storage was dowm to 86 F this morning

[maple1]

Got time for one more quickie before I head out to spend the day driving snowy roads getting the kids back to college.

Not sure what your overall plans are for heating the DHW, but after what I went through to get where I am now, I would advise not to spend too much on the ability to heat DHW all year (i.e. during the non-heating season also) when not burning for heat. I can heat DHW on one good burn a week in the summer, but am pretty well at the point of not bothering & just turning the electric water heater on for those months - since I can do that for $20-25/mo.

Time to load up & head out...

 

[JohnDolz]

Got time for one more quickie before I head out to spend the day driving snowy roads getting the kids back to college.

Not sure what your overall plans are for heating the DHW, but after what I went through to get where I am now, I would advise not to spend too much on the ability to heat DHW all year (i.e. during the non-heating season also) when not burning for heat. I can heat DHW on one good burn a week in the summer, but am pretty well at the point of not bothering & just turning the electric water heater on for those months - since I can do that for $20-25/mo.

Time to load up & head out...

Once the heating season is over I switch to propane for DHW. This loop is for now, I am running flow temps so low that I cannot heat my DHW. Again I FULLY realize that that this makes no Financial sense, it is just fun. Speaking of which I need to further kill the ROI by going out and moving 23 tons of process stone so I can create a flat area out back to stack rounds for 2 years out.

 

[NP ALASKA]

You mentioned that you're using 250 gallons of buffer for your Effecta. I'm assuming you're not using the 1250 gallons then? My boiler is 15 kW and I think my storage is 108 gal.
The smaller storage tanks with pellet boilers are a different animal than the biggie tanks. I look at them as a way to store excess heat for fewer restarts and to give a head start while the boiler is coming up to heat. Right now, I have about 15 minutes or so of tank heat before it runs out at 120, but I've been keeping it low.

The pellet boilers modulate down (mine goes to 30%), so there's a possibility that it might never shut off where you are, unless you run out of pellets.

It sounds like things are integrated on the Effecta, although I'm not clear on whether it does any actual reset on the boiler temperature, which, since it's non condensing, can only go down so much. It would be nice if it could reduce that somewhat as well as mix down cooler water for the primary loop, or whatever.

I've noted this elsewhere, but on my setup, if the top of my buffer was at 165, and my pellet boiler was running, I can't remove heat from the buffer-it's a one way street. I can only remove heat from the buffer when the boiler isn't running. As I understand it, the longer on time for the boiler the better. I'm trying to figure out something, but the reality is that it might not really be a big problem-it's only a buffer after all.


Somebody asked recently where a similar Euro style baro damper could be purchased. Marc Caluwe, the distributor, supplied the baro damper for my install. Did your supplier also provide the damper or did you get it elsewhere. Maybe I was lucky it plugged into a 6" vent tee:
View attachment 170810

Yes I only use the 250 in pellet mode and the 1250 in wood mode. My pellet burner is 30 or 35kw, it runs to the the buffer tank or tanks via my Laddomat. The house draws off the top of the buffer tank or tanks depending on mode I am in.
My boiler runs around 173-180 at the feed rate i have it at. It still runs about 12.5-13 co2 %. the sensor on the top of buffer tells it when to shut off.
it just shut off about 15 minutes ago., even at 30+ below it sbuts off, probably does rjn more feequent though as i load hopper a bit more often

i got the Tigex from Effecta, looked lodally for months and gave up. The US version i was using worked but it didnt seal and we had dust every where to clean up.

i have a 7" into 8" metalbestos. The adapter available had the thing sticking aout 13 to 14 inches over the boiler, didnt like it and made my own.

Regards

 

[velvetfoot]

My boiler runs around 173-180 at the feed rate i have it at. It still runs about 12.5-13 co2 %. the sensor on the top of buffer tells it when to shut off.
it just shut off about 15 minutes ago., even at 30+ below it sbuts off, probably does rjn more feequent though as i load hopper a bit more often

Where does the co2 reading come from-the Effecta's lambda? I'm not sure what that means, as far as translating into % of modulation.
I have my boiler to run until it shuts itself off. I feel I get a more consistent buffer tank 'fill' that way. I usually set the boiler supply temp somewhat lower than the boiler max, like 165 vs 176, so it modulates down when it gets near 165, but when there is still a heat call, it will continue right up to 176 and beyond at 30% power, thereby stretching things out. Of course it doesn't have the ooomph that a 176 would have.

