storage was dowm to 86 F this morning

[TCaldwell]

Sounds like what heaterman has suggested as well, loop supplying the whole house, panel rads with trv's in each room. My methods are behind the times but work well. I too don't charge the garn past 180-185degf, I have 7 zones ranging from infloor radiant, high output baseboard and regular baseboard. All zones except dwh use grundfos alphas, each zone has been balanced from 1 to 1.5gpm, allowing for long on times.The primary loop circ from the garn to the injection loop shared by the oil boiler delivers 6 gpm. Because i have not seperated dwh, my low water temp for wood changes to the oil boiler at 135degf. I might work on this someday but am slowly trying to integrate more infloor heat. What is different in theory is that the garn holds approx 1900 gal in storage, one supply one return, this is moved between the garn and the fphx with a grundfos 15-58 on low speed. This causes the stratification to happen in a non uniform manner, front to back as well, making it difficult to actually know much charge is left in the battery. By running a seperate tank mix loop whenever the draft inducer is on and or when there is a call for heat at approx 15gpm the tank stays within a few degrees top to bottom, so you know where your at all the time and when you need to fire again. The old 15-58s on the zones would pull 2.5 to 7 gpm per zone, and the primary loop circ at 13gpm, the system runs much smoother now.

 

[JohnDolz]

Sounds like what heaterman has suggested as well, loop supplying the whole house, panel rads with trv's in each room. My methods are behind the times but work well. I too don't charge the garn past 180-185degf, I have 7 zones ranging from infloor radiant, high output baseboard and regular baseboard. All zones except dwh use grundfos alphas, each zone has been balanced from 1 to 1.5gpm, allowing for long on times.The primary loop circ from the garn to the injection loop shared by the oil boiler delivers 6 gpm. Because i have not seperated dwh, my low water temp for wood changes to the oil boiler at 135degf. I might work on this someday but am slowly trying to integrate more infloor heat. What is different in theory is that the garn holds approx 1900 gal in storage, one supply one return, this is moved between the garn and the fphx with a grundfos 15-58 on low speed. This causes the stratification to happen in a non uniform manner, front to back as well, making it difficult to actually know much charge is left in the battery. By running a seperate tank mix loop whenever the draft inducer is on and or when there is a call for heat at approx 15gpm the tank stays within a few degrees top to bottom, so you know where your at all the time and when you need to fire again. The old 15-58s on the zones would pull 2.5 to 7 gpm per zone, and the primary loop circ at 13gpm, the system runs much smoother now.

Your knowledge is far beyond mine but circling back to my comment in an earlier thread I think one of the things most are not doing here in the US is low flow temp (vs,, charging to a lower temperature). I have found that by running my circulators almost continuously with low temperature water I get much longer life out of a tankful of hotwater (low flow temp ends up being different than low tank temp). For example it is 26 degrees this AM and my house is being heated with 113 degree flow water; house is at 72 degrees. I have standard baseboard heaters and in fact I have aftermarket baseboard heater covers that my plumber swears are totally inefficient. My condensing Triangle Tube Propane Boiler is designed to run exactly the same way (unfortunately it was never setup correctly - long story for another day). In fact condensing high-efficiency gas boilers do not condense (and therefore not highly efficient) unless return water temp is under 130 degrees. When I spoke to Triangle Tubes, they confirmed that the Efficiency Rating is derived with test conditions of firing water temp of 140 and return water temp f 120. When I get some time I am going to start a thread on heating with low flow temps, I will be curious to see what the feedback is,. I can only say that for me the low temp is keeping my house plenty warm and I am burning noticeably less wood. Recovering from setback is a different conversation.

 

[maple1]

Yes - but, everyone's distribution system cannot do that. My house can't maintain its temp when the water temps get much below 140 depending how cold it is out. I would need different emitters, or much more baseboard. I have also switched out a 15-58 for an Alpha and reduced flows, which improved things but it is still what it is.

