Pacific Energy Summit Insert Installation Problem Provides Little Heat

[begreen]

Thanks to everyone's help and expertise (Hog, you really know your stuff, thanks) I am now very toasty in Cleveland. Stove gets very hot and now pours out the heat. 72 right now.

I can also say that learning how to use the air control properly makes a big difference and that takes some getting used to.

Thanks for the update! Hog is Mr. Summit! Good to hear you are warm, just in time for the snow and cold. Once you get used to turning down the air after the fire starts burning briskly it will come as second nature.

 

[Hogwildz]

Thanks to everyone's help and expertise (Hog, you really know your stuff, thanks) I am now very toasty in Cleveland. Stove gets very hot and now pours out the heat. 72 right now. The weather has been so bad here that the correct chimney cap will have to wait to be installed. Old one was siliconed down and still holding so far. Having a terra cotta put on once the weather breaks and I'm sure that will help even further. I will also insulate around the pipe up there before the terra cotta is put on. I know there are four bolts holding it down to the chimney pipe but do you guys recommend putting silicone on to seal it down or is there something better to use? Thanks again everyone.

I can also say that learning how to use the air control properly makes a big difference and that takes some getting used to.

Ah.... there it is, what we have been waiting to hear.
Another happy camper.
Silicone is the choice sealant for the top plate to tile sealant. Even if bolting the sides in, I would still seal the plate to the top tile to make a nice tight seal.
You'll get even more heat as you hone your skills with the stove and wood etc., enjoy.

 

[stevecip]

Try closing down the air a bit more to encourage better secondary burning, even for the daytime burns. The stove will get hotter. We can run our stove with the air almost all the way closed most of the time unless the wood is not fully seasoned.
Your wood may not be quite dry inside yet. Moisture in not measured on the end grain. Take some of the thicker oak splits and resplit them. Then test for moisture on the freshly split face of the wood. Press the pins of the meter firmly into the wood. Or do a quick test with the resplit by putting the freshly exposed face of the wood up against your cheek. If it feels cool and damp, it's still drying out.

I have been having a much better experience since installing a blocking plate and insulating the 3 sides of the old fireplace. I would like to thanks all participants on this site for sharing their collective knowledge.

The summit insert is providing much more heat, but I don't feel like it is living up to its potential just yet. I think I am losing significant heat to the concrete floor in front of the insert since the hot air blows down across the door and hits the floor which gets very hot. Are there any suggestions for a method to reflect that air and heat away from the floor so it is not absorbed by the floor and lost. Also was wondering if any heat could be lost by being drawn through the inside air intake and reintroduced to the fire since it is directed right passed it once it blows across the door. I was thinking about placing a piece of sheet metal in front of the stove so the air would would be drawn from the sides into the inside air intake...Any thoughts?

 

[Hogwildz]

The amount of air being taken into the intake is minimal, and really shouldn't be an issue.
Not sure on the new C body, as I have only had the A & B bodies.
Are you monitoring temps of the insert? What is it peaking & cruising at?
What species of wood are you burning and just how dry is it?
That hot air is going to rise fairly quickly. The layout of the room/house and convection loop or lack of is going to be the next big factor.

 

[Coldinclev]

Got the guy coming out today to replace the cap on my chimney with the terra cotta and I have a few questions. Can you apply silicone all weather sealant to seal the chimney cap to the chimney tile in very cold weather (5-20 degrees F) or is it better to wait till it gets warmer? Is there any rule of thumb for letting it set or getting a good seal in cold weather? Should I wait a couple of days before building a fire?

 

[Coldinclev]

Also got a guy climbing around on my roof in very cold temps with a roof pitch ladder to do this with almost a foot of snow on my roof. Am I risking damaging shingles having him do this?

 

[BrotherBart]

It will set up from the heat of the chimney. The silicone won't be doing much with a terra cotta top plate anyway. I stuffed Roxul around the top of my two liners under the terra cotta top plates and didn't even bother with caulking the top of the tiles. Years ago and they are doing fine.

You are gonna love those things.

