Not getting enough heat - New Drolet 1800 - Do I need a flue damper?

[Woodcutter Tom]

Interesting! I'd certainly want to measure that. Any information on where to get a manometer and how you're connecting it to read draft?

How big of a house are you heating with it? I can't imagine how small the 1500 is. I'm finding the 1800 really small for loading...I can only get 3 big splits in there and I'm always hitting the damn air tubes when I load it.

If I load it up at 11pm, I barely have coals at 5am.

The manometer that I and others here use is the Dwyer Mark II Model 25. This unit provides the proper scale for the draft range that stoves utilize. I purchased mine on ebay a year ago. I checked there and am surprised (shocked) that the price is over double of what I paid. There seem to be many previously used units and some new available. I would look very careful at what is included in a used unit. A complete new unit includes the unit, special oil, tubing, fittings, and instructions. I used a 4 foot section of 1/4" copper tubing to connect to my double wall stove pipe. You need a section of this to keep the heat away from the rubber tubing in the kit. I drilled a 1/4 inch hole thru both layers of the stove pipe (at the rear so it does not show). The hole is located about 5 inches above the stove top. I pushed the copper tube thru the hole until it is inserted about 1 inch past the inner layer. The other end is attached to a 12 inch section of the tubing that comes with the unit. I used shrink wrap for this connection.

My house is a 1200 square feet ranch. I almost exclusively load my stove N - S (front to back) I have splits cut at 11" long. I can get a lot more wood in my stove loading that way. On a reload at night, I may scrape the coals either to one side or to the center. Then I place splits on the cleared areas and on top of the coals. The fire will burn where the coals are and then work its way toward other areas throughout the night.

 

[macgyverman]

The manometer that I and others here use is the Dwyer Mark II Model 25. This unit provides the proper scale for the draft range that stoves utilize. I purchased mine on ebay a year ago. I checked there and am surprised (shocked) that the price is over double of what I paid. There seem to be many previously used units and some new available. I would look very careful at what is included in a used unit. A complete new unit includes the unit, special oil, tubing, fittings, and instructions. I used a 4 foot section of 1/4" copper tubing to connect to my double wall stove pipe. You need a section of this to keep the heat away from the rubber tubing in the kit. I drilled a 1/4 inch hole thru both layers of the stove pipe (at the rear so it does not show). The hole is located about 5 inches above the stove top. I pushed the copper tube thru the hole until it is inserted about 1 inch past the inner layer. The other end is attached to a 12 inch section of the tubing that comes with the unit. I used shrink wrap for this connection.

My house is a 1200 square feet ranch. I almost exclusively load my stove N - S (front to back) I have splits cut at 11" long. I can get a lot more wood in my stove loading that way. On a reload at night, I may scrape the coals either to one side or to the center. Then I place splits on the cleared areas and on top of the coals. The fire will burn where the coals are and then work its way toward other areas throughout the night.

View attachment 291621

Thank you very much for the info! I'll look into that meter. Seems like it's about 70$ shipped ...but if it can help me adjust the draft to get more heat, it's worth it!

 

[macgyverman]

Update:

I checked 3 different logs, freshly split, after having spent 18 h inside to warm up. They all came up between 18 and 19% humidity. So, it could be a bit lower, but it's not entirely out of range. Oddly though, I can't explain why some logs are just turning to char instead of burning.

I'm at a bit of a loss. I struggle to get the stove to up past 270 C without having the flue gasses go nuts.

I guess the next thing to look at will be a damper.

We were finally able to heat up the basement to an uncomfortable level, but after 3 days of running the stove non-stopped. At least it's 0 C out this morning, so I should finally be able to heat the house above 23 C

 

[brenndatomu]

. I'm finding the 1800 really small for loading...I can only get 3 big splits in there and I'm always hitting the damn air tubes when I load it.

Hmm...sounds like awfully big wood...split those in two, see if it helps there to not be unburnt chunks left...

 

[savageactor7]

Just riffing on the above post...smaller splits will burn hotter, while larger splits will burn longer. that's just my experience and not EPA official.

Ideally I split to slightly larger than 2x4 size...mostly that's so I can throw them 6 to 8 ft or so as we don't stack wood but pile it up to season.

when we load the fire we can sandwich the splits for longer burns or not.

Just because the furnace turns on doesn't mean the stove isn't heating either just wait for a fuel bill, you may be pleasantly surprised.

While I have a stove pipe damper I have never used it. So I don't recommend one be installed to use as you would use a damper in a pre EPA stove. I put one it as a chimney fire safety because I was old school and always had one.

