Progress operation??????

[Ashful]

Even when operating in CAT mode only people should have some flames correct? Every 15 or 30 seconds you get a burst. A complete black box seems wrong to me.

If cat is in active region (i.e. above 500F on exhaust side of combustor), then it doesn't matter much what's happening in the firebox, with regard to flames. As long as you have enough wood gas coming off that smouldering load in the firebox to keep your cat combustor active, you will have heat and a clean flue. Creosote only happens when your reburn system fails to operate, either due to wood with too much moisture, or a burn rate too low to keep the reburn system active. On a catalytic stove, this burn rate can be so low that it is indeed a black box with no flame. On my BK's, it's normal to think they've gone out when walking past them on the lowest setting, until you note that the cat is running 1000F.

 

[Woody Stover]

I find when I choke the air all the way down I can accomplish a lazy fire but stove top temps stay below 450 and I end up with large black chunks of coal. I don't have much experience with cleaning my liner but when I tried this operation style I had lots of creosote. Last year I made an effort to burn with the air slightly more open. Hotter stove temps, nice gray powdery ash at completion and hardly any creosote. I would love to learn how to increase my burn time but the pros outweigh the cons for me right now.

Creosote only happens when your reburn system fails to operate, either due to wood with too much moisture, or a burn rate too low to keep the reburn system active. On a catalytic stove, this burn rate can be so low that it is indeed a black box with no flame. On my BK's, it's normal to think they've gone out when walking past them on the lowest setting, until you note that the cat is running 1000F.

Sounds like Berner's wood might not be completely dry; Shouldn't be leaving big chunks of coal unless, as you say, the stove/cat is crashing from the air being cut too far. Maybe a draft issue? On a 16' liner I could run the Fireview with the air cut almost all the way, like 0.2 of possible 4.0 air setting, have no flame in the box, yet the cat remained active and the load burned to ash, or a couple small coal chunks.

 

[fire_man]

If i am going for pure max burn time/low steady heat then i shut air all the way after the load has charred up a bit. It is indeed a black box for up to 18hrs. Sometimes i will occasionally ger a burst of secondaries. Like maybe 1-3 times an hour after the first 2-3 hours.

TheRambler: What is your flue height? Interior or Exterior? It's amazing to me you can operate the Progress with no flames for almost the entire burn with no backpuffing.

Usually the Progress will fire the secondaries after the cat gets really hot - and even if you cut the air down completely they won't shut down. Are your split sizes enormous?

 

[georgepds]

You're missing point. I'm talking about energy storage, and whether an extra 200 lb of stove makes any difference in how long your living space stays warm, after the short burn time of that PH lets you down. In that equation, you must consider the temperature, mass, and heat capacity of every heated object in your living space. In that grand sum, 200 lb is not substantial, even when taking into account the relatively high heat capacity of soapstone. .

The sheet rock in the walls and ceiling of a 10x10 room weighs ~800 lbs, This is comparable to the 700 lb weight of the progress hybrid soapstone stove. At equal temperatures the heat capacity is similar

But.. the temperature are not equal.The walls are ~ room temperature, the stove is ~250 F.. On the whole, the heat capacity of a soapstone stove is significant.

Extending the analysis we have the walls loosing heat at a rate Qdot = DT / R where DT is the temperature difference between outside and inside.. in short the walls are always loosing heat to the outside. The stove is loosing heat into the room, making the room warmer.

1/2" sheet rock 1.6 lbs/ft^2
room 10x10
walls 400 ft^2
ceiling 100 ft^2
total 500 ft^2
weight 800 lbs


heat capacity
gypsum 0.26 BTU/lbm F
soapstone 0.2

 

[Berner]

Sounds like Berner's wood might not be completely dry; Shouldn't be leaving big chunks of coal unless, as you say, the stove/cat is crashing from the air being cut too far. Maybe a draft issue? On a 16' liner I could run the Fireview with the air cut almost all the way, like 0.2 of possible 4.0 air setting, have no flame in the box, yet the cat remained active and the load burned to ash, or a couple small coal chunks.

I only have two years of burning under my belt. The first year I would say your right. All my wood had only been 2yrs cut, split, single row stacked and top covered. But by last year the wood was in the 3 yr time frame. Is it possible that hardwood top covered for three years in a single row isn't ready?

This might also be related to what I would call a warped combuster. When I took it out to clean last year I noticed it isn't exactly a rectangle. This might leave a little air pocket for the exaust to flow through without going through the CAT?

 

[begreen]

Did you take a picture at the time?

 

[Berner]

Did you take a picture at the time?

I am really careful tucking in the rope gasket when putting the CAT back in. If there was a gap would I struggle to get any CAT light off at all? I'm definitely getting some light off but I wonder if it could be working better.

 

[fire_man]

Is it possible that hardwood top covered for three years in a single row isn't ready?

This might also be related to what I would call a warped combuster. When I took it out to clean last year I noticed it isn't exactly a rectangle. This might leave a little air pocket for the exaust to flow through without going through the CAT?

Any wood that has been split,stacked and top covered for 3 years should definitely be read. The warped combustor is a mystery. I would contact WS.

 

[TheRambler]

TheRambler: What is your flue height? Interior or Exterior? It's amazing to me you can operate the Progress with no flames for almost the entire burn with no backpuffing.

Usually the Progress will fire the secondaries after the cat gets really hot - and even if you cut the air down completely they won't shut down. Are your split sizes enormous?

I do get a backpuff on a rare occasion. Its usually on a day when it climbs into low 50s after a morning fire .

My flue is 23ft, interior except the last 6-8ft or so.

I found the key is shutting down the air early. I let her rip until everything is charred well and then immediately shut it down. If i let it go too long i will get alot of secondary action.

 

[fire_man]

Interior 23 foot flue! That sounds like the cat's meow for the Progress. I think the Progress prefers a tall flue.

Explains why you can run with a black firebox and minimal backpuffing.

 

[Woody Stover]

Is it possible that hardwood top covered for three years in a single row isn't ready?

I'd think that would be plenty dry.

View attachment 167784
I am really careful tucking in the rope gasket when putting the CAT back in. If there was a gap would I struggle to get any CAT light off at all? I'm definitely getting some light off but I wonder if it could be working better.

"Tucking in?" I'm not familiar with the PH gaskets but the Fireview and Keystone have the cat gasket glued into a groove, nothing needs to be tucked. There is a frame to contain the cat, and an interam gasket so no smoke can get past between the cat and the frame. The new steel cats have done away with the frame, from what I understand. But yeah, once the bypass is closed all the exhaust should be routed through the cat. Any smoke that gets past the cat is going to gunk up your stack.

 

[Berner]

I'd think that would be plenty dry.
"Tucking in?" I'm not familiar with the PH gaskets but the Fireview and Keystone have the cat gasket glued into a groove, nothing needs to be tucked. There is a frame to contain the cat, and an interam gasket so no smoke can get past between the cat and the frame. The new steel cats have done away with the frame, from what I understand. But yeah, once the bypass is closed all the exhaust should be routed through the cat. Any smoke that gets past the cat is going to gunk up your stack.

The stove has a slot that accepts the CAT. Since there is a little gap they solve this by a rope gasket that you need to place in when sliding in the CAT.

Forgive my ignorance but why does any smoke that gets past the CAT gunk up the stack?

 

[Ashful]

The sheet rock in the walls and ceiling of a 10x10 room weighs ~800 lbs, This is comparable to the 700 lb weight of the progress hybrid soapstone stove. At equal temperatures the heat capacity is similar

But.. the temperature are not equal.The walls are ~ room temperature, the stove is ~250 F.. On the whole, the heat capacity of a soapstone stove is significant.

Extending the analysis we have the walls loosing heat at a rate Qdot = DT / R where DT is the temperature difference between outside and inside.. in short the walls are always loosing heat to the outside. The stove is loosing heat into the room, making the room warmer.

1/2" sheet rock 1.6 lbs/ft^2
room 10x10
walls 400 ft^2
ceiling 100 ft^2
total 500 ft^2
weight 800 lbs


heat capacity
gypsum 0.26 BTU/lbm F
soapstone 0.2

Correct... if you lived in a stick and sheetrock house. The OP and I both live in masonry houses with very thick interior and exterior masonry walls. I was not making consideration for those of you in lesser construction.

 

[begreen]

less lossy construction

 

[fire_man]

Forgive my ignorance but why does any smoke that gets past the CAT gunk up the stack?

I would think it would be insignificant - but any smoke that makes it past the cat represents unburned particulates which is the essence of flue clogging soot.

 

[Berner]

I would think it would be insignificant - but any smoke that makes it past the cat represents unburned particulates which is the essence of flue clogging soot.

That makes sense but I have to pry further. What's the difference between this and opening up your damper? Sorry if I am bringing this thread off topic.

 

[fire_man]

The difference is when the damper is open, it probably means you are firing up a new load, and you also open up the air. More air gives a cleaner burn, although I think flues get more gunked up during shoulder season when lots of fires get started from a cold stove.

When the cat is engaged with the draft cut back, you are counting on the cat to incinerate the smoke and thereby cut down on the flue clogging soot. If the cat is engaged but smokes leaks past it, you would probably see the gray smoke out the stack.

 

[Berner]

The difference is when the damper is open, it probably means you are firing up a new load, and you also open up the air. More air gives a cleaner burn, although I think flues get more gunked up during shoulder season when lots of fires get started from a cold stove.

When the cat is engaged with the draft cut back, you are counting on the cat to incinerate the smoke and thereby cut down on the flue clogging soot. If the cat is engaged but smokes leaks past it, you would probably see the gray smoke out the stack.

Makes sense. I don't see any gray smoke coming out of the stack once things get going where I'm burning with the cat engaged and air choked down.

I also wonder about all the shoulder season burning habits. I'm usually making new fires daily around 4pm to take the chill off then a small load before bed. Way too warm still to throw in a big load.

 

[Ashful]

less lossy construction

True... but it does seem that switching from a radiant to convective stove has made a substantial improvement in my losses. I'm waiting on the tally of some winter oil bills to call it a victory, but things seem to be headed in the right direction.

 

[begreen]

Good to hear that. I'm looking forward to your report on how the Ashfords are working out for you, especially when temps finally get cold.

 

[Huntindog1]

True, but the point remains the same. 700 lb of soapstone won't have any heat capacity or latency advantage over 500 lb of steel, when placed within the envelope of a 1 million pound house.

Not everyone lives in a stone house.

 

[Ashful]

Not everyone lives in a stone house.

That's not my fault.