Purchase made - Froling S3 with dual 240 gal Storage

[Newfiestang]

Did you get input on piping from the dealer?

Yes somewhat, that drawing kind of started as a standard dealer piping design and we both then modified it from there. I've done all the latest changes in ACAD putting components in the actual positions as they will be piped when its "as built".

 

[Newfiestang]

5 to - 10 describes this winter here perfectly. The avg over night low has been - 6 to - 8C

I'm heating roughly 1500sq feet to 22C on the main level of the house with 1000sq ft left unheated on the second level. Plus a 500sqft detached shop where the boiler and storage live. The 1500sqft is primarily heated via water to air heat exchanger operating around a 45* delta t

For storage I have two 500gallon propane tanks installed vertically and plumbed in parallel. During the shoulder seasons I valve one off and just use one 500 gallon as DHW becomes half the load.

( forgive the switch to Fahrenheit. I always think of heating systems in Fahrenheit)
My routine looks like this: come home at 5 p.m. Top of storage is at 110 or 140*F. The rest of the tank is at 100-110. I ballpark my storage hitting 110* water between 3:30-6pm ( I can still heat the house comfortably off of this for another 16 hours) I make a fire at 5pm typical output temp is 150-160. Around 7-8pm I'll fill it again this will bring me to roughly 3:30pm any wood added after this will carry me past 3:30pm. Also this is 80-90% softwood. Hardwood would have me sail past 5pm.

With your system I suspect (I'm not an expert just my opinion) you will find you make a fire in the morning that will heat all day. If you keep it going by the time storage is charged I don't think that will quite carry you all night. A lot of variables there. The other scenario is making fire in the morning that will heat the house all day and let it go out . Then in the afternoon make a second fire, that one you keep going and will charge the storage carrying you overnight.

( also this is all assuming you don't let the boiler idle trying to obtain maximum efficiency) oh and if you wood is dry it takes me 5-10mins tops, to make a fire and walk away.

Last thing. I'm trying not to be too long winded. You have me intrigued about 500 gallons of storage. One of the reasons I parallelled my system is if a tank develops a leak, I can valve it Off. As a test I think I'm going to setup some trends on the tank storage and valve one tank off to see what 500 gallons of storage does for me. I'll post the results on here once I get them.

Ok well thats good info on your times. I know i dont have your storage capacity but it gives me some idea on what to expect. As i mentioned in the beginning I have no issue doing two fires a day, I'm basically doing about 5 a day right now and still cant get past 3am after filling at 11:30 PM or so.

I figure if I do one in the morning and another at 10 PM or so I should get to morning again. The house is about 18 years old and built be myself and is insulated well and do keep heat quite well for the size. I dont even mind have to add some wood during the day to be honest but right now its a constant battle keeping wood to the old boiler and if two of the larger zones (living Room and Basement) call for heat the same time it pretty much pulls down the temp to where the oil will take over for a bit. Very frustrating.

 

[Newfiestang]

The tough part with your setup is the the fin type baseboards. Do you happen to know if they are oversized for the rooms at all? Also what is the current operating temperature that you would typically get comfortable heat out of the system.

Yes pretty much all rooms have more than the recommended linear ft of heater.

I run the wood boiler at about 190 deg F

The oil boiler takes over at 165 def F. When on oil its low high setpoints are 160 -180 deg F.

 

[Newfiestang]

You might find that to be holding you back when it comes to time between burns, especially with that amount of storage (on the small side). Any chance of adding more of it, or maybe some cast iron rads in spots?

Yes i expect it will be the limiting factory only having 500 gal but i only have about 50 gal now lol between the oil and wood boilers combined.

There is no chance of more storage, just donw have the space, im pushing it now getting all this new stuff into that room.

Yes I guess I could add cast iron rads, do they still make a baseboard style, never really thought of that. Dont think the wife would go for those big stand up units lol, even though i like them.

 

[chew72]

This will be such a game changer for you. I grew up with just a wood stove. If you wanted heat you made a fire. The living room was wonderfully warm. The rest of the house, cold. Then after moving out dad installs a new yorker wood boiler. The house is warm but your babysitting the boiler (softwood) Dad however enjoys sitting by the boiler. Me I have 3 small kids so no time. The fact I can stuff 5 cubic ft of wood in there then walk away is amazing. Come out a few hours later and stog it full again!

 

[Sparky978]

The DHW tank is what was recommended by Boithermic here in Canada, the Froling dealer. Its made by a Canadian company I think, Thermo2000. Its an indirect DHW heater thats very efficient with very fast recovery times.

I have a 119 gal. Thermo2000 for my pellet boiler/oil boiler set up. I will agree the recovery times are very fast. It's an expensive tank but it is a well made and high quality. I think you will be happy with it.