 

[MR. GLO]

I am interested in how this works out for you.
I have the 1800's baby brother, the Escape 1500. This is my second year with it. All last year I struggled to get heat out of the stove. Best STT I could get was about 350 F. My run times were short; burning thru a load every few hours. I did get a lot of heat up my flue. 1000- 1100, close to 1200 F at times measured with thermocoupler probe at 18" above stove top. After a discussion with SBI, it was determined that I had way too much draft. The air coming out of the secondary tubes was moving too fast to heat up and it was sucked up the flue too quickly. My manometer was displaying .18 - .20 inches of water column. SBI suggests .03 -.05 " WC. for my stove. I installed a damper in my stove pipe. It was a bit late in the season to really know how it would work.
This year I am controlling my draft with the damper...and I am using some larger splits of wood. I get quite a bit more heat at the STT and I get much longer runs. 6 - 8 hours. Load up at 8:00pm and there are coals to ignite new load at 7:00am.

BUT...quite a bit more heat is not hot and it is not good enough. I can get 540 F fairly easily with a flue temp of 700 - 800 F. That takes too long to heat the house. I am trying to figure out how to get the elusive 625 F STT.

Can you explain how much the damper dropped your draft on the guage when your burning after 20 minutes or so..?

When you adjust your damper?
Do you keep it closed until next reload...

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Can you explain how much the damper dropped your draft on the guage when your burning after 20 minutes or so..?

When you adjust your damper?
Do you keep it closed until next reload...

I am adjusting it throughout the start up process. I let it run high for a bit in order to help get the fire going. It is all based on what the flames are doing. When the flames a going good and the reading on my manometer gets above .10 " I will shut the damper a bit. Bring it down to about .06 or so. As the fire takes off, I am adjusting both the damper and my primary air. The draft changes as the fire changes. I am watching both my flue temp gauge (internal probe at 18" above stove top) and my manometer reading and also the flames. I look to see if the flames are being sucked up around the edge of the baffle plate and up the flue. And how intensely they are being sucked.

The damper has significant impact on the draft. Prior to having the damper, it was not uncommon for me to have .18 - .20 " WC. I have an 'enhanced' damper. If you look at the damper (see pic) you will notice significant space for air flow when the damper is fully closed. I attached large washers to the plate which cover up some of the opening along the control rod. When I have my stove 'settled in', the damper will be nearly in the completely closed position. There are times I have the damper in the completely closed position. I try to keep it under .05" WC. .04 or even a bit less seem to work best; but I am still learning and experimenting.

My primary air adjustments are done in micro movements. I see where people here state they shut the primary air down 50% at some point, then 75 - 80 % shut. Not me. I bump my control lever with my fist to move it a small amount (a 1/10 to less than 1/4"). My primary air adjustment has significant impact on my flames and heat up the flue. Too much movement and the flue temp may continue to increase, then the rate of increases slows, then the temp falls, sometimes over 100 degrees in a matter of a few minutes. It might stabilize and then increase, or it might be enough to decrease the flames in the firebox and not rebound. Therefore I use micro movements.

I open it part way when the flames have stopped and the splits are coaling. I also open my primary air a bit at this point. Before I open the door I open the damper all the way.

Hope this helps.

 

[MR. GLO]

Great info...I have .12 to .14 and I can get it to around .06 on a good day... How much of a difference you see in burn times? Or reload times?

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Great info...I have .12 to .14 and I can get it to around .06 on a good day... How much of a difference you see in burn times? Or reload times?

I do not want to steal the OP's thread, so I will refer you back to the #16 post in this thread. Both times are significantly better.

 

[macgyverman]

Just riffing on the above post...smaller splits will burn hotter, while larger splits will burn longer. that's just my experience and not EPA official.

Ideally I split to slightly larger than 2x4 size...mostly that's so I can throw them 6 to 8 ft or so as we don't stack wood but pile it up to season.

when we load the fire we can sandwich the splits for longer burns or not.

Just because the furnace turns on doesn't mean the stove isn't heating either just wait for a fuel bill, you may be pleasantly surprised.

While I have a stove pipe damper I have never used it. So I don't recommend one be installed to use as you would use a damper in a pre EPA stove. I put one it as a chimney fire safety because I was old school and always had one.

Thanks for the tips for the wood size. Some splits are considerably bigger, but I suspect either my meter is wrong or some pieces are way wetter than others. This morning I could distinctly hear steam escaping from a log.

Regarding the furnace, I monitor the runtime of the burner. It's certainly running quite a few hours less a day, but it is still coming on for an extended period of time. I recall being at a friend's place, in a similar climate, and we could get his house up to 32C with the wood stove. Even on a warm day like yesterday (3C), I couldn't break 23C.