 

[JohnDolz]

You are right in that every house is different. I strongly believed that I needed 145 degree or hotter water but now think differently. Due to a tragic situation with the Effecta dealer in the US I spent many hours working directly with the manufacturer in Sweden. I insisted I needed high water temp and he humored me. At the end he asked me to do him a favor and just try running low water temp, I did and was amazed! What I found is that if I let tank temp run low and try to heat the house it does not work. At that point, I believe that tanks have so little energy in them that they just can't get the flow temp to where it needs to be. I'm no engineer and can't tell you why it is so but I can tell you that it is the case because I see the #'s (I have a temperature sensor on the pipe that carries the flow water so I can always see that temp). I went from thinking I needed 145+ degree water to needing to have my propane boiler heat my DHW because my flow temp is never over 140. In fact, next Saturday, we will be piping in a new DHW loop that is powered by my storage tank. It will have its own mixing valve (also controlled by the boiler) that will mix water hot enough to heat my DHW. This will mean that I need to keep my storage tanks at 140 or higher but that is not the point. The value is realized by only pulling as much hot water off of the top to mix with the return water to reach the desired flow temp - the efficiency is realized whether my tanks are at 180 or at 130. The only difference is that by letting my tanks drop to 120 or so I can start fewer fires (eliminating the waste associated with startup and shutdown). However when I let the temp drop that low I need to add a 1/2 load of wood to get the tanks fully charge so that I can actually start fewer fires. I realize that most folks will disagree with this, but at least according to the folks at Effecta, this is the way that Europe heats - I thought it was tied to the emitters, they tell me no. I had to experience it to believe it....

 

[TCaldwell]

Your knowledge is far beyond mine but circling back to my comment in an earlier thread I think one of the things most are not doing here in the US is low flow temp (vs,, charging to a lower temperature). I have found that by running my circulators almost continuously with low temperature water I get much longer life out of a tankful of hotwater (low flow temp ends up being different than low tank temp). For example it is 26 degrees this AM and my house is being heated with 113 degree flow water; house is at 72 degrees. I have standard baseboard heaters and in fact I have aftermarket baseboard heater covers that my plumber swears are totally inefficient. My condensing Triangle Tube Propane Boiler is designed to run exactly the same way (unfortunately it was never setup correctly - long story for another day). In fact condensing high-efficiency gas boilers do not condense (and therefore not highly efficient) unless return water temp is under 130 degrees. When I spoke to Triangle Tubes, they confirmed that the Efficiency Rating is derived with test conditions of firing water temp of 140 and return water temp f 120. When I get some time I am going to start a thread on heating with low flow temps, I will be curious to see what the feedback is,. I can only say that for me the low temp is keeping my house plenty warm and I am burning noticeably less wood. Recovering from setback is a different conversation.

Btw this is a good thread, I understand you are mixing your design temp on a effecta predetermined curve and running that low flow temp constantly. Because the storage temp is still high during this low temp/low flow I understand how it is different up till design temp equals storage temp and at that point a refire to recover from a setback or just time to burn. When I first set up the garn at our new house 4 years ago, I tried mixing to a design temp of 130, no odr and the higher flow grundfos circs, couldn't keep the house warm, 73 deg. At that point I chalked it up to poor emitters. Theoretically at this point if the garn supply temp reaches 130, with the circ to zone flow rates about 1/2 of what they were before on a day like today as we are only about 45 minutes apart, I should be able to maintain house temp.? Out of curiosity what is the design temp at 15degf outside. If I'm getting this right, Id be willing to test tonight.

 

[JohnDolz]

Btw this is a good thread, I understand you are mixing your design temp on a effecta predetermined curve and running that low flow temp constantly. Because the storage temp is still high during this low temp/low flow I understand how it is different up till design temp equals storage temp and at that point a refire to recover from a setback or just time to burn. When I first set up the garn at our new house 4 years ago, I tried mixing to a design temp of 130, no odr and the higher flow grundfos circs, couldn't keep the house warm, 73 deg. At that point I chalked it up to poor emitters. Theoretically at this point if the garn supply temp reaches 130, with the circ to zone flow rates about 1/2 of what they were before on a day like today as we are only about 45 minutes apart, I should be able to maintain house temp.? Out of curiosity what is the design temp at 15degf outside. If I'm getting this right, Id be willing to test tonight.

