practices in re-wiring kitchen for remodel

[hockeypuck]

I'm a little perplexed by the usual advice to put fridge on a dedicated circuit. Previously (before this remodel) a single 20amp circuit powered the fridge and microwave, plus a rarely used wall outlet. Without any issues whatsoever. And aren't modern refrigerators way more efficient than old (in my case, 28 years) ones ? But maybe their peak usage (e.g. defrost cycles) is as high or higher ?

Motor compressors in refrigerators can draw 4 to 5 x the current at start up..Your microwave will also have an initial start up draw. Run the micorwave...and the fridge decides to start.. starve the start up motor for current.. .could lead to premature failure or other electronic circuit issues.. why take the chance.. Just my opinion.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I always put the fridge on a dedicated circuit. Even if its a 15 amp circuit. Also i try to install at least 2 seperate 20 amp counter top circuits as a lot of high drain appliances get put there such as Coffee maker 1500 watts, toaster ovens 1000- 1500 watts ,microwaves and convection microwaves 800-1500 watts. You just dont want 2 of these things going at once on the same circuit.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Motor compressors in refrigerators can draw 4 to 5 x the current at start up..Your microwave will also have an initial start up draw. Run the micorwave...and the fridge decides to start...

Sure. But over the last 28 years, the breaker has never flipped. Maybe the fridge compressor has never started-up while the microwave is running, or at least coincident with the microwave starting.

But like I said, I'll have separate circuits for dishwasher, fridge, microwave. Also three 20amp circuits for countertops, even though I won't have a toaster oven, since that KA range includes one (sorta, it's second oven, which is small); still lots of high-draw stuff on the countertops though, like electric kettle, coffee mill, rice cooker. But, there's a good chance the fridge circuit will be 15 amps, which the manual seems to say is totally ok.

 

[hockeypuck]

Sure. But over the last 28 years, the breaker has never flipped. Maybe the fridge compressor has never started-up while the microwave is running, or at least coincident with the microwave starting.

But like I said, I'll have separate circuits for dishwasher, fridge, microwave. Also three 20amp circuits for countertops, even though I won't have a toaster oven, since that KA range includes one (sorta, it's second oven, which is small); still lots of high-draw stuff on the countertops though, like electric kettle, coffee mill, rice cooker. But, there's a good chance the fridge circuit will be 15 amps, which the manual seems to say is totally ok.

Circuit breakers do not trip instantaneously at their rated current... it does not matter..you ran the circuit.

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[RustyShackleford]

it does not matter..you ran the circuit.

I don't take your meaning.

 

[jebatty]

20 years have passed since my kitchen re-do. Separate 15A circuits for refrigerator and dishwasher, a 20A plug-in outlet box circuit for the microwave which can take additional appliances when the microwave is not used, 3 counter-top plug-in outlet boxes sharing a 20A circuit, and a 4 outlet box sharing 2 - 15A circuits on the counter-top. Besides the microwave, the only appliance regularly used on the counter-top is the toaster, plugged into a shared 20A outlet box. The other high amperage counter-top appliances are used occasionally and are the electric fry pan/griddle, which uses one of the 15A outlets and the blender which uses the 20A circuit shared with the toaster.

The 4-outlet box 15A circuits also is populated with wallwart transformers for small DC powered devices and has been very useful in this regard.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I don't take your meaning.

I think they are trying to say, Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a really good idea."

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I deal with new 15 amp outlet circuits on a regular basis that get very warm with only a 10 amp draw and nothing else on the same circuit. Mostly window air conditioners. Sometimes installing a HD 20 amp outlet keeps it cool ,sometimes just swapping out the older appliance. My outlets used to get overly warm with loads of xmas lights going,solved that by switching to LED.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think they are trying to say, Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a really good idea."

Thanks for explaining. I'm getting sort of a general tone of "you're half-assing it" in this thread, not an accusation I'm used to hearing. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.

It seems to me the only thing I'm doing (or not doing), that could be argued with, is that I'll probably give the fridge only a 15amp circuit. Otherwise I'll have three 20amp countertop circuits (including a wet bar), and even so, I'll have neither a microwave nor a toaster oven on my countertops (the microwave will be included in a hood/microwave combo with its own circuit, and there'll be no toaster oven since the range includes a second small oven). Then I'll have a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the microwave/hood, and a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the fridge. The dishwasher already has a 20amp dedicated circuit (it's not moving in the remodel).

I'm pretty comfortable with only 15amps for the fridge. I'm doing that (instead of 20 amps) because it's convenient with the existing wiring. The fridge instructions "require" a 15 or 20 amp circuit and a dedicated circuit is "recommended" (with no suggestion that it be 20 amps instead of 15 amps).

If anyone thinks any of this is cutting corners, please explain again - I'd seriously appreciate it.

 

[begreen]

I'm pretty comfortable with only 15amps for the fridge.