I think I might just install a damper to see if I can tweak things. You also make a good point about having it for safety reasons.

 

[macgyverman]

I do not want to steal the OP's thread, so I will refer you back to the #16 post in this thread. Both times are significantly better.

Hijack away! You're teaching me a lot of stuff!

Did you install the damper yourself? I'm usually handy, but for insurance purposes, I had the stove installed. I'm not worried about installing the damper, more concerned about getting one that will fit on double wall chimney pipe. Apparently getting the shaft through is very frustrating.

 

[bigealta]

Yeah steam coming from the wood is No good. No heat from that fire. Wet wood is so often the problem with many burning issues, about 90% or more of the posts here, i would guestimate, have wet (not seasoned well enough) wood as the problem.

 

[macgyverman]

Yeah steam coming from the wood is No good. No heat from that fire. Wet wood is so often the problem with many burning issues, about 90% or more of the posts here, i would guestimate, have wet (not seasoned well enough) wood as the problem.

Just weird that my meter is reading 19%. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible either.

I wish I had some super dry wood to try out. It still feels like something is up.

I'm going through a fair bit of humid wood and I feel a significant cold air draft coming down the stairs towards it. I wonder if it's sucking too much air up. A not insignificant investment to get a gauge to measure draft and even more money to install a damper. (Pricing everything out at about 250$ right now)

 

[bigealta]

I trust your seeing steam way way way over what that meter may be telling you. Steam doesn't lie.
Steam from wood = No or little heat.
Forget about everything else till your wood lights fast and burns like an inferno. Dry wood will do that.

 

[jmb6420]

Hijack away! You're teaching me a lot of stuff!

Did you install the damper yourself? I'm usually handy, but for insurance purposes, I had the stove installed. I'm not worried about installing the damper, more concerned about getting one that will fit on double wall chimney pipe. Apparently getting the shaft through is very frustrating.

Check out a damper made for your stove pipe. There are dampers made specifically for double wall pipe that are installed inline. Sick as duravent makes for their pipe

Simpson Dura-Vent 6DVL-ADWD Duravent Double-Wall Air-Insulated Damper Section as Stove Adapter, 6, Black Amazon product ASIN B003JV7X02

 

[kborndale]

Just weird that my meter is reading 19%. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible either.

I wish I had some super dry wood to try out. It still feels like something is up.

I'm going through a fair bit of humid wood and I feel a significant cold air draft coming down the stairs towards it. I wonder if it's sucking too much air up. A not insignificant investment to get a gauge to measure draft and even more money to install a damper. (Pricing everything out at about 250$ right now)

Get a bundle or two of supermarket wood. That stuff is usually very dry.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Hijack away! You're teaching me a lot of stuff!

Did you install the damper yourself? I'm usually handy, but for insurance purposes, I had the stove installed. I'm not worried about installing the damper, more concerned about getting one that will fit on double wall chimney pipe. Apparently getting the shaft through is very frustrating.

Yes, I installed myself. I have Selkirk stove pipe and chimney pipe. The damper kit I bought and installed inline in my stove pipe is this:

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/venting/black-stove-pipe/selkirk-black-stove-damper-kit/dsp6dk-1/p-1444453719719-c-19451.htm?tid=-9187429916053993146&ipos=7

I have a 24" solid double wall stove pipe; then the damper kit; then a telescoping section of double wall stove pipe.


The damper plate I bought and installed is this:

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/fireplaces-stoves/fireplace-wood-stove-tools-accessories/wood-stove-accessories/vogelzang-6-cast-iron-damper/d-6/p-1444445447200-c-6881.htm?tid=-6967775353844940661&ipos=10

Here is a pic of the tag from the damper plate. This plate is the exact same plate that is in the Selkirk Damper Kit. I installed this in the 24" section of double wall stove pipe. I drilled a hole through the two layers on one side of the pipe. I think I went one drill size larger than the rod of the damper. Then I drilled a hole through the double wall stove pipe exactly opposite of the first hole. Disassemble the rod from the plate. It takes a bit of fanangling, but reassemble the rod through one side of the pipe; then through the plate; then through the other side of the pipe. I suggest that you cut about one loop of the spring off the rod spring. Mine was too tight to turn so I had to disassemble, cut and then reassemble. You will get dirty unless your pipe is clean.