 

[stevecip]

The amount of air being taken into the intake is minimal, and really shouldn't be an issue.
Not sure on the new C body, as I have only had the A & B bodies.
Are you monitoring temps of the insert? What is it peaking & cruising at?
What species of wood are you burning and just how dry is it?
That hot air is going to rise fairly quickly. The layout of the room/house and convection loop or lack of is going to be the next big factor.

I have a Rutland thermometer placed over the top right corner of the door. I have yet to see it reach 500F. It usually cruises around 450F and when I reload it is in the 300F-400F range. I am burning hickory, mulberry, white oak, red oak, locust, American holly, dogwood, black birch, and some cherry. I cut and split all of the trees myself, so I know exactly what I am burning. When I reload the insert the wood catches right away and there is no 'sizzle' sound or visible moisture being forced out of the wood. Next step is researching convection loop.

 

[Hogwildz]

Those temps are low. Should be peaking about 700 at top peak and cruising about 600 or so.
The heat output difference is noticeable over 500°
Wood ain't dry enough, or try loading with a little more air space between the splits.
Although even when I load tight, it still reaches peak and cruising temps, just takes a little longer.
If it only gets to 450, and you're reloading at 300-400, that is reloading way too soon.
Are these full loads? Are you getting a lot of coal build up reloading that often?
Just because the wood ain't sizzling, don't mean it is necessarily dry.

Try getting the temp up higher before cutting the air back.
Are you cutting the air back all the way? I do, but some can't.
You're in the learning stage, try different settings etc. Experiment.
I have a feeling the wood may not be quite ready. if those are your peak temps.
With real dry wood, I can cut the air back all the way low at 350 and it will still climb to peak 700 and cruise at 600ish. Sounds like yours is bogging down. You need to try and get it over the hump or say 500, and get it to peak and cruise.
You may want to check your stack & cap up top, make sure the low temp burns aren't creating build up up top.

 

[DraftDaddy]

I have been having a much better experience since installing a blocking plate and insulating the 3 sides of the old fireplace. I would like to thanks all participants on this site for sharing their collective knowledge.

The summit insert is providing much more heat, but I don't feel like it is living up to its potential just yet. I think I am losing significant heat to the concrete floor in front of the insert since the hot air blows down across the door and hits the floor which gets very hot. Are there any suggestions for a method to reflect that air and heat away from the floor so it is not absorbed by the floor and lost. Also was wondering if any heat could be lost by being drawn through the inside air intake and reintroduced to the fire since it is directed right passed it once it blows across the door. I was thinking about placing a piece of sheet metal in front of the stove so the air would would be drawn from the sides into the inside air intake...Any thoughts?

This is my first reply on the forum so I hope I am doing it correctly and have been meaning to start a thread on the Summit Series C insert and plan on doing so in the near future. In regards to losing significant heat to the concrete floor in front of the insert statement I agree with you and put up with that for one evening. I have hardwood over a crawl space and was not going to let 275 degree air blast the floor (I run my blowers on high). To get the air to come out horizontal all you have to do is take out the two bolts that hold the shelf above the firebox opening and go to the local hardware store. Buy two 1/4" -20 x 1 3/4" bolts, transfer one of the black 3/8" washers to the new longer bolts, then put a 1/4" fender washer on to make separating the washers easier when putting the shelf back on and then buy enough 3/8" washers to fill the rest of the bolts up leaving the same amount of threads exposed as the original bolts had with its two original washers. Loosely screw the two new bolts into the shelf and install back on the stove with the stove mount tab going between the fender washer and the first washer that was put on. The single fender washer makes it much easier to separate the washers when installing back on the stove. This will raise the shelf up about an inch to a point where the shelf lip tip that forces the air down onto the floor is at the same height as the top of the outside sheet metal stove box. Doing this, the air will come out horizontally and not hit the floor. Since there are many washers on the new bolts, you can also set the height any where in between to adjust how much air hits the floor. I find the radiant heat from the glass puts out enough energy in front of the stove to heat the floor in front.