Take a look at the link below, it will take you to a PDF for the Effecta Wood boilers. On page 20 you will find some graphs on heat curves. The key is to find the right heat curve for your house. The way to do this is to leave the thermostats high so that the circulator pumps are constantly running. If it is too hot you need a lower curve, if it is too cold you need a higher curve. I use a heat curve of "52", this means at -15 Celsius my flow temp is 52 Celsius.

(broken link removed to http://effecta.se/en/downloads/download-file?path=Product%2Bmanuals%252FEffecta%2BLambda%2B25%2B35%2B60%2BManual.pdf)

Now for some pure speculation, my Effecta has a computer control that runs a motor that is constantly adjusting the mixing/shunt valve based on flow temp readings. The boiler also graphically displays everything including flow temp. When I look at that graph I see constant spikes in flow temp. In Europe they do not use circulator pumps, just run the house on 1 or 2 big loops via a "radiator pump". I am speculating that as my zones kick on and off it changes the temp of the return water and the controller is always chasing it around (I don't think this would happen with just 1 zone). I could test this theory by opening up my thermostats and seeing what happens, may do it one day. In my house, my upstairs is 1 big zone so it needs a little hotter water than my 2-zoned downstairs. I chose a curve that heats my upstairs to desired temp and use my thermostats to keep downstairs from getting too hot. I also have 2 blower heaters (1 being a pretty big Modine hydronic heater) - I would bet when these kick in it drops my return water temp like a stone.

What does all this mean? My speculation if you are trying to set flow temp manually the return water temp keep changing so that flow temp is actually not what you think. Maybe if you set your thermostats really high so all circulators are constantly running you can test this theory.

As far as flow rates go I am completely ignorant, I set my circulators to the lowest possible speed, theory being I want the heat in the water to spend as much time in the heating zones as possible vs. rushing back to my basement to be recharged.

 

[velvetfoot]

circ to zone flow rates about 1/2

May I ask how you are varying these flow rates? I don't recall your design, and I'm in the basement twiddling with pump speeds, looking at boiler& tank temps and boiler modulation %.

 

[JohnDolz]

May I ask how you are varying these flow rates? I don't recall your design, and I'm in the basement twiddling with pump speeds, looking at boiler& tank temps and boiler modulation %.

I am completely ignorant on flow rates, just set my 3 speed pumps to the lowest speed. My thought process is that is I wanted constant flow, I probably wanted slowest speed to get "maximum exposure" - I am NO engineer.

 

[NP ALASKA]

I was struggling to fully understand how this was all gonna work but was willing give it a go as Effecta tells me this how they do it and Johndolz had ahuge hand in with rhe time we have spent on the phone and comparing house sizes and heat sustem designs. His house is a bit bigger than mine but our deleivery systems are very similar.
Any how, this thread has helped me a bunch..thanks guys
Its -2 here this morning, on the warmer side for this time of year
I am very curious to see this will work at our normal 30-40 below??hmmm
And also how it will perform in those periodic 50-60 below times
Man; gotta get my butt in gear

Regards

 

[JohnDolz]

I was struggling to fully understand how this was all gonna work but was willing give it a go as Effecta tells me this how they do it and Johndolz had ahuge hand in with rhe time we have spent on the phone and comparing house sizes and heat sustem designs. His house is a bit bigger than mine but our deleivery systems are very similar.
Any how, this thread has helped me a bunch..thanks guys
Its -2 here this morning, on the warmer side for this time of year
I am very curious to see this will work at our normal 30-40 below??hmmm
And also how it will perform in those periodic 50-60 below times
Man; gotta get my butt in gear

Regards

Other than set the house on fire I have no idea how you stay warm when it is 60 below.

 

[velvetfoot]

each zone has been balanced from 1 to 1.5gpm

May I also ask how you do this?

 

[TCaldwell]

The flow rate of the 15-58 circ on speed1 is about twice the flow rate of the alpha on the lowest fixed speed setting, 5 to 7 watts. I have a insitu btu/flow meter installed at the beginning of the zone supply rack, there is a thermocouple in a well at the end of the return rack. This meter displays supply/return temps, gpm, calculates btu and will total them for a period if you choose. With this it's easy to isolate zones and see what they are doing, my wife bought this for my 50 b-day, its made by omnicon in florida.
John, I will look at the manual, sounds like its a outdoor reset with a adjustable curve, do you keep the thermostats on all the time or set x number of degrees above your 72deg setpoint. My house has large solar gain, I swould think the thermostats would take care of that, as the outside air temp swiing would raise the design water temp.