What is your stove pipe brand? Perhaps post pictures of your set up.
Before installing, think about where you want the damper to be located. Last year I had it on top of a telescoping section of stove pipe that went from stove top to ceiling. . It was right up by the pipe-to-chimney adapter. Everytime I wanted to change the damper (which is a lot), I had to step up on the hearth in order to reach it. This year I bought new pipes and installed as above. Now I just put a foot on the hearth for stability.

 

[macgyverman]

Check out a damper made for your stove pipe. There are dampers made specifically for double wall pipe that are installed inline. Sick as duravent makes for their pipe

Simpson Dura-Vent 6DVL-ADWD Duravent Double-Wall Air-Insulated Damper Section as Stove Adapter, 6, Black Amazon product ASIN B003JV7X02

Darn, I was afraid of that. I have ICC Ultra Black, the damper seems to be 150$.

 

[macgyverman]

Yes, I installed myself. I have Selkirk stove pipe and chimney pipe. The damper kit I bought and installed inline in my stove pipe is this:

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/venting/black-stove-pipe/selkirk-black-stove-damper-kit/dsp6dk-1/p-1444453719719-c-19451.htm?tid=-9187429916053993146&ipos=7

I have a 24" solid double wall stove pipe; then the damper kit; then a telescoping section of double wall stove pipe.

Thanks for the super detailed instructions! I'm just not sure I understand. Did you install a damper kit or just a damper? I've seen some vids of people putting holes through their pipes for the damper. It's apparently a lot harder to get the rod through on a double wall section. However, it would be a lot cheaper if I can make it work.

Here is a photo of my setup.

There is a flue gas thermometer 16" from the stove top. Is it ok to install the damper above it? I would have assumed you'd want the temperature after the damper.

The chimney itself is ICC Ultra Black. ICC sells a damper kit, but it's 150$ and I'm not even sure where I'd install it. I wasn't there during the install, so I'm not sure which pipe is where, but the invoice for the stove pipe shows the following parts.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Thanks for the super detailed instructions! I'm just not sure I understand. Did you install a damper kit or just a damper? I've seen some vids of people putting holes through their pipes for the damper. It's apparently a lot harder to get the rod through on a double wall section. However, it would be a lot cheaper if I can make it work.

Here is a photo of my setup.

View attachment 291978

There is a flue gas thermometer 16" from the stove top. Is it ok to install the damper above it? I would have assumed you'd want the temperature after the damper.

The chimney itself is ICC Ultra Black. ICC sells a damper kit, but it's 150$ and I'm not even sure where I'd install it. I wasn't there during the install, so I'm not sure which pipe is where, but the invoice for the stove pipe shows the following parts.
View attachment 291979

I installed both; The kit and damper plate. In the pic you can see the location of my manometer copper tube; my thermocoupler flue temp probe; my damper kit and my damper plate. I think the damper plate is also referred to as a key damper. Like I said it takes a bit of fanangling to get the rod through one side of the double wall stove pipe; then through the plate; then through the other side of stove pipe. But it is not too bad. Takes some twisting and pushing at different angles. $150 vs $6 is an easy decision for me. I would place it above your temp probe. The kit won't fit anywhere without a lot of work.

 

[macgyverman]

I installed both; The kit and damper plate. In the pic you can see the location of my manometer copper tube; my thermocoupler flue temp probe; my damper kit and my damper plate. I think the damper plate is also referred to as a key damper. Like I said it takes a bit of fanangling to get the rod through one side of the double wall stove pipe; then through the plate; then through the other side of stove pipe. But it is not too bad. Takes some twisting and pushing at different angles. $150 vs $6 is an easy decision for me. I would place it above your temp probe. The kit won't fit anywhere without a lot of work.

View attachment 291994

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the photos! Just wondering why you installed a damper and a kit? Don't you basically have 2 dampers now?

I did have a look for a damper kit and it seems like it would require me to replace some of the brand new chimney since the entire vertical run is a slip unit and the damper kit can only be installed below the slip unit and above a fixed length. I'm a bit weary of drilling into the chimney to install a damper, however, since this would put a hole thorough the second layer of the chimney.

I did do some more testing on the stove. By filling it completely with wood, I was able to get it up to 750F surface temp, however, at that point the chimney was at 1300F and I couldn't do anything to bring it down. Luckily, it only stayed like this for about 20 minutes. At 750F, the stove was putting out quite a bit more heat (of course)

 

[MMH]

I’d check the wood again, pull more than 3 and double check just to be sure. This just sounds way to much like a wet wood issue. Are you checking it right? (May have missed it but wood was brought up to room temp, split, and checked in the 3 locations/each end and middle, also some moisture meters need you to change the modes etc depending on species; you may get 18% but in reality on the wrong mode and once in right mode wood is 24% etc). Also, according to the manufacture (assuming I saw the right stove) they rated it up to 2100 sq ft max, and 1225x2 is 2450 so a few hundred feet more, the stove may be bit undersized for your wants. I’d also try blowing cool air down/air circulation as others mentioned.

