee. You don’t, you ask.
Really? What type of nest egg do you think people a few years out of college have? You don't think a serious illness or injury could burn through savings really quickly even if you have a substantial nest egg? The simple fact is pay has not kept up to cost of living increases for a long time. Not even close. And the job market has been changing so fast that no one knows what salary to expect coming out of school
Can we add a poll to this thread?
I'm curious to know how many members have how much (if any) post secondary education. Seems from reading this thread that many members have a degree of some kind.
I'm curious to know how many members have how much (if any) post secondary education. Seems from reading this thread that many members have a degree of some kind.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
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