 

[NP ALASKA]

Other than set the house on fire I have no idea how you stay warm when it is 60 below.

Lol
I have seen negative 82 outside in a packers tent for 12 days. Much younger then and not so brite*****

 

[JohnDolz]

The flow rate of the 15-58 circ on speed1 is about twice the flow rate of the alpha on the lowest fixed speed setting, 5 to 7 watts. I have a insitu btu/flow meter installed at the beginning of the zone supply rack, there is a thermocouple in a well at the end of the return rack. This meter displays supply/return temps, gpm, calculates btu and will total them for a period if you choose. With this it's easy to isolate zones and see what they are doing, my wife bought this for my 50 b-day, its made by omnicon in florida.
John, I will look at the manual, sounds like its a outdoor reset with a adjustable curve, do you keep the thermostats on all the time or set x number of degrees above your 72deg setpoint. My house has large solar gain, I swould think the thermostats would take care of that, as the outside air temp swiing would raise the design water temp.

Yes, it is absolutely an outdoor reset with an adjustable curve - sorry i am talking on 2 threads and forget what I have said were. I get solar gain as well and I simply keep my thermostats at 72. Upstairs never gets all the way there and downstairs is always there - I think I mentioned earlier my upstairs is one big loop so it needs a little higher temp that my lower level which consists of 2 loops. Not sure if there is a way to communicate off of the forum but I am happy to jump on a call and share what little I know. To help keep your wheels spinning the Effecta also work with an Indoor reset, I have mine set in the "Both" mode. This allows me to use Effecta's Energy Saver Mode at night which drops the Indoor Target temp and adjusts the flow temp accordingly for that target. In the morning when it comes out of Energy Saver Mode the Indoor sensor tells the Effecta that the variance in Room Temp vs. Target Temp is too large so it overrides the Outdoor Reset Curve and pushes higher flow temp. Once the Indoor Temp is back in range it gives control back to the Outdoor Reset Curve. My jury is still out on that one, my house takes a lot of energy to recover from a setback. I like the idea of it but I am not sure I am really gaining anything.

 

[JohnDolz]

Lol
I have seen negative 82 outside in a packers tent for 12 days. Much younger then and not so brite*****

Roughing it for me is when the Concierge level at the Marriott is sold out.

 

[JohnDolz]

The flow rate of the 15-58 circ on speed1 is about twice the flow rate of the alpha on the lowest fixed speed setting, 5 to 7 watts. I have a insitu btu/flow meter installed at the beginning of the zone supply rack, there is a thermocouple in a well at the end of the return rack. This meter displays supply/return temps, gpm, calculates btu and will total them for a period if you choose. With this it's easy to isolate zones and see what they are doing, my wife bought this for my 50 b-day, its made by omnicon in florida.
John, I will look at the manual, sounds like its a outdoor reset with a adjustable curve, do you keep the thermostats on all the time or set x number of degrees above your 72deg setpoint. My house has large solar gain, I swould think the thermostats would take care of that, as the outside air temp swiing would raise the design water temp.

Just noticed you are in CT, you are most welcome to come see what I have in action.

 

[NP ALASKA]

The pictures says it all!

I bought this house about 10 years go and struggled through the first bit, oil boiler that is under sized and the house looses temp over days of 30 below and more frequent at colder temps. Went with a central boiler for a time, oh man was i glad i found this site)
Anyhow, the Effecta keeps the house warmer than the oil system ever did. Part of this is the continuous flow i have achieved without the new equipment. The wife is very happy with the outcome which makes me look like a hero

on average currently i deliver 150-173 degree water to the house, she was complaining last night it was too hot
lol
i am hoping to find a solid heat curve that works for the temperature swings we see here.
it can be 30 below in the morning and climb 40-50 degrees during the day

regards

 

[TCaldwell]

John, this week should be a fair test for your setup, I looked at the manual, it states a 25%savings in wood useage with the shunt system. I'd be curious as that's eye catching. I know your busy next weekend, I'll pm you about a field trip to burlington maybe the following weekend if thats good for you. Your always welcome to call me, numbers are in the avatar.