 

[macgyverman]

Thanks for the

I’d check the wood again, pull more than 3 and double check just to be sure. This just sounds way to much like a wet wood issue. Are you checking it right? (May have missed it but wood was brought up to room temp, split, and checked in the 3 locations/each end and middle, also some moisture meters need you to change the modes etc depending on species; you may get 18% but in reality on the wrong mode and once in right mode wood is 24% etc). Also, according to the manufacture (assuming I saw the right stove) they rated it up to 2100 sq ft max, and 1225x2 is 2450 so a few hundred feet more, the stove may be bit undersized for your wants. I’d also try blowing cool air down/air circulation as others mentioned.

Thanks for the info. I have to admit I'm confused as to the sq footage recommendations. Obviously a 2400 sq ft single level will not heat the same as 3 levels at 800 sq ft. It's also curious that this stove is 75000 BTU and considered large by the manufacturer and only rated for up to 2100 sq ft. Quadrafire has a 62000 BTU (4300 step top) rated for up to 3000 sq ft.

The only thing I can assume is that Drolet, being based in Canada, is basing it on a Canadian climate.

I'll check moisture again, but, I was following what you've mentioned : letting the wood warm up, splitting it fresh and taking a reading. I didn't bother checking the ends, since they would be dryer than the middle. Everything I've checked has come in under 20%. I'm pretty sure I have the meter configured right, although the wood I am using is not listed on the meter itself...I took the next closest thing.

Some logs sound wet, but most light up reasonably well. As mentioned above, I was quite able to get a runaway condition when stuffing the stove completely full yesterday. I finally got the STT to break 700F, but at that point my flue was deep in the red zone. Luckily, it burnt itself down quickly.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the photos! Just wondering why you installed a damper and a kit? Don't you basically have 2 dampers now?

I did have a look for a damper kit and it seems like it would require me to replace some of the brand new chimney since the entire vertical run is a slip unit and the damper kit can only be installed below the slip unit and above a fixed length. I'm a bit weary of drilling into the chimney to install a damper, however, since this would put a hole thorough the second layer of the chimney.

I did do some more testing on the stove. By filling it completely with wood, I was able to get it up to 750F surface temp, however, at that point the chimney was at 1300F and I couldn't do anything to bring it down. Luckily, it only stayed like this for about 20 minutes. At 750F, the stove was putting out quite a bit more heat (of course)

My draft was so strong I did not feel that one damper would slow it enough. I had already bought the kit when I saw the damper plate. I bought two of them. $45 for kit; $6 for plate. I installed one in addition to the kit last fall.
I learned here to refer to the chimney pipe as that which is stainless steel and runs in the attic and outside the house. Stove pipe is black and runs from the stove to the ceiling adapter where it connects to chimney pipe.
To be clear, the dampers would go in the stove pipe not the chimney pipe.
For a temperature probe you need a hole thru the double layer stove pipe. For the manometer you need a hole through the double layer stove pipe. For the damper, the same thing, just that you need two holes to hold the damper rod.

When you hit 750 STT and 1300 in the stove pipe, did your 'air wash air' ignite unburned gasses? Were there flames 'falling' down the glass and thus the air did not keep the glass clean? Did your door glass get very dirty on the bottom half? I hit close to 1200 last year, but now I can control that with my damper.

 

[snobuilder]

My draft was so strong I did not feel that one damper would slow it enough. I had already bought the kit when I saw the damper plate. I bought two of them. $45 for kit; $6 for plate. I installed one in addition to the kit last fall.
I learned here to refer to the chimney pipe as that which is stainless steel and runs in the attic and outside the house. Stove pipe is black and runs from the stove to the ceiling adapter where it connects to chimney pipe.
To be clear, the dampers would go in the stove pipe not the chimney pipe.
For a temperature probe you need a hole thru the double layer stove pipe. For the manometer you need a hole through the double layer stove pipe. For the damper, the same thing, just that you need two holes to hold the damper rod.

When you hit 750 STT and 1300 in the stove pipe, did your 'air wash air' ignite unburned gasses? Were there flames 'falling' down the glass and thus the air did not keep the glass clean? Did your door glass get very dirty on the bottom half? I hit close to 1200 last year, but now I can control that with my damper.

1200 STT?... that is scary hot in any home no matter WHO professionally set it up, but "efficient" by today's standards I suppose .