This is another example of the installation nightmare my installer did. The cap on the right moved with the wind. Rain and snow down the chimney along with a ton of heat lost. Could have happened days after he installed the insert. I was informed by the dealer that the installer used the wrong base for my chimney. Bottom plate was made for a flush mount installation. Tapcon holes cannot be used, instead the bent the ends and there was no RTV used. Unbelievable! Terracotta should have been installed on my chimney with the four screws holding it to the pipe along with RTV seal. Hope I'm on the right track here. This is being replaced. What a nightmare.
Pacific Energy Summit Insert Installation Problem Provides Little Heat
- Thread starter Coldinclev
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Glad to help anytime. If I have an answer, I will always share, if I don't I will admit that also.
By S.S. tubing, do you mean flex liner or rigid piping?
At 25', you should have a good strong draft, either way.
I am a proponent of insulating liners, but that is just my opinion and preference.
I used insulated double wall rigid, but have 5' of uninsulated flex at the bottom through the old fireplace smoke shelf down to the stove.
I would advise to at least stuff as much Roxul as you can at the top under the top plate, as far down as you can, without going nuts trying to get it down in deep. And a must IMO is the lower block off plate in the old firebox damper area, and you can also stuff Roxul up in there or over top of the block off plate. I reused some old Rockwool I took out from the previous slammer install, over the block off plate I installed.
Insulated liner promotes better draft, and also retains more heat in the liner, thus promoting less creosote build up.
I used an oversized extended flue cap kit. It was a flat plate, so I bent all 4 sides over 90 degrees cleaned the top of the old tile real good and put a generous amount of silicone on the top edge of the tile, then sat the top plate on. Since the plate did not have holes to put through and secure to the tile, and the fact I was fearful of cracking or breaking the tile, I let the weight of the liner, plus the tight bends I made on plate, hold the top plate in place. This worked out good for me, and have never had any movement, and it is still tight 9 years later. I also went as far as pump silicone up between the bent flanges and the tile on each side, worked it in real good, and it is tight. I can't tell by the photo, but make sure they installed a storm collar up there and sealed it well with silicone. It must be worked/tooled with a finger in both directions, for it to adhere well. Any surface oils on the liner which most all liners have on them, must be cleaned off in the area the storm collar is to be sealed around the liner. This can be done with rubbing alcohol, brake cleaner spray, anything that doesn't leave a residue.
mstoelton
Feeling the Heat
Coldinclev - Based on the shoddy work on the exterior chimney finish - I would not trust any of your installers work at all. The Installer (hack) should have used a terracotta top plate, preferably one that is hinged to make sweeping easier in the future. Replacement of the existing one would take about 20 minutes if you had the replacement on hand. As long as you can get on the roof, turn a screwdriver and a wrench, this is a do-it-yourself kind of thing.
Note: Looking at your top plate in the picture above, and knowing that you don't have a block-off plate at the damper area, I can see why you don't get any heat from the insert - your heat is going up your unblocked chimney around the stainless flue pipe unhindered. Ding Ding Ding - We found the problem folks!
Having read through this posting and many other similar posts (insert not heating well), there seem to be patterns emerging.
1. well sealed block-off plates are necessary for inserts. (many installers don't want to install them because they increase time on the job and necessarily costs)
2. A well sealed chimney top is essential to retain heat in the home. (the block-off plate and the chimney top plate work together to isolate the chimney at both ends and prevent heat flow out of the home)
3. Moist wood will decrease the efficiency of your insert and result in sub-par performance. Use the driest wood you can get.
4. You gotta let it breathe - the fire needs air- it is one of the primary needs for combustion (air, fuel, heat). The air can come from an OAK or from interior home air but it has to come from somewhere.
5. If you are experiencing difficulty with an insert solve 1-4 above and your insert will behave.
Note: Looking at your top plate in the picture above, and knowing that you don't have a block-off plate at the damper area, I can see why you don't get any heat from the insert - your heat is going up your unblocked chimney around the stainless flue pipe unhindered. Ding Ding Ding - We found the problem folks!
Having read through this posting and many other similar posts (insert not heating well), there seem to be patterns emerging.
1. well sealed block-off plates are necessary for inserts. (many installers don't want to install them because they increase time on the job and necessarily costs)
2. A well sealed chimney top is essential to retain heat in the home. (the block-off plate and the chimney top plate work together to isolate the chimney at both ends and prevent heat flow out of the home)
3. Moist wood will decrease the efficiency of your insert and result in sub-par performance. Use the driest wood you can get.
4. You gotta let it breathe - the fire needs air- it is one of the primary needs for combustion (air, fuel, heat). The air can come from an OAK or from interior home air but it has to come from somewhere.
5. If you are experiencing difficulty with an insert solve 1-4 above and your insert will behave.
Well, at least your installer was being honest, if not indirectly and accidentally: he DID provide you with an "outside air" source in the chimney cavity, by not sealing the top plate! What a horror show. That explains why your unit is providing no heat to the interior of the house.