 

[JohnDolz]

I can

John, this week should be a fair test for your setup, I looked at the manual, it states a 25%savings in wood useage with the shunt system. I'd be curious as that's eye catching. I know your busy next weekend, I'll pm you about a field trip to burlington maybe the following weekend if thats good for you. Your always welcome to call me, numbers are in the avatar.

't speak to a percentage but I can tell you my gut says I am definitely not burning as much wood. Last year I was in constant start a fire mode, this year I forget when/if I started a fire. I am around next weekend, work form a home office so when not traveling I am pretty flexible. I will call you later today or at some point tomorrow.

 

[maple1]

May I also ask how you do this?

With an Alpha pump, I just throttle ball valves to each zone. I have no accurate measure of my flows, so can't say what each is flowing though. Seat of pants type stuff here.

I looked at the manual, it states a 25%savings in wood useage with the shunt system.

Wonder what that is compared to exactly? ie., w/o shunt, but keeping tank or supply temps at what temps?

I know I have seen wood savings by simply not charging storage as high, and depleting it until I need more heat - could be a similar type of savings?

The value is realized by only pulling as much hot water off of the top to mix with the return water to reach the desired flow temp - the efficiency is realized whether my tanks are at 180 or at 130. The only difference is that by letting my tanks drop to 120 or so I can start fewer fires (eliminating the waste associated with startup and shutdown). However when I let the temp drop that low I need to add a 1/2 load of wood to get the tanks fully charge so that I can actually start fewer fires.

I think a lot of us are on the same page with all this. Just maybe doing it a bit differently, and some works lower than others due to differences in emitters. In a typical heating day, I'll let storage fully deplete. That means that during the latter stages of that, my zones are in a constant call and flowing constantly, while my storage temps slowly drop. Towards the end, the dt tightens up so that usually by the time I light up, temps will be below what they need to be to maintain house temp, and I'm only seeing maybe a 10° difference in temps between top & bottom. As opposed to maybe as much as 40° earlier in the storage draw. I don't think a shunt setup would help me any - I would still need to light up when my storage gets below a certain point, and that point would be the same, I think. I could actually picture a shunt maybe adding another wrinkle, in that it would maintain stratification maybe too much & I would suddenly not have enough heat in my rads, as opposed to the gradual decline I seem to see. I could be picturing it wrong, but I don't think it would be an advantage. I would also anticipate it would work about the same as having a mixing valve on radiant emitters - just the mixing gets done at a different place. And if you have different emitter requirements in different zones, one might not want all the supply water shunted down at the storage outlet.

Retrofitting to existing emitters that were designed for something different also plays a part. If I was doing my whole system from scratch, I would have different emitters & flow controls, not much question. Not worth rebuilding the enitre system though - adding some emitters, sure thing.

 

[NP ALASKA]

So i have been studying this this afternoon after installing the Tigex draft stabilizer.

The top of my buffer tank is about 165 and my return water from the zones is anout 140, i too am running a grundfoss 26-99 on low.
With the new motorized valve i would only need enough energy to replenish the return water by 25 degrees.
Not bad

Similar to the thoughts of earth shelter homes; a constant 50 means only 20-22 degrees of enrgy required to get to target of 72.

Im hoping I can get this installed this next week, next weekend ia out as I will be helpng with a big banquet here in town for the Quarter Horse Association.

Will report as the project takes shape

 

[velvetfoot]

You mentioned that you're using 250 gallons of buffer for your Effecta. I'm assuming you're not using the 1250 gallons then? My boiler is 15 kW and I think my storage is 108 gal.
The smaller storage tanks with pellet boilers are a different animal than the biggie tanks. I look at them as a way to store excess heat for fewer restarts and to give a head start while the boiler is coming up to heat. Right now, I have about 15 minutes or so of tank heat before it runs out at 120, but I've been keeping it low.

The pellet boilers modulate down (mine goes to 30%), so there's a possibility that it might never shut off where you are, unless you run out of pellets.

It sounds like things are integrated on the Effecta, although I'm not clear on whether it does any actual reset on the boiler temperature, which, since it's non condensing, can only go down so much. It would be nice if it could reduce that somewhat as well as mix down cooler water for the primary loop, or whatever.