 

[Newfiestang]

Very Nice. What type of pipe insulation is that. Im a long way from that stage but I will be insulating boiler room pipes for sure at some point. And I will need to do the same to the storage tanks.

 

[Sparky978]

It is commercial grade fiberglass with kraft paper outer jacket. The elbows are a preformed pvc that come in various sizes and just wrap around the insulation.
Good luck with your project.

 

[velvetfoot]

That insulation looks awesome. Mine is I think neoprene.
I put a foam hat on my similar sized Froling buffer/dhw tank.
I put an electronic controlled mixing valve on the buffer tank to keep the water temp high going to the distribution system, with the excess heat going into storage. It works but I've never tried to quantify it.

 

[Newfiestang]

That insulation looks awesome. Mine is I think neoprene.
I put a foam hat on my similar sized Froling buffer/dhw tank.
I put an electronic controlled mixing valve on the buffer tank to keep the water temp high going to the distribution system, with the excess heat going into storage. It works but I've never tried to quantify it.

View attachment 274982

Velvetfoot, do you have a piping diagram for your system, curious to what it looks like as i see you have an oil fired boiler in the system as well.

 

[velvetfoot]

Here's one. Without that mixing valve I was talking about. Also, I'm not sure why I had the spirovent at the buffer tank. I added another one close to where the oil boiler tees in. (I was having problems with air).

Post Your Piping Diagrams

1. The DHW coil is a fairly large indirect coil like you would find in a boiler and is big enough to supply hot water for laundry and a shower simultaneously. But I take the output of the DHW coil through a Taco 5000 series mixing valve configured as a diverter valve where the output goes to...

www.hearth.com

Here's some stuff on that mixing valve.

Using Mixing Valve on Tank to Maximize Buffer Use and Pellet Boiler Runtime

Something that ticks me off is when the pellet boiler is running and one or no zones are on, the flow is to the buffer tank. This means that very cool water is returning to the boiler and the protection valve comes into play, big time. Meanwhile, the boiler, which modulates down to 30%, is...

www.hearth.com

 

[hyfire]

What are you using for air elimator caleffi discal or sprivovent?

 

[Newfiestang]

What are you using for air elimator caleffi discal or sprivovent?

Caleffi Discal.

 

[hyfire]

Caleffi Discal.

Ok try and get it pretty close to the boiler outlet as feasible with some isolation valves for maintance. Also you still should use a siprotop vent at the top of the tank.

 

[Newfiestang]

Ok try and get it pretty close to the boiler outlet as feasible with some isolation valves for maintance. Also you still should use a siprotop vent at the top of the tank.

Thats where its shown in the dwg but I was actually thinking about moving it to just before the suction of the heating zone pump in my dwg, figured that way all heating sources would be feeding it and not just the wood boiler as it is shown now. Thoughts?

Also, each tank will be fitted with Auto air vent as well as other locations as well such as the supply and return manifolds. Should be fine hey?

5020 MINICAL - Automatic air vent 3/8" M e 1/2" M | Caleffi International

 

[hyfire]

Thats where its shown in the dwg but I was actually thinking about moving it to just before the suction of the heating zone pump in my dwg, figured that way all heating sources would be feeding it and not just the wood boiler as it is shown now. Thoughts?

Also, each tank will be fitted with Auto air vent as well as other locations as well such as the supply and return manifolds. Should be fine hey?

5020 MINICAL - Automatic air vent 3/8" M e 1/2" M | Caleffi International

You would probably still would be putting alot micobubbles in the 1 st tank. Ultimate is to use another at the oil boiler. Those vents are fine but you maybe want to put ball valves ahead of them for maintenance purposes.

 

[chew72]

Here's one. Without that mixing valve I was talking about. Also, I'm not sure why I had the spirovent at the buffer tank. I added another one close to where the oil boiler tees in. (I was having problems with air).

Post Your Piping Diagrams

1. The DHW coil is a fairly large indirect coil like you would find in a boiler and is big enough to supply hot water for laundry and a shower simultaneously. But I take the output of the DHW coil through a Taco 5000 series mixing valve configured as a diverter valve where the output goes to...

www.hearth.com

Here's some stuff on that mixing valve.

Using Mixing Valve on Tank to Maximize Buffer Use and Pellet Boiler Runtime

Something that ticks me off is when the pellet boiler is running and one or no zones are on, the flow is to the buffer tank. This means that very cool water is returning to the boiler and the protection valve comes into play, big time. Meanwhile, the boiler, which modulates down to 30%, is...

www.hearth.com

When you first fire the system or if it's been sitting cold all summer the colder water holds onto more dissolved gasses. So typically the source of heat for the system is where the gasses and air will start to come out of solution.

I'd also put it just before the main circulator for the zones as that circulator will see the most run time and have the most water run through it.

