Purchase made - Froling S3 with dual 240 gal Storage

[Newfiestang]

Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.

Thats what i thought as well.

 

[Newfiestang]

Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.

And until both wood boiler and storage have reached setpoints programmed in Froling the system is still on oil as well.

But i like the different viewpoints, it makes me think towards potential problems with the system, thats what this is all about.

I do think i will put a zone valve in on the DHW piping somewhere to minimize the ghost flow there as i can see this as a definite possibility. Right now my simple fix for this is to use a 120VAC zone valve so I can have it open or close with the DHW circulator which is power and controlled by the Froling. Plan would be to have it located very close to pump for ease of wiring from a close by junction box supplying both.

Does this sound ok.

 

[hyfire]

Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.

So if the tanks are cold and the wood boiler kicks in the way he has it piped i the load won't pull from the cooler tank and the boiler feed at the same time and mix the temp in anyway? I cant see it happening this way.

 

[chew72]

It depends on flow. From cold my tanks are at 80F so my boiler is putting out 2.5 to 3 gpm of 160F hot water. The typical cold temp of my storage is 110F so that's more like 5gpm of 160F But yes if he is using more water than what the boiler can supply cold storage water will mix.

 

[maple1]

So if the tanks are cold and the wood boiler kicks in the way he has it piped i the load won't pull from the cooler tank and the boiler feed at the same time and mix the temp in anyway? I cant see it happening this way.

Not going back to look. My loading unit (boiler circ) pumps faster than my load circ. So no, not a concern in my simple and well working system. Honestly I see a lot of over complications in some setups. Or they are in my mind. Not saying that is the case here - too lazy right now to go look and I'm barely awake.

 

[hyfire]

I guess it all depends on flow rates like you said, here is a nice article on some 2 pipe setups and some rules to look at for piping.
https://www.pmmag.com/articles/100544-the-finer-points-of-applying-a-2-pipe-buffer-tank

 

[hyfire]

I guess it all depends on flow rates like you said, here is a nice article on some 2 pipe setups and some rules to look at for piping.
https://www.pmmag.com/articles/100544-the-finer-points-of-applying-a-2-pipe-buffer-tank

I would say to use a 1.5" header at the tank connections.

 

[chew72]

In case your interested in what the profile of the S30 to 500 gallons of storage looks like with almost no load. We're out of the cold days here now so it's not very helpful on the load side. The little spikes at the end seem to be the unit shutting down, and the spike is the circ kicking on for 5min due to the heat from the coal bed.

 

[hyfire]

What kind of software is that, i will have multiple tanks as well might be a good idea to have info like that.

 

[chew72]

It's a weintek HMI combined with an Allen-Bradley, Micro 800 series PLC. If you can understand ladder logic and have a bit of electrical experience it's certainly achievable.

Having burned this winter to me the minimum amount of information I would like to have is knowing the temperature of the next 500 gallons available to the boiler. In the case of a single 500 gallon tank that would just be the top and bottom temp. My 1000 gallons that would be top bottom and middle. That allows me to ballpark whether I load the boiler full again or not.

The midpoint temperature on the top half is helpful for knowing do I make a fire when I get home or can I wait till after supper and the kids are in bed. The bottom midpoint temperature doesn't provide as much useful information. It's more for balance and Feng shui.

If you'd like any more detail or had questions maybe post to my install thread Here to keep me from taking over this one

 

[Newfiestang]

Well been a while but construction has started. The old unit and all piping is removed and so far the Turbomax DHW boiler and main pipe runs around the boiler room are ran. So far so good. Next is the storage tanks and their piping. Will post more pics as the project progresses.

Also attached below is a few screeshots of the latest 3D Cad dwgs. This is now exactly how the system will be piped. Pretty similar to the original dwgs earlier in this thread but i did make some additions to prevent potential ghost flows to the DHW boiler as well as through the Froling. To prevent those ghost flows i added Caleffi differential pressure reducing valves which are adjustable.

 

[Newfiestang]

Latest 3D Cad dwg

 

[Newfiestang]

System fired for apprx 3 months now, very happy with the results so far, working like a charm and getting approx 12 to 20 hrs from a fully charged buffer. Im very pleased with those results considering its only 500 gal and im coming from an old boiler with no storage. Short video below of the gasification three mins after a light.

Thanks for all that helped and for those looking for any info or help I guess i can now add some input considering my install was a success from the first light. Only thing i am adding is a Tekmar 150 to help with an overheat situation. That will be done in next few weeks.

 

[Smoothride]

Newfiestang,
What is your overheating issue? Do you have a dump zone for excess boiler heat? Are you trying to force a zone to come on to remove excess boiler heat?

 

[Newfiestang]

Newfiestang,
What is your overheating issue? Do you have a dump zone for excess boiler heat? Are you trying to force a zone to come on to remove excess boiler heat?

Its odd but the S3 alone dont have controls to work with a dump zone.

This is not a common issue for me but occasionally with buffer tanks fully charged and some fire left, the boiler has nowhere to use its heat output if house not calling thus the boiler heats up quickly and goes into protection mode. My plan now is use a Tekmar 150 and have its dry contacts wired in parallel with my my basement zone thermostat to initiate starting of the heating circ and open that zone valve at the set temperature programmed in the Tekmar. This was always the plan but only now getting to installing it.

Also, I still dont have the over temp battery (copper coil) hooked up yet that comes standard with the Froling S3. This is a last defense device that is basically a mechanical thermostatic valve installed on the inlet to the coil designed to open on boiler high temp and allow town/well water to flow through boiler to cool it.

