new Vapor Fire 100 with very poor heat

[brenndatomu]

Researching all this stuff forces you to become a more educated consumer too, even if you don't end up diy'ing everything, it makes it easier to know when a contractor is feeding you a line of bull. And that's always a good thing!

 

[gary38532]

Just thinking out loud here want to here what people think of it... What if I turn the crawl space into a conditioned space. Bought the hot water kit for the vf100 and put a radiant floor in my living room. Not sure if it is even possible just a idea is all.

 

[brenndatomu]

The water coil won't make enough heat to feed a radiant floor...plus it steals a bit of heat from making hot air...but making the crawlspace into conditioned space may not be a bad idea...

 

[gary38532]

The water coil won't make enough heat to feed a radiant floor...plus it steals a bit of heat from making hot air...but making the crawlspace into conditioned space may not be a bad idea...

Oh ok

 

[brenndatomu]

Just a wild hail Mary pass here...there isn't a duct that is blowing into an "unheated" space, like the garage, attic, crawlspace, anything like that, is there?

 

[gary38532]

Just a wild hail Mary pass here...there isn't a duct that is blowing into an "unheated" space, like the garage, attic, crawlspace, anything like that, is there?

No theres ducts that go through unheated spaces but they are insulated. I never try to heat the garage it's hard to heat the house let alone the garage too. It never gets below freezing in the garage anyway good enough for the car if you ask me. When I do use it there's a little electric blower that makes it so you can do the work on the car without gloves or a hat. I do know that the addition requires the most heat. From experience it takes double what the main house requires in the duct. As in a 4in opening in the duct work heats the run that goes to the main house. A 8in to the addition to heat it to the same temp. That's how it was ran with the clayton at least. The VF100 mixes better and they are both wide opened now. The damper in the duct work was added when the clayton was over heating the main house and under heating the addition.

 

[brenndatomu]

I bet... Nah I know that window leaks lol

One thing I did to add a bit of efficiency to the basement windows in the finished part of the basement was to install a piece of plexiglass in the window well...I just cut a piece of plexi that was about 3/8" smaller than the ID of the finished window well (want it to fit kinda snug) wrapped it with foam pipe wrap around the edge and shoved it back into the opening a bit. Seems like it helped some...floor doesn't feel as cold, and don't notice the slight draft in the area when it its windy out now...and there was double pane windows there before too...but I'm not sure how well they are installed, as far as the air sealing...

 

[TCaldwell]

I’m no furnace person but a max rated net output of 47kbtu/hr based the heat loss of the house during mild weather, and not keeping up is obviously depressing.
In my house foaming the rim joists and r10 panels on the basement walls made a large difference. I’d bet tightening the house might get you there but will take some time if your doing this yourself.
Just a wild thought, you mentioned a stove to get you through while you are insulating but the cost of the flue being prohibitive. Also the wood stove would provide uneven heat output not being consistent enough to determine what your actual deficit is while running the kuma to get you over the hump.
Could you buy a pellet stove/ direct vent out of a basement window for now, being a metered fuel and able to control the output as you make improvements. Hopefully as you insulate you could keep reducing its output, seeing at what point if possible you wouldn’t need it anymore, then Craigslist it? It would allow you to have a warm house while you work on the improvements, buy some breathing room?

 

[brenndatomu]

As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...

 

[gary38532]

As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...

I'm willing to try anything at this point so all ideas are good ideas

 

[SpaceBus]

I’m no furnace person but a max rated net output of 47kbtu/hr based the heat loss of the house during mild weather, and not keeping up is obviously depressing.
In my house foaming the rim joists and r10 panels on the basement walls made a large difference. I’d bet tightening the house might get you there but will take some time if your doing this yourself.
Just a wild thought, you mentioned a stove to get you through while you are insulating but the cost of the flue being prohibitive. Also the wood stove would provide uneven heat output not being consistent enough to determine what your actual deficit is while running the kuma to get you over the hump.
Could you buy a pellet stove/ direct vent out of a basement window for now, being a metered fuel and able to control the output as you make improvements. Hopefully as you insulate you could keep reducing its output, seeing at what point if possible you wouldn’t need it anymore, then Craigslist it? It would allow you to have a warm house while you work on the improvements, buy some breathing room?

If coal weren't so hard on most liners I would even suggest a small coal stove to supplement.

 

[SpaceBus]

As my boss likes to say...just thinking out loud here, so hear me out. And I know that there are a few different well versed boiler guys reading this, feel free to jump in then guys.
I've never tried it, so I may be all wet here, but I wonder what would happen if you ran a duct from the supply plenum to the blower intake to try to keep the return air temp up...kinda like the mixing valve, or return protection valve (correct name?) that the boiler guys use to keep the water coming back to the boiler from being too cold. Does that make any sense at all? Hmm...

