Now they're rationing LP keep those stoves going!

[Bioburner]

If as Jags supplier says, will blow over by March ,but the supply may not catch up till April? If the weather continues and copies last spring I can see some pellet shortages. Box stores quit handling pellets early March last year and still had some ugly cold and snow. I had offered to help a couple with install of stove last fall because of the propain use. Now will be a pain as the stove is in a shed with five foot of snow up the door.

 

[Bridgeman]

Does anyone think this is not a manufactured shortage? Here in New England it heating oil that the suppliers slow down supply to jack up the price. Irving Oil, a large vertical monopoly has almost complete control of heating oil prices in New England. Pellets require less investment to manufacture so the supply base is wide and diversified. It is less likely in the short term to be monopolized to the point were supplies can be controlled. The warning sign will be when a consolidation of the industry by a few wealthy individuals or corporations force out smaller manufacturers of pellets. They can do this by influencing government regulators or simply buying up the competition. I think are long way from that point because the manufacturing of pellets is simple process and the raw materials are cheap and widely available. I think the other thing keeping pellets prices low is alternative of using conventional wood stoves. There is a price point were the pellet stove convenience no longer offsets the conventional wood stove btu cost.

 

[raybonz]

Even at $4 / gal, it's probably less money to heat with electric. Time to go out and get some space heaters. Heck, pull out the hair dryers...

With these cold temps dinky little space heaters will not keep up.. You need some serious BTU's to do the job and portable electric heaters can perhaps assist beyond this..

Ray

 

[arbutus]

With these cold temps dinky little space heaters will not keep up.. You need some serious BTU's to do the job and portable electric heaters can perhaps assist beyond this..

Ray

Watts is watts. Plug in enough of them and blow breakers, burn the house down, or be warm.

 

[Bioburner]

Does anyone think this is not a manufactured shortage? Here in New England it heating oil that the suppliers slow down supply to jack up the price. Irving Oil, a large vertical monopoly has almost complete control of heating oil prices in New England. Pellets require less investment to manufacture so the supply base is wide and diversified. It is less likely in the short term to be monopolized to the point were supplies can be controlled. The warning sign will be when a consolidation of the industry by a few wealthy individuals or corporations force out smaller manufacturers of pellets. They can do this by influencing government regulators or simply buying up the competition. I think are long way from that point because the manufacturing of pellets is simple process and the raw materials are cheap and widely available. I think the other thing keeping pellets prices low is alternative of using conventional wood stoves. There is a price point were the pellet stove convenience no longer offsets the conventional wood stove btu cost.

Unfortunately skyrocketing electric rates discussed on another thread can shut down production. OP calculated cost to produce a ton of pellets went to $175 just for electricity.

 

[raybonz]

Watts is watts. Plug in enough of them and blow breakers, burn the house down, or be warm.

On highest setting you'll only realize ~5,000 btu.. In sub-zero this will not do much unless your walls are 3' thick.. Electricity in this area is not cheap.. You can only have one electric heater on high per circuit as they draw 12+ amps.. Have fun!

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...gclid=CMvsyN24mbwCFacDOgodHXIAsQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ray

 

[Former Farmer]

If memory serves me right, 1kw of electricity is equal to 3,412 btu. So if you have a 1500w heater, it will produce 4094 btu.

It will take 293kw to produce 1 million btu. If your electric costs you .15 per kw, that is equal to a 90% propane furnace using LP at 3.62 per gallon.

 

[raybonz]

If memory serves me right, 1kw of electricity is equal to 3,412 btu. So if you have a 1500w heater, it will produce 4094 btu.

It will take 293kw to produce 1 million btu. If your electric costs you .15 per kw, that is equal to a 90% propane furnace using LP at 3.62 per gallon.

The problem is the BTU's required would tax an electrical system .. A 1500 watt heater at 120 VAC pretty much needs it's own circuit.. We have Nstar and National Grid here and they are expensive compared to municipal power.. If electricity were inexpensive I'd use electric baseboard due to it's simplicity and each room could have it's own T-stat. Another plus is the quietness..

 

[Former Farmer]

A 1500 watt heater at 120 VAC pretty much needs it's own circuit.

Agreed. A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it. A person is just asking for problems if they do. A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them. Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.

 

[Bioburner]

Agreed. A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it. A person is just asking for problems if they do. A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them. Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.

Lets hope the wire gauge is supportive as well. My newer home has 20amp circuits and the self installed wiring in the basement for non light circuits is 12 gauge.