It sounds like you have the right idea putting air eliminators on the storage tanks if you not pulling water from the tippy top. As well as your DHW tank. On my system the mistake was not having any air vents on the hot water bypass loop for cold water protection. The hot supply pipe went up 3' off the boiler. The bypass Teed off of this horizontally for 5' then down to the cold water protection. On my first fire all the air coming out got trapped in that horizontal run. I had to keep shutting off the boiler circ to allow the air to go up that 3' pipe to the vent. I ended up replacing the 90 that went down to the cold water protection and put a T in with an air vent.

 

[Newfiestang]

You would probably still would be putting alot micobubbles in the 1 st tank. Ultimate is to use another at the oil boiler. Those vents are fine but you maybe want to put ball valves ahead of them for maintenance purposes.

I have this old one is the existing system, guess i could use it off the oil boiler and the new Discal off the wood boiler? Of course i will install a new vent on it and clean it up.

 

[Newfiestang]

When you first fire the system or if it's been sitting cold all summer the colder water holds onto more dissolved gasses. So typically the source of heat for the system is where the gasses and air will start to come out of solution.

I'd also put it just before the main circulator for the zones as that circulator will see the most run time and have the most water run through it.

It sounds like you have the right idea putting air eliminators on the storage tanks if you not pulling water from the tippy top. As well as your DHW tank. On my system the mistake was not having any air vents on the hot water bypass loop for cold water protection. The hot supply pipe went up 3' off the boiler. The bypass Teed off of this horizontally for 5' then down to the cold water protection. On my first fire all the air coming out got trapped in that horizontal run. I had to keep shutting off the boiler circ to allow the air to go up that 3' pipe to the vent. I ended up replacing the 90 that went down to the cold water protection and put a T in with an air vent.

Ok makes sense. My highest point will be the supply and return manifolds so thats where i currently have air vents on the old system. Seems to work, i rarely get air out in the zones. Having the vents on these, on both tanks and DHW heater, along with the air separators off each boiler supply piping should take care of the air im hoping. I will update the dwg in a few days to get everyone's thoughts. Appreciate all the feedback here.....thanks

 

[hyfire]

Make sure its in good shape they could get clogged up wth dirt if its really old. I still suggest you put a dirtcal in the system or dirt mag, last thing you want is dirt your brand new s3.

 

[Newfiestang]

Whats everyone's thoughts on the Nibco valves?

NIBCO BRONZE BALL VALVE,SWEAT,1 IN - Ball Valves - WWG41E345 | S58570 1 - Grainger, Canada

 

[hyfire]

Not sure on the valves for quality vs cost but grainger is a reputable company. Back to your project your expansion tank prpbably needs a 1" npt where do you intend to plumb it?

 

[chew72]

Not sure on the valves for quality vs cost but grainger is a reputable company. Back to your project your expansion tank prpbably needs a 1" npt where do you intend to plumb it?

Has 1" npt, doesn't need 1" npt. The volume of flow is very low. I did mine with 3/4 just for physical strength. Good point on where to plumb it though. It's shown on the supply side of the boiler. This is probably ok but my understanding is it should be on you lowest blue line shown. The best practice is for pumps to pump away from your expansion tank. If they pump towards it you loose the pressure the circulator was developing and instead of pushing the water it's kinda sucking it. This is only a problem if it causes cavitation, but it's more likely under those circumstances.

Also do you have any plumbing wholesalers in your area? I'd say At least 25-40% of the time they are good about your avg Joe coming in to buy things and will give you a fair price along with the time of day. Plus I find quality tends to meet a minimum standard.

 

[Newfiestang]

Has 1" npt, doesn't need 1" npt. The volume of flow is very low. I did mine with 3/4 just for physical strength. Good point on where to plumb it though. It's shown on the supply side of the boiler. This is probably ok but my understanding is it should be on you lowest blue line shown. The best practice is for pumps to pump away from your expansion tank. If they pump towards it you loose the pressure the circulator was developing and instead of pushing the water it's kinda sucking it. This is only a problem if it causes cavitation, but it's more likely under those circumstances.

Also do you have any plumbing wholesalers in your area? I'd say At least 25-40% of the time they are good about your avg Joe coming in to buy things and will give you a fair price along with the time of day. Plus I find quality tends to meet a minimum standard.

As per the dwg I was planning on plumbing the make up water and expansion tank plumbing to the Discal 1/2" drain port as shown. And this was following the pump away strategy if im correct? Main heating circ will be pumping away at this point.

Actually here is an updated dwg which better details the actual plumbing as components will laid out in my room. The main horizontal header will run between the supply manifold to first tank.

 

[Newfiestang]

Make sure its in good shape they could get clogged up wth dirt if its really old. I still suggest you put a dirtcal in the system or dirt mag, last thing you want is dirt your brand new s3.

True, where would be a good place to plum it in.