I was thinking about something like this myself, but it sounds like a turbocharger blowing exhaust from the turbine into the compressor, which of course won't work.

 

[brenndatomu]

Interesting...

Foundation heat loss and insulation.

Been insulating and air sealing using my smarthphone FLIR to easily find all areas of heat loss. This flir shot of my foundation wall outside shows how much heat loss uninsulated exposed concrete foundations have. It was quite staggering and all that orange/white is some serious heat flowing...

www.hearth.com

 

[gary38532]

Interesting...

Foundation heat loss and insulation.

Been insulating and air sealing using my smarthphone FLIR to easily find all areas of heat loss. This flir shot of my foundation wall outside shows how much heat loss uninsulated exposed concrete foundations have. It was quite staggering and all that orange/white is some serious heat flowing...

www.hearth.com

I still don't know if the bottom half of my house has insulation or not... considering they did not bother sealing any rim joists I highly doubt it. Im waiting for a cold night to check inside with the IR... Pulling return air from up high seems like it helped it was almost 75 in the house today when the temp hit 40

 

[brenndatomu]

I'm not sure that checking on a cold night from the inside will show you anything...if its cold outside its going to show cold above ground, and shortly after going below ground level it will show the temp in the 50's...because that is the ground temp a few feet below the surface...doesn't vary a ton summer to winter, except in the first few feet...and even then it changes slowly over weeks...but only after the air temps really start to average up or down a good bit.
Here in NEO, our frost line is ~36"...in other words, anything buried that needs to not freeze, needs to go 36" or deeper. I personally don't remember the last time the frost was much below 2'...and that is even with the 2 winters in a row we had a few years back that we had the "polar vortex" thing going on...had lots of water main repairs at work those 2 winters, so we got to dig down through the frost line way more than anybody cared too!

Anyways...looking at an IR pic from the inside I think will look similar, no matter if there is insulation on the outside or not...or at least will not show anything conclusive.

 

[gary38532]

Anyways...looking at an IR pic from the inside I think will look similar, no matter if there is insulation on the outside or not...or at least will not show anything conclusive.

yes I just tired it... all looks the same so no it wont work... either way I'm starting the rim joist tomorrow I got 2 inch foam board. I might put some fiberglass in after too just for extra I got lots of it just siting in my garage anyway.

 

[brenndatomu]

So you said you have no return ducts, correct?
After studying your pics, it looks like the air has to come through the unfinished part of the basement before it gets to the room where the furnace is? (comes from the left when you are loading the furnace?)
If this is correct, I bet its the unfinished part of the basement that is really sucking up the heat...and I'm wondering if there is a way that you could return directly into the "furnace room"? Floor vent cut into the ceiling? (with damper door and fusible link to meet fire code) Or a short return duct run from multiple return vents from above the furnace room? Or from the other way, to the right? Just throwing out ideas here...

My sister has a long ranch style and the wood furnace supply vents are at one end (close to the furnace) and then the basement stairwell is open at the other end of the house...it works pretty well to heat the whole house...at least until it gets real cold, then they fire up the fireplace insert stove in the family room too (which is the last room on the opposite end, and just beyond that open basement stairwell)

 

[gary38532]

So you said you have no return ducts, correct?
After studying your pics, it looks like the air has to come through the unfinished part of the basement before it gets to the room where the furnace is? (comes from the left when you are loading the furnace?)
If this is correct, I bet its the unfinished part of the basement that is really sucking up the heat...and I'm wondering if there is a way that you could return directly into the "furnace room"? Floor vent cut into the ceiling? (with damper door and fusible link to meet fire code) Or a short return duct run from multiple return vents from above the furnace room? Or from the other way, to the right? Just throwing out ideas here...

My sister has a long ranch style and the wood furnace supply vents are at one end (close to the furnace) and then the basement stairwell is open at the other end of the house...it works pretty well to heat the whole house...at least until it gets real cold, then they fire up the fireplace insert stove in the family room too (which is the last room, and just beyond that open basement stairwell)

yes no returns and the stair well is in the middle... none of the basement is insulated though. That includes the finished part. What you see is just drywall nothing is behind it.

 

[gary38532]

This is directly above the VF100.... It also has the open stairwell to get air back from... None of this is my work by the way... I bought the house like this.

 

[maple1]

View attachment 254213
This is directly above the VF100.... It also has the open stairwell to get air back from... None of this is my work by the way... I bought the house like this.

I'm not a furnace guy - but that has to be one of the oddest looking register setups I've ever seen. Got me wondering what else you