I've noted this elsewhere, but on my setup, if the top of my buffer was at 165, and my pellet boiler was running, I can't remove heat from the buffer-it's a one way street. I can only remove heat from the buffer when the boiler isn't running. As I understand it, the longer on time for the boiler the better. I'm trying to figure out something, but the reality is that it might not really be a big problem-it's only a buffer after all.


Somebody asked recently where a similar Euro style baro damper could be purchased. Marc Caluwe, the distributor, supplied the baro damper for my install. Did your supplier also provide the damper or did you get it elsewhere. Maybe I was lucky it plugged into a 6" vent tee:

 

[JohnDolz]

May I also ask how you do this?

With an Alpha pump, I just throttle ball valves to each zone. I have no accurate measure of my flows, so can't say what each is flowing though. Seat of pants type stuff here.

I looked at the manual, it states a 25%savings in wood useage with the shunt system.

Wonder what that is compared to exactly? ie., w/o shunt, but keeping tank or supply temps at what temps?

I know I have seen wood savings by simply not charging storage as high, and depleting it until I need more heat - could be a similar type of savings?

The value is realized by only pulling as much hot water off of the top to mix with the return water to reach the desired flow temp - the efficiency is realized whether my tanks are at 180 or at 130. The only difference is that by letting my tanks drop to 120 or so I can start fewer fires (eliminating the waste associated with startup and shutdown). However when I let the temp drop that low I need to add a 1/2 load of wood to get the tanks fully charge so that I can actually start fewer fires.

I think a lot of us are on the same page with all this. Just maybe doing it a bit differently, and some works lower than others due to differences in emitters. In a typical heating day, I'll let storage fully deplete. That means that during the latter stages of that, my zones are in a constant call and flowing constantly, while my storage temps slowly drop. Towards the end, the dt tightens up so that usually by the time I light up, temps will be below what they need to be to maintain house temp, and I'm only seeing maybe a 10° difference in temps between top & bottom. As opposed to maybe as much as 40° earlier in the storage draw. I don't think a shunt setup would help me any - I would still need to light up when my storage gets below a certain point, and that point would be the same, I think. I could actually picture a shunt maybe adding another wrinkle, in that it would maintain stratification maybe too much & I would suddenly not have enough heat in my rads, as opposed to the gradual decline I seem to see. I could be picturing it wrong, but I don't think it would be an advantage. I would also anticipate it would work about the same as having a mixing valve on radiant emitters - just the mixing gets done at a different place. And if you have different emitter requirements in different zones, one might not want all the supply water shunted down at the storage outlet.

Retrofitting to existing emitters that were designed for something different also plays a part. If I was doing my whole system from scratch, I would have different emitters & flow controls, not much question. Not worth rebuilding the enitre system though - adding some emitters, sure thing.

Thanks for the good comments and info. To me the the fact that you are running your tanks so low means you are actually leveraging some of the benefit of heating with lower temp water and more of a constant flow. I like to think of it is setting cruise control at the most efficient, yet effective speed and just letting it do its thing. I think of thermostats and high water temp as the equivalent of stomping on the gas and then coasting - doing it over and over again. Both approaches will get you down the highway....

Like I said I am no engineer but I do not think the difference in top and bottom tank temp matter in this case. The shunt limits the amount of water being drawn from the tank (I think of the tank as a rechargeable battery - so pulling as little energy as possible from it extends battery life). As far as you suddenly not having enough heat to warm the house, not sure how different it would be but I have never had to worry about it, I have always started a new fire in plenty of time or worst case I just see the house temp drift down a degree or two.

Yes you will still need to start a fire at the same point. The difference should be the # of hours before you need to start that fire - assuming this works for you the # of hours between fires should increase.

As far as retrofitting all emitters, I agree that is a crazy undertaking. I understand every house is different and I imagine there are some circumstances where there are so many different emitters that this makes no sense. For me I have mostly baseboard heaters - the twist is that upstairs is 1 loop and downstairs is 2 loops. I also have 2 hydronic/blower heaters. I chose a heat curve that works for my "weakest" emitter system and then use my thermostats to keep the other areas from being too hot. If you get a chance to take a look at that manual it talks about different heat curves and how to find one that works for you (choosing the right heat curve for each individual house is key - there is no single curve / temp that works for everyone).