For an added note, I have an outside 22' tall chimney with too much draft and I have been running a flue damper and draft gauge on my insert for the past two years and can provide the following observations. At 0,04" H2O the secondaries will shoot down about 2.5". At 0.06" the secondaries shoot down about 4.5". At 0.08" H2O the secondaries are much more turbulent and harder to gauge but shoot down about half way to the bottom of the fire box. At 0.20" H2O the secondary flames will shoot down 3/4 the way to the bottom. On my insert it seems that the EBT opens up at about 0.08". I generally like to cruse between 0.04 and 0.07" H20 and when I want to get really hot and want to burn a load up fast I will run the insert at 0.08 to 0.10" but needs to be monitored for over firing. Greater the draft, greater will be the exit flue gas temperature and thus greater heat lost out of the system. With an IR gun it seems that on my C series the center over the door is the hottest spot relative the the corners, but is not very accurate for temperature reading since it is really giving me a reading of the air that is about to go over the door glass and is not the temperature of the stove. I have found that the stronger the draft the stove operates. the more off the reading will be over the door since cooler air is spending less time being heated up due to the increase in draft velocity.

I went from loading this insert every 4 hours before I had the draft under control and now I am loading between 8 and 16 hours. The secondaries can flat out chew threw the wood with a strong draft since the high low slide lever at the bottom does not reduce the secondary air when slid to low. In actuality, it will increase the stove draft reading at the exit of the stove by 0.02" H2O when slid from medium to low. Sorry for the length of response but just wanted to help our a fellow Series C owner.

 

[stevecip]

Those temps are low. Should be peaking about 700 at top peak and cruising about 600 or so.
The heat output difference is noticeable over 500°
Wood ain't dry enough, or try loading with a little more air space between the splits.
Although even when I load tight, it still reaches peak and cruising temps, just takes a little longer.
If it only gets to 450, and you're reloading at 300-400, that is reloading way too soon.
Are these full loads? Are you getting a lot of coal build up reloading that often?
Just because the wood ain't sizzling, don't mean it is necessarily dry.

Try getting the temp up higher before cutting the air back.
Are you cutting the air back all the way? I do, but some can't.
You're in the learning stage, try different settings etc. Experiment.
I have a feeling the wood may not be quite ready. if those are your peak temps.
With real dry wood, I can cut the air back all the way low at 350 and it will still climb to peak 700 and cruise at 600ish. Sounds like yours is bogging down. You need to try and get it over the hump or say 500, and get it to peak and cruise.
You may want to check your stack & cap up top, make sure the low temp burns aren't creating build up up top.

Thanks. I will experiment with the settings and I will check my stack and cap for build up tomorrow...too windy today.

 

[stevecip]

This is my first reply on the forum so I hope I am doing it correctly and have been meaning to start a thread on the Summit Series C insert and plan on doing so in the near future. In regards to losing significant heat to the concrete floor in front of the insert statement I agree with you and put up with that for one evening. I have hardwood over a crawl space and was not going to let 275 degree air blast the floor (I run my blowers on high). To get the air to come out horizontal all you have to do is take out the two bolts that hold the shelf above the firebox opening and go to the local hardware store. Buy two 1/4" -20 x 1 3/4" bolts, transfer one of the black 3/8" washers to the new longer bolts, then put a 1/4" fender washer on to make separating the washers easier when putting the shelf back on and then buy enough 3/8" washers to fill the rest of the bolts up leaving the same amount of threads exposed as the original bolts had with its two original washers. Loosely screw the two new bolts into the shelf and install back on the stove with the stove mount tab going between the fender washer and the first washer that was put on. The single fender washer makes it much easier to separate the washers when installing back on the stove. This will raise the shelf up about an inch to a point where the shelf lip tip that forces the air down onto the floor is at the same height as the top of the outside sheet metal stove box. Doing this, the air will come out horizontally and not hit the floor. Since there are many washers on the new bolts, you can also set the height any where in between to adjust how much air hits the floor. I find the radiant heat from the glass puts out enough energy in front of the stove to heat the floor in front.