Those Euro baro dampers are built so much nicer than the flimsy Fields dampers, but alas, they have no UL listing, which probably explains the scarcity.

 

[NP ALASKA]

The co2 percent comes in with the wood mode and the lambda sensor technology for the gasification process.
i only use to to verify the efficency and quality of burn im getting. Doesnt really come into to play with the pellet equipment really.
What do yiu mean aboutnthe UL thing? I have a UL sticker on my boiler as it was tested back east before distrobution here. Am i misunderstanding things, very well could, i am and security guy that is a back yard mechanic, plumber, carpenter, roofer, equipment oprator, welder, and the list goes on. Expert or engineer at any signle thing I am not))
Hence the shunt valve move, bought the equipment before really understnading it, based on some folks assesssment I have placed my trust in (HANNES & JOHN)

Been about two hours since my boiler shut off, tank temps are 148-178, top and bottom. Its warm this morning 13 above, 4 of 7 zones on house is nice and toasty. The 12" walls help a bunch

 

[NP ALASKA]

http://www.newsminer.com/ne/local_n...cle_0e6654f8-6226-576b-a004-2870890894cb.html

check this out

local build passive solar with a huge tank and runs piping through masonary heater when solar gain isnt great.

i have considered sloar for my tanks, maybe i need to be more serious.

 

[velvetfoot]

What do yiu mean aboutnthe UL thing?

I meant that my euro baro damper doesn't have a UL sticker, and maybe yours doesn't either, and that could be why we can't buy them (even though they are built a lot better than what is available here).

 

[NP ALASKA]

I meant that my euro baro damper doesn't have a UL sticker, and maybe yours doesn't either, and that could be why we can't buy them (even though they are built a lot better than what is available here).

Oh
I get it
Little slow sometimes
Lol

 

[JohnDolz]

Yes I only use the 250 in pellet mode and the 1250 in wood mode. My pellet burner is 30 or 35kw, it runs to the the buffer tank or tanks via my Laddomat. The house draws off the top of the buffer tank or tanks depending on mode I am in.
My boiler runs around 173-180 at the feed rate i have it at. It still runs about 12.5-13 co2 %. the sensor on the top of buffer tells it when to shut off.
it just shut off about 15 minutes ago., even at 30+ below it sbuts off, probably does rjn more feequent though as i load hopper a bit more often

i got the Tigex from Effecta, looked lodally for months and gave up. The US version i was using worked but it didnt seal and we had dust every where to clean up.

i have a 7" into 8" metalbestos. The adapter available had the thing sticking aout 13 to 14 inches over the boiler, didnt like it and made my own.

Regards

Let me know how you make out with the Tigex. I actually capped off my T because of the dust. Our Swedish friend tells me he only sees this dust in low draught situations. I have a Manometer checking my draught and am surprised to see how low it is (so I am better off running capped). I will be curious to see how things look when it gets colder. I'm told there really is no way to increase the draught (I have a 2 1/2 story chimney which I believe should result in a high draught.

 

[NP ALASKA]

Let me know how you make out with the Tigex. I actually capped off my T because of the dust. Our Swedish friend tells me he only sees this dust in low draught situations. I have a Manometer checking my draught and am surprised to see how low it is (so I am better off running capped). I will be curious to see how things look when it gets colder. I'm told there really is no way to increase the draught (I have a 2 1/2 story chimney which I believe should result in a high draught.

Will do; i have 12ft and may add one more section to extend. This will come with the additin of the new boiler room and the move of my equipment out of the garage.

 

[JohnDolz]

Will do; i have 12ft and may add one more section to extend. This will come with the additin of the new boiler room and the move of my equipment out of the garage.

Thanks. I would guess I have at least 30 - 35' of chimney so I am quite surprised. The house chimney has 3 flues, 1 for the fire place, 1 was for the oil burner and a 3rd in the basement that could be used for a wood stove or whatever. I switched to propane a few years ago so the Effects is piped into that. You have any free time coming up? Thinking it could be cheaper to fly you here vs. paying my plumber.

 

[NP ALASKA]

Thanks. I would guess I have at least 30 - 35' of chimney so I am quite surprised. The house chimney has 3 flues, 1 for the fire place, 1 was for the oil burner and a 3rd in the basement that could be used for a wood stove or whatever. I switched to propane a few years ago so the Effects is piped into that. You have any free time coming up? Thinking it could be cheaper to fly you here vs. paying my plumber.