 

[TmbrCrk]

Local news reported yesterday it is up to $5.39/gallon. Still sitting at 23-24%, hope the hot h2o heater and oven don't use too much. I'm going to let it ride and hope we make it till the prices come down. Heating only with the Montecito and it's holding its own.

 

[raybonz]

Agreed. A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it. A person is just asking for problems if they do. A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them. Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.

The general rule is 80% continuous load so 15 amp circuit can be loaded to 12 amps and 20 amp circuit at 16 amps.. You can get away with 15 amp circuit for one 1500 W heater provided there is little to no load on it.. Breakers can nuisance trip if you run continuously over 80% load..

Ray

 

[WiscWoody]

Even at $4 / gal, it's probably less money to heat with electric. Time to go out and get some space heaters. Heck, pull out the hair dryers...

Well, here's the math,

1 KWh = 3400 BTUh @ $.15 x 100,000 BTU = $4.41 per hour of electric heat.
1 gallon of propane = 91,500 BTUh x .95 AFUE @ $4/gal = 86,925 BTUh
So if my calculation is correct electric would be cheaper but you'd need a good size heater in this weather or you can supplement your primary with unit heaters. I have heard on Hearth.com that LP here in WI has gone up to $6/gallon though. Hopefully that's not for real!

 

[WiscWoody]

Local news reported yesterday it is up to $5.39/gallon. Still sitting at 23-24%, hope the hot h2o heater and oven don't use too much. I'm going to let it ride and hope we make it till the prices come down. Heating only with the Montecito and it's holding its own.

You will be fine unless maybe you have a large family of teens rotating through the shower all morning long!

 

[Bioburner]

All those ice fishermen are in for a surprise when they go to refill those portable tanks

 

[begreen]

Here is an interesting statement from the EIA:

Because global prices for propane are significantly higher than U.S. prices, propane supplies will continue to move to Mont Belvieu for export. Midwest propane prices will rise to keep marginal supplies in the region when they are needed.

http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/2014/140115/twipprint.html

In other words, suck it up Midwest, we can get more for propane overseas. Sound familiar? It should. The primary intent of the proposed Keystone pipeline is to get tar sands oil to Tx for refining and shipping, overseas.

 

[heaterman]

Just took 3 phone calls from different areas in Michigan and one in Ohio with customer telling me their propane companies are unable to get, much less deliver any fuel. Limits of 200 gallon per delivery seem to be the norm.
One of the customers is a commercial operation that needs to keep his inventory (tropical fish) at 75*. He said he has 3 days supply left and can't get more until February 4th. Probably $500,000 worth of stock that could die on him.

What's the news on propane in your area?

This is a getting scary!

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

heaterman,
sounds like a portable Garn rental fleet would .be in order! quick disconnects

 

[jdonna]

Interesting tid bit over here. I called the Co Op where my propane contract is held. I said that I would be willing to sell back the 400 gallons that I will not take by April.

Response was that they historically haven't done that and were not sure if they would do such a thing. Said that they would get back to me if it got to that point.

I said, well thats fine, maybe I will get a 1000 gallon tank out here then and start hedging or take the full 400 in April.

Kinda made me wonder a little bit if the supplies are that tight, yet I hear of 100 gallon fill rations going on.

 

[MarkW]

Not good news for the propane heating masses.

I've not yet heard a thing in our area.

 

[eauzonedan]

Duluth MN TV says it's over five bucks and some rationing happening. The way the station worded their spot it could be interpreted that pre-buy agreements could be in jeopardy I do like the portable Garn idea but might be a good idea to empty it when transporting - to keep the trailer wheels round.....

 

[MarkW]

This could get ugly. The company I work for uses construction heaters that consume 15 gallons per hour. A shortage would not be good.

 

[jdonna]

You will be fine unless maybe you have a large family of teens rotating through the shower all morning long!

Throw back to the days when a copper boiler was placed on top of the cook stove or wood stove. Dirtiest person last in the tub!

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The oil industry does this all the time.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

J
One of the customers is a commercial operation that needs to keep his inventory (tropical fish) at 75*. He said he has 3 days supply left and can't get more until February 4th. Probably $500,000 worth of stock that could die on him.
/quote]

So whats his backup/alternate heat? Dont have one? IF homeowners need a backup plan then certainly a business with a lot more to lose needs one as well. Poor planning,or no planning.