 

[hyfire]

How about some fin tube pipes and a n.c solenoid above the boiler. If you have a power failure you could be in real trouble.

 

[Newfiestang]

How about some fin tube pipes and a n.c solenoid above the boiler. If you have a power failure you could be in real trouble.

Yes that would work as well, had that setup with my old system but i rather have the heat dump in my basement. I have a backup generator for power loss so my main concern now is overheating solution.

 

[Bad LP]

Yes that would work as well, had that setup with my old system but i rather have the heat dump in my basement. I have a backup generator for power loss so my main concern now is overheating solution.

That’s what I did. Powered heat dump in the basement on a Modine and a loss of power heat dump into a bunch of floor joist mounted 3/4 fin.
I was working on the system when the power went out. Watched right from the drivers seat the full safety thing work and the the auto standby generator start and the boiler went back into normal.

 

[Smoothride]

Newfiestang,
I used an aqua stat off one of the boiler jacket wells in the left rear top of the boiler. I have that hooked to a simple zone controller and it is piped in parallel with my no power dump zone. the supply off the top of the boiler has an Automag and then it goes to the radiators. The return has a split return near the bottom of the boiler with one leg having a circulator pump for the over heat and the other leg has an Automag that opens for thermo syphon in the event of a power outage.

 

[OffGridICF]

@Newfiestang - wow, another great thread on boiler installation!

I'm gradually sneaking up on a similar Froling install. The plan is to use three 192 gallon propane tanks and one 250 gallon propane tank for storage. Since they are not all the same size it seems like putting them in series will work best. The piping will be 1 1/4" to/from the boiler. The main concern at this point is related the effect on stratification if the new ports on the tanks are 1 1/4". The new tank fittings could be increased to 2" with a short piece of 2" pipe or a 2" elbow as a header if it makes sense.

Maybe I missed it earlier in your thread, but I'm still wondering:

1. What size piping did you end up with going to your storage? Did you increase the port size into the storage tanks?
2. Have you been able to tell anything about stratification in your series tanks?
3. What CAD tool are you using?

 

[Newfiestang]

@Newfiestang - wow, another great thread on boiler installation!

I'm gradually sneaking up on a similar Froling install. The plan is to use three 192 gallon propane tanks and one 250 gallon propane tank for storage. Since they are not all the same size it seems like putting them in series will work best. The piping will be 1 1/4" to/from the boiler. The main concern at this point is related the effect on stratification if the new ports on the tanks are 1 1/4". The new tank fittings could be increased to 2" with a short piece of 2" pipe or a 2" elbow as a header if it makes sense.

Maybe I missed it earlier in your thread, but I'm still wondering:

1. What size piping did you end up with going to your storage? Did you increase the port size into the storage tanks?
2. Have you been able to tell anything about stratification in your series tanks?
3. What CAD tool are you using?

The pipe size is 1" copper throughout the whole system with 2" connections at buffer tanks. I used 2" black iron elbows there adapted to 2" copper pipe for a few inches then reduced down to 1" to tie into system pipe. My tanks are a factory buffer tank ASME certified and came with 2" nozzle entries for system connection and also 1" nozzle connections for the four RTD's for temp measurement. In those I installed four 1" thermowells that accept the RTD probes.

Yes i can see stratification taking place every time i charge the tanks, pic below to illustrate. This is the graphic display from the Froling connect online portal which i can view anywhere in the world as long as i have internet connection. In pic below the wood boiler is long gone out and house is pulling from storage. The graphic is not 100% accurate as i have two tanks piped in series, the top two temps below is tank #1, the bottom two temps are tank #2. You will see the bottom temp sensor in tank two is at 124 deg as its the first sensor to see colder return water from zones.

I think if you use propane tanks they will need to be positioned vertically to achieve good stratification....at least that is my understanding.

I used AutoCAD 2022, it has both 2D and 3D layouts. I was fortunate enough to have experience with Acad and my work has business license so was able to take advantage of that. Otherwise Acad is very expensive.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any further questions. This is the second winter with my system and i couldnt be more pleased with how it turned out. I can say now that my design is proven to work well so i dont mind recommending my design.

 

[fontenoy]

Well folks after a lot of reading and pondering over the last three years i finally made this large purchase. I will be starting this build in late spring or early summer and will try my best to post the steps along the way. I will be doing this build myself so im sure i will look here for guidance from time to time, hope you will join me, very excited to get this system installed for the next heating season.

I've posted the piping diagram below, if you see anything that dont look right or can be improved please dont hesitate to comment.

View attachment 274276

 

[fontenoy]

Well folks after a lot of reading and pondering over the last three years i finally made this large purchase. I will be starting this build in late spring or early summer and will try my best to post the steps along the way. I will be doing this build myself so im sure i will look here for guidance from time to time, hope you will join me, very excited to get this system installed for the next heating season.

I've posted the piping diagram below, if you see anything that dont look right or can be improved please dont hesitate to comment.

Well folks after a lot of reading and pondering over the last three years i finally made this large purchase. I will be starting this build in late spring or early summer and will try my best to post the steps along the way. I will be doing this build myself so im sure i will look here for guidance from time to time, hope you will join me, very excited to get this system installed for the next heating season.

I've posted the piping diagram below, if you see anything that dont look right or can be improved please dont hesitate to comment.

View attachment 274276

how is the boiler working out I just ordered 1 yesterday

View attachment 274276