Can't speak to radiant emitters with mixing valves as I don't really know much about them. My immediate question would be hw does each mixing valve know what temp to mix to? The mixing valve I am talking about is tied to an outdoor reset which constantly changes desired flow temp (as per the heat curve) to accommodate for changes in outdoor temp.

I guess I will bottom line this with my "seat of pants" assessment - I know I am going much longer between firings. Didn't measure it but last year I was always running downstairs to check tank temp, this year I barely think about it.

 

[maple1]

Last winter with my bit of a change in burning habits (not running storage as hot), I was only burning for about 6 hours a day mid-winter. I have other variables too, like each year trying to improve the quality of my wood. The first year with my gasifier I had some that wasn't seasoned as good as it should have been, then by the end of winter I had no wood left at all due to other circumstances (the reserve was needed elsewhere). So the couple of years after that, I was burning a lot of poor quality (but that I could dry in a hurry) wood - mostly spruce windfall stuff with some white birch scattered in that I could get dry in a hurry. This winter I have more good hardwood, next should be even better.

So, I am able to go quite a while between burns. Usually the fire is out when I'm going to bed, and I don't light again until late afternoon the next day. Or thereabouts. Since I am here by myself most weekdays and 3/4 of the house isn't being used, I set back some to coast me until I light, then I am pulling max heat off the boiler when it is burning again. The house recovers pretty quick - another benefit of excess emitters. At least, excess as they were originally designed for - hot oil boiler water.

There is one key thing for me that would present an issue with programming a heat curve or using ODR to maintain my house temps - the wind effect. Our two storey house is on an open hilltop, and although it is pretty tight for what it is (conventional 20 year old building tech), we get more heat loss from more wind than we do from colder temps. So unless the heat curve or ODR could factor in wind speed (and also sunshine as we get decent solar gain as well), it would still be limited in how well it could really work. I think.

 

[JohnDolz]

Last winter with my bit of a change in burning habits (not running storage as hot), I was only burning for about 6 hours a day mid-winter. I have other variables too, like each year trying to improve the quality of my wood. The first year with my gasifier I had some that wasn't seasoned as good as it should have been, then by the end of winter I had no wood left at all due to other circumstances (the reserve was needed elsewhere). So the couple of years after that, I was burning a lot of poor quality (but that I could dry in a hurry) wood - mostly spruce windfall stuff with some white birch scattered in that I could get dry in a hurry. This winter I have more good hardwood, next should be even better.

So, I am able to go quite a while between burns. Usually the fire is out when I'm going to bed, and I don't light again until late afternoon the next day. Or thereabouts. Since I am here by myself most weekdays and 3/4 of the house isn't being used, I set back some to coast me until I light, then I am pulling max heat off the boiler when it is burning again. The house recovers pretty quick - another benefit of excess emitters. At least, excess as they were originally designed for - hot oil boiler water.

There is one key thing for me that would present an issue with programming a heat curve or using ODR to maintain my house temps - the wind effect. Our two storey house is on an open hilltop, and although it is pretty tight for what it is (conventional 20 year old building tech), we get more heat loss from more wind than we do from colder temps. So unless the heat curve or ODR could factor in wind speed (and also sunshine as we get decent solar gain as well), it would still be limited in how well it could really work. I think.

Sounds like things are working well enough for you. As you know we can spend thousands of $'s to save pennies. So if you want to burn some cash, my Effecta has an Indoor Room Sensor as well as an outdoor sensor - this would take care of your wind issue (and sun as well). While the outdoor reset is controlling the flow temperature, the Indoor Room Sensor is monitoring room temp. If Room Temp varies from target (either +/-) it overrides the outdoor control and adjusts flow temperature until the room is back in the target zone, at that point it gives control back to the outdoor sensor. To that point I need to meet a friend shortly that will help me create a DHW loop so that I can heat my DHW with my thermal storage (current flow temp is too low to heat DHW). I am sure I will spend many hundreds $'s to make sure I don't spend $10 on propane to heat my DHW.