The question is - why? I would only put in 20 amp circuits for a kitchen. The only 15 amp circuits I would put in would be for lighting. It's the same amount of work and almost the same price to wire it up for 20 amps. Then if there are later remodels or layout changes then the 20 amp circuit may get repurposed.

 

[RustyShackleford]

The question is - why? ... It's the same amount of work ...

Actually not. There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down. Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain. Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel. Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).

So maybe I am being half-assed on that. But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost. Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief. So it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Also, and maybe somebody can enlighten me here, I'm befuddled about what to do with a piece of Romex that's going into the panel that I no longer use. Easy enough to remove the hot wire from the breaker. But the ground is all twisted up with the other grounds - maybe that's the way they do it when they first wire a house ? Just clip the ground off where it's rolled into a bunch of others and then pull the rest out ?

 

[hockeypuck]

Actually not. There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down. Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain. Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel. Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).

So maybe I am being half-assed on that. But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost. Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief. So it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Also, and maybe somebody can enlighten me here, I'm befuddled about what to do with a piece of Romex that's going into the panel that I no longer use. Easy enough to remove the hot wire from the breaker. But the ground is all twisted up with the other grounds - maybe that's the way they do it when they first wire a house ? Just clip the ground off where it's rolled into a bunch of others and then pull the rest out ?

Get it out of the panel..clip the ground of need be..better yet buy a ground bar and properly ground the circuits.

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[begreen]

Actually not. There's a piece of 14ga Romex in the attic already wired to a breaker, that's currently unused; all I gotta do is drill a hole in the top plate and poke it down. Running 12ga back to the panel is a bigger pain. Gotta drill new hole in the top plate above the panel (which is already saturated with holes), and find another clamp with free space going into the panel. Or remove the old Romex (which is caulked into place).

So maybe I am being half-assed on that. But its look like a modern energy-efficient fridge draws less than 2 amps when the compressor is running and maybe 5-6 amps during defrost. Yes, the compressor causes a surge when it starts, but that's definitely not going to pop that 15 amp breaker (since they unequivocally state that a 15 amp circuit is acceptable), nor does it risk overheating the wire, since it's so brief. So it seems pretty reasonable to me.

OK, now I can understand there are extenuating circumstances here and no, you're not being half-assed, just practical. It will work. Agreed that there should be a proper ground bar in the panel. A rats nest of ground wires twisted together may not all get good contact to actual ground, makes routing of wires messier and harder to trace if there is an issue.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

When my house was first wired it was wired on 2 circuits. One for lighting, one for the walls. Over the years pieces have been cut off so rooms are on their own circuits.

I recently switched the stove from electric to gas. When I pulled the wire down below the floor I got the idea to put a sub panel under the kitchen. Then I took the original wires and put them on their own circuits. The sub panel makes all the runs real short.

 

[fbelec]

this is nec that i have to use everyday. the appliance that you plug into the outlet doesn't dictate what has to be installed. not to say if it say's 20 amp you need to do so but codes in a kitchen have to be 20 amp. anytime anyone updates a room regardless of what room it is the room has to be brought up to code. arc faults i don't like but i have to put them in. i put a separate circuit in for a fridge because it would be bad if you leave in the morning and not notice that something else on the circuit took out the breaker and food was lost. i personally don't like the gfi receptacle or breaker on the fridge because they can be fussy but i have to do it. do what you think is best for you but at least you know what the codes are.

frank

 

[RustyShackleford]

OK, now I can understand there are extenuating circumstances here and no, you're not being half-assed, just practical. It will work. Agreed that there should be a proper ground bar in the panel. A rats nest of ground wires twisted together may not all get good contact to actual ground, makes routing of wires messier and harder to trace if there is an issue.

The grounds are screwed to the ground bar (where the neutrals are also connected). It's just that they're all twisted together before that, so only way to remove an obsoleted piece of Romex is to clip it.

Damn, maybe each ground doesn't have its own screw in the ground bar - hard to tell since they're twisted together - I better check that.

 

[RustyShackleford]

... put a sub panel under the kitchen. Then I took the original wires and put them on their own circuits. The sub panel makes all the runs real short.

Cute idea - I love it. Although said sub-panel would only be about 12ft from the main one. I do like sub-panels though: I have one for water heaters (even though it only hosts one unit so far, see another thread) and one for HVAC (the main heat pump and a mini-split in an addition).

 

[RustyShackleford]

this is nec that i have to use everyday...

I feel your pain (a little bit). Recently I wired a small addition which WAS subject to inspection (being a significant increase of my footprint). I didn't have to worry about arc fault because I was able to extend several existing circuits (from the original house). But I did have a headache or two over the rule about having a neutral in any switch box, and 3way switch configurations.

a separate circuit in for a fridge because it would be bad if you leave in the morning and not notice that something else on the circuit took out the breaker and food was lost.

You could say you'd be MORE likely to notice the problem if there was something else on the circuit. Anyhow, I'm definitely down with a dedicated fridge circuit.