Lol
Back at it Monday, sorry.

 

[huffdawg]

Thanks. I would guess I have at least 30 - 35' of chimney so I am quite surprised. The house chimney has 3 flues, 1 for the fire place, 1 was for the oil burner and a 3rd in the basement that could be used for a wood stove or whatever. I switched to propane a few years ago so the Effects is piped into that. You have any free time coming up? Thinking it could be cheaper to fly you here vs. paying my plumber.

Many factors effect draft . I wonder if it is the multiple flues? Is your house drafty or tight ..and do you have a fresh air intake?You would think a 35' chimney would produce a lot of draft.
And by the way this has been a very educational thread I have quite enjoyed it. It really got me thinking. I was going to start trying some of this stuff but I have two dhw tanks running off my storage and I would have to do quite a lot of plumbing modifications and loot to do it.

 

[JohnDolz]

Many factors effect draft . I wonder if it is the multiple flues? Is your house drafty or tight ..and do you have a fresh air intake?You would think a 35' chimney would produce a lot of draft.
And by the way this has been a very educational thread I have quite enjoyed it. It really got me thinking. I was going to start trying some of this stuff but I have two dhw tanks running off my storage and I would have to do quite a lot of plumbing modifications and loot to do it.

My house was built in 87. I recently had one of those energy inspections and I come in the middle, not super drafty but also not tight as a drum. I do not have a fresh air intake which is one of the reasons I haven't tried to make the house any tighter. As far as multiple flues go, they are completely seperate from each other so I wouldn't think that would have any impact but honestly I have no idea - from what I have been old it is what it is. Luckily it burns at the low end of my target zone; the draft reducer added no value and just contributed t dust/ash getting into the boiler room. Open to suggestions.

I find the conversation interesting as well. As we speak I am testing my propane condensing boiler. I have a Triangle Tubes boiler which was never set up properly (in my opinion). I have recently made some changes to it (confirmed with the Manufacturer's Engineer) which should allow it to run at the 95% efficiency. I have it tied to my storage tanks so if they fall below my setpoint my propane boiler kicks in (in case we are out of town, if I am gone and y wife doesn't feel like setting a fire, etc.). I always run off of the wood so I thought I better actually test this as I am heading out of town and we are heading for single digits. Right now it is 34 degrees outside, the firing temp target is 108 and my house is at 72. The boiler is manufactured in the US but designed in Belgium and can be set up to run off of an outdoor reset with a heatcurve.

 

[JohnDolz]

http://www.newsminer.com/ne/local_n...cle_0e6654f8-6226-576b-a004-2870890894cb.html

check this out

local build passive solar with a huge tank and runs piping through masonary heater when solar gain isnt great.

i have considered sloar for my tanks, maybe i need to be more serious.

Hey Mr. NP Alaska, interesting article. Noticed that his 5,000 gallon main battery stores energy at 130 - 150 degrees. Want to bet he is running 95 degree water through his concrete/radiant heating system? I will be interested to see how low you can go. Keep in mind that he can heat with 130 degree tank because his house is much smaller that yours, his battery is much bigger and he is using the concrete as the heat store/emitter. Had a friend here today that did plumbing for 7 years - he was scratching his head as he saw outdoor temp of 30, indoor temp of 72 and flow temp of 112. For once I did not have to talk, I showed him the #'s and that was that.

 

[TCaldwell]

Ok John, what was your design temp this morning?

 

[JohnDolz]

Ok John, what was your design temp this morning?

By design temp I assume you mean temp set on the heat curve, it was 44C. Interestingly, last night I turn off my wood system. I have my propane boiler tied to my wood system and it is set to kick on once my tank temp drops below a set point. It was originally setup poorly and firing at a set 180 (therefor never condensing or getting the high efficiency). Since I became an "HVAC Expert" this year I decided to tackle the propane boiler. It turns out I had the original version of the software which had a bug causing it to read the wrong outside temp. Over the weekend I installed the new module and completely reprogrammed the boiler to a MUCH more aggressive heat curve. Bottom line in=s my propane boiler was firing at 114F this AM and my house was at 69F. I could still read my flow temp even though I was not using the wood system and it was telling me the flow temp was 40C (4C less than the target on the wood system). I will have to adjust the propane curve a little as there seems to be a difference between the firing temp and what the flow temp actually is at the point that I am measuring it. Once I pick up those 4 Degrees C I imagine my propane boiler will keep my house at the same 72F. Either way I am confident that my pipes won't burst and my family won't die at 69F.