I'm sorry the install was such a disaster, but by posting here you have not only gotten the fix but have helped others learn (like you did, the hard way) that not all "pros" are professional. You should be able to quickly get more heat output, though, once you create dead air in the chimney, remove the plate to provide room air, and cover those back handle-holes.
I agree w/ Hogwildz, stuff Roxul at the top under the top plate before it is re-installed, and in the old firebox damper/smokeshelf area, too, because that will help to both insulate the liner and create dead air space in the chimney cavity to prevent heat transfer to the masonry and the outdoors.
Your wood is wet, or, your draft is insufficient. If I were a betting man I'd bet on the wood being wet.
The wood is cherry and locust seasoned for over two years and split into quarters with a moisture rating of around 8%. I have a moisture meter. Also use kiln dried hardwood bought from a local wood dealer. What do you mean by my draft being insufficient? Not enough air in the insert? Let me know.
Assuming your stove is getting enough air, you should feel quite a lot of heat coming off the front of that insert even if it was installed without a block-off plate. I hadn't considered the possibility that your installer may have left every intake blocked off.
Consider also that the installer left the top plate unsealed and ajar, too! With all these factors it's practically surprising the system is giving a net gain in heat at all, rather than a net loss.
The installer came back out and sealed the existing (wrong) top plate on my chimney with a generous amount of all weather RTV until he can get the terracotta top and install it correctly. Roof is very steep and weather is horrible here in Cleveland or I'd do it myself. There is no block off plate or insulation in my fireplace. I will take care of that. The installer says it's ok to burn in the mean time and wants to see if this kind of solves the heating problem. We don't know if we should burn or not at this time. Room air supply still closed, carrying handle holes in back are still not covered. Not able at this time to pull this out and if I do I want to fix everything which will take a while (insulation, block plate, cover handle holes, open front plate for room air.
Would you guys try to burn to see if centering and sealing the top of the chimney fixture helps or am I just wasting time and wood at this point?
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I'm sure that it will help quite a bit, but wouldn't be surpised if you still don't get great heat production due to the other factors. Until you let room air in for combustion, or replace the missing plates on the handle-holes, you won't know how much those problems factor in. It might be more satisfying to wait until it's fully set up as desired.
On the other hand, I don't see what you have to lose (other than a load of wood, and some heat) by burning now. It might be interesting to run a load through the stove as is to see how it performs, then remove the plate that blocks the room combustion air and burn a load with the additional air supply, and not any difference. Then later, with rear plates on, and with some insulation. At each stage you should see/feel improvement. It would be educational if nothing else.
If the fire is starved for air then I wouldn't expect to see a great difference. The insert does not need to be pulled to remove the room air plate. That is what I would do next.
I'm wondering if the handle holes are into the convection jacket? The reason I ask is that if they are then convection air will be blowing out of them into the fireplace instead of the room. It would seem that would reduce blower performance and waste heat, especially without a block-off plate.
I would not know the answer to that question but I'll bet there are people here that do.
mstoelton
Feeling the Heat
I would not try to start another fire until the room air intake plate is removed. That should only take a few minutes since it is accessible from the front of the unit. Then burn away.
The insert needs to be pulled to get that plate off doesn't it? Can I get it off from the front?
The handle holes are in the back casing, so yes heat could flow through them and up and out.
I also advise to remove the inside air box, which is in the front, and does not require removal of the insert. This should be #1 on the list at this point.
Yes, you can burn it safely, but might have same issues until you change some things. Starting with the inside air box removal, hint hint.
Thanks a lot to all of you guys. I have learned a ton. What a great website. I will be pulling the insert out next week. Hog, what do you mean by a storm coller....Is that part of the base on top of the chimney?
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Up top. Unless that top plate has a sealed, attached extension on it where the cap mounts on, it will be the liner extending through the cap, and may need a storm collar to keep water from running down the sides of the liner where it runs through the top plate. I can't tell what you have in the photos. Here is an example of a storm collar.
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Some people used cementboard. Roxul also came out with boards; I am curious if anyone will try using those as block-off plate and how well they work. http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/products
I just cut a piece of Roxul to fit between the smoke shelf and lintel, until I can get a proper block-off plate in there. As far as the handle holes, I'd cut a couple of pieces of sheet metal and stick 'em on with copper silicone, good for 800 intermittent. Or can you use the screw holes that are already in there? I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear your report when you fire it back up. 
Can anyone suggest any alternatives to steel plate for making a block plate? Something easier to cut and fit into place that can take the heat. Roxul comforboard FS????
26 ga sheet metal is pretty easy to cut with a set of aviation snips. Aluminum would also work if you can find it in sheets.
Did you remove the room air cover yet?
Did you remove the room air cover yet?
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