For an added note, I have an outside 22' tall chimney with too much draft and I have been running a flue damper and draft gauge on my insert for the past two years and can provide the following observations. At 0,04" H2O the secondaries will shoot down about 2.5". At 0.06" the secondaries shoot down about 4.5". At 0.08" H2O the secondaries are much more turbulent and harder to gauge but shoot down about half way to the bottom of the fire box. At 0.20" H2O the secondary flames will shoot down 3/4 the way to the bottom. On my insert it seems that the EBT opens up at about 0.08". I generally like to cruse between 0.04 and 0.07" H20 and when I want to get really hot and want to burn a load up fast I will run the insert at 0.08 to 0.10" but needs to be monitored for over firing. Greater the draft, greater will be the exit flue gas temperature and thus greater heat lost out of the system. With an IR gun it seems that on my C series the center over the door is the hottest spot relative the the corners, but is not very accurate for temperature reading since it is really giving me a reading of the air that is about to go over the door glass and is not the temperature of the stove. I have found that the stronger the draft the stove operates. the more off the reading will be over the door since cooler air is spending less time being heated up due to the increase in draft velocity.

I went from loading this insert every 4 hours before I had the draft under control and now I am loading between 8 and 16 hours. The secondaries can flat out chew threw the wood with a strong draft since the high low slide lever at the bottom does not reduce the secondary air when slid to low. In actuality, it will increase the stove draft reading at the exit of the stove by 0.02" H2O when slid from medium to low. Sorry for the length of response but just wanted to help our a fellow Series C owner.

Thanks. I can experiment with lifting the shelf with longer bolts. I also have a 22' chimney, but I don't know my draft measurement. I have noticed that the secondaries can really go through the wood. Can you give me some more info on what you are using to check and control the draft? If it is anything like the device on my oil burner I don't think I will be able to incorporate it with the insert.

 

[Hogwildz]

Thanks. I can experiment with lifting the shelf with longer bolts. I also have a 22' chimney, but I don't know my draft measurement. I have noticed that the secondaries can really go through the wood. Can you give me some more info on what you are using to check and control the draft? If it is anything like the device on my oil burner I don't think I will be able to incorporate it with the insert.

The stove is made for the secondaries to burn the wood load. This stove and many of today's modern stoves are made to burn from the top down.
Unlike the old smokers, these are not made to flame from all sides of hell, but to burn controlled and efficiently.
The secondaries are doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

 

[DraftDaddy]

Thanks. I can experiment with lifting the shelf with longer bolts. I also have a 22' chimney, but I don't know my draft measurement. I have noticed that the secondaries can really go through the wood. Can you give me some more info on what you are using to check and control the draft? If it is anything like the device on my oil burner I don't think I will be able to incorporate it with the insert.

I use a Dwyer 1227 manometer to measure my draft. It has magnets on its back that will stick to the surround, just put tape over the magnets so they do not scratch. I did install a permanent metal tube to connect to that pokes out from behind the surround in a mortar joint to easily connect to when desired without taking the surround off. Regulating excess draft is harder with an insert over a stove due to access limitations but it can be done with some ingenuity, but I would not install a damper in the flue unless you have to since it is one more thing that can be forgotten. My wife put wood on the fire a few weeks ago while I was at work and left the flue damper open and when I came home the stove thermometer over the door was reading over 800 degrees so the actual stove temperature would of been 900 to 1000. My chimney is perfectly straight with a rigid 6" liner which has very very smooth sides compared to a flexible liner. I have tried to attached a picture of the insert with the shelf raised and the manometer in the surround. With the shelf raised up, I could fit a rod under the shelf to adjust the damper that is about 8" up on the flue pipe. The idea of running at maximum temperatures on the factory draft low setting did not set well with me so a flue damper was added. The bottom holes of the secondaries used to be my nemesis when I could not control them, but now they are my friend with the ability to raise and lower them at will.

Summit Series C with top shelf raised to allow the air to blow out horizontal and not to the floor.