Sorry about the going back and forth between C and F, the Swedish boiler reads things in C and my propane boiler in F, too lazy to convert for you.

I will text you in a minute so you have my cell #. I will have windshield time from 10:30 - 1:30 and then again for a few hours after 4:00, give me a call.

 

[JohnDolz]

Ok John, what was your design temp this morning?

Since I am leaving for a business trip I like to top off the tanks before I go. Just ran down to through a little more wood (Ii had depleted the tanks) and outdoor temp is 20 degrees and the flow temp is at 110 degrees, thermostats set and read at 72.

 

[huffdawg]

Hey Mr. NP Alaska, interesting article. Noticed that his 5,000 gallon main battery stores energy at 130 - 150 degrees. Want to bet he is running 95 degree water through his concrete/radiant heating system? I will be interested to see how low you can go. Keep in mind that he can heat with 130 degree tank because his house is much smaller that yours, his battery is much bigger and he is using the concrete as the heat store/emitter. Had a friend here today that did plumbing for 7 years - he was scratching his head as he saw outdoor temp of 30, indoor temp of 72 and flow temp of 112. For once I did not have to talk, I showed him the #'s and that was that.

I love that whole concept too bad it wasn"t affordable to the average Joe. But I guess in the long run it would pay for it self especially up in the cold winters of alaska. I wonder what it cost?

 

[JohnDolz]

I love that whole concept too bad it wasn"t affordable to the average Joe. But I guess in the long run it would pay for it self especially up in the cold winters of alaska. I wonder what it cost?

Not sure if you are referring to the 5000 gallon.concrete/solar concept or the low flow temp. concept. If it is the low flow temp concept there are external controls that can do this with your existing storage. One of our forum friends is supposed to come by the house this weekend and take a look. I spoke with him and he said he found the equipment online (I didn't ask the price) that will allow him to do this. I think his interest has been sparked. He is running a Garn with 2,000 gallons, I would think any % increase on a battery that large will make a significant impact.

 

[velvetfoot]

John, I have more reading to do, but are your zone pumps running all the time or do they cycle?

 

[JohnDolz]

John, I have more reading to do, but are your zone pumps running all the time or do they cycle?

Ideally running all of the time but realistically they cycle on and off. I always seem to have one zone that requires slightly higher temp than the others. Interestingly now that it has gotten cold, my zones have flipped. Previously the areas with all the glass heated via the sun, now that it is so cold these areas are loosing heat through the glass. Like a ballon, squeeze here - expands there.

 

[NP ALASKA]

Good morning

I will be starting my conversion next weekend. Have a banquet we are running this weekend.
I will post my progress and yes with pics
Thanks

 

[JohnDolz]

Good morning

I will be starting my conversion next weekend. Have a banquet we are running this weekend.
I will post my progress and yes with pics
Thanks

Nice! Just had Tom Caldwell comes for a visit. Great guy, extremely knowledgeable and lives pretty close by (runs a Garn with 2000 gallons). He did his research all week and he says the engineers validated the benefit of this approach. I will let him speak for himself, I imagine he might weigh in or post something at some point. Good luck! By the way I was thinking about that article you linked on passive heating via solar. It mentioned that the owner put the water storage in a closet. Since he has 5000 gallons and it fits in a closet, how big are your houses up there? Shouldn't you be holed up in an igloo?

 

[NP ALASKA]

Nice! Just had Tom Caldwell comes for a visit. Great guy, extremely knowledgeable and lives pretty close by (runs a Garn with 2000 gallons). He did his research all week and he says the engineers validated the benefit of this approach. I will let him speak for himself, I imagine he might weigh in or post something at some point. Good luck! By the way I was thinking about that article you linked on passive heating via solar. It mentioned that the owner put the water storage in a closet. Since he has 5000 gallons and it fits in a closet, how big are your houses up there? Shouldn't you be holed up in an igloo?

Lol

I Have looked and cant locate some interior pics I had. The House was built around this massice cylinder tank and closet doors allow access on 2-3 floors?? For mainteneace and such.
Pretty cool, im keeping this all in mind for the retirement home