 

[fbelec]

right now to us electricians if we add a outlet, switch or light that new addition has to be arc fault. so if we come on to a job of adding one recessed light to a existing bank of recessed lights we would have to change the existing breaker to arc fault or start a new circuit for that light. with new wiring it works but i doesn't work with old circuits. here in the northeast we have a lot of old wiring that works fine and been running for 100 years but put on a arc fault and the arc fault breaker pops. i also heard a new insane code change for next year. not 100% on this because i need to talk to inspectors to see about this and when it will take place but if i come to your house to change a outlet i will be required to make the circuit that handles the outlet arc fault. this is the stupidest code change that i have heard to date. this is going to accomplish electrician's to do work without permits and cause home owners to not get insurance money for a fire that may have started to a outlet that if the wire is torqued down to the inch pound that they recommend can loosen up on the way into the box that is to be mounted to. also it will cause the electrician to call his or her liability insurance for a claim so that it will make for rising prices and insurance companies to cut the policy to guy's that like home owners find out that after 1 claim the insurance drops you. and in order for a electrician to pull a permit here in Massachusetts we have to have liability. i just want to know what brain thought up this one. this code is going to cost the home owner money

sorry for the rant stuff like this gets me 4 feet off the ground.

 

[RustyShackleford]

right now to us electricians ...

When I did my addition a couple years ago, the rule was that if I extended an existing circuit, I didn't need to change the breaker to arc fault; but if I added a branch circuit, it had to be AFI protected. Fortunately the room was just some lights and a few outlets, so I was able to extend several existing circuits with some conveniently-located wiring. Anyhow, the inspector was clueless, I didn't need to do anything.

sorry for the rant stuff like this gets me 4 feet off the ground

No prob. Funny, I always thought a lot of this new stuff (AFI, neutral in switchbox) was to help generate revenue for electrical contractors. But you don't seem very happy about it, so maybe not ...

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I finished off my attic and the inspector was railing against arc faults.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Refrigerator circuits have called for 15 Amp circuits for a long time. One reason i could think of is a 15 Amp circuit would trip sooner than a 20 if a problem arises such as a short in the fridge. A shorted circuit may eventually cause a fire if the breaker dont trip. I could be wrong about this but it seems logical.

 

[hockeypuck]

Refrigerator circuits have called for 15 Amp circuits for a long time. One reason i could think of is a 15 Amp circuit would trip sooner than a 20 if a problem arises such as a short in the fridge. A shorted circuit may eventually cause a fire if the breaker dont trip. I could be wrong about this but it seems logical.

Refridge motors have thermal cut outs built in the motor. You are no safer on a 15 amp circuit.

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[fbelec]

No prob. Funny, I always thought a lot of this new stuff (AFI, neutral in switchbox) was to help generate revenue for electrical contractors. But you don't seem very happy about it, so maybe not ...

when the arc fault starts tripping it's a pain. it's also a pain when i lose out on doing some work because a simple quick job turns out to be a little more money than the customer want to pay for the simple job.

as far as a short circuit the breaker blows within a 1/8 to 2 seconds doesn't matter what size breaker or wire. they have to put a rating on the appliance and if it were 20 amp circuit it wouldn't be legal to run a fridge in the old houses around because they are 15 amp circuits.

 

[venator260]

Edit: So I didn't read the rest of the thread after I saw something I wanted to reply to. Some of this has been covered already.

Who's code, NEC or local?

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He is going off of the latest NEC revisions. One has to check what their locality has adopted. The locale that I live in enforces NEC 2009 (I believe). At any rate, it's the one before arc-fault breakers were required.

As for the fridge, I'm of the opinion that it's better safe than sorry. The thinking goes that if it's on a circuit with something else, and that something else unknowingly trips the breaker, you could have a mess on your hands depending upon when you discover that your fridge isn't working.

I redid my kitchen a bit ago, and it currently has the following:

50A Stove circut (6-3G wire)
3 20A GFCI circuits serving counter top outlets
20A dishwasher circuit
20A microwave circuit
20A circuit serving the outlets in the attached dining room
15A fridge circuit
15A lighting circuit that also serves lights in other rooms

Previous to this, I lived in a house where the kitchen had a gas stove and was served by only 1 15A breaker. Needless to say, I became very tired of nuisance trips and developing strategies for electricity use in the kitchen that didn't trip the breaker. Given the chance, I sent enough power to the kitchen to ensure that would never happen. Looking back, I could have ran a few wires to the kitchen in the old house, but I didn't know nearly as much about wiring as I do now.


As I said, my local code does not require arc-fault breakers at all. So I've made ample use of space saver breakers and gave many things in the house their own circuits. I kept things organized, however, the panel is somewhat crowded because everything in the house is electric (no gas), and I have electric baseboards throughout which take something like 14 slots all by themselves (20A 240V).

So, OP, assuming you've not already put up drywall, this is what I did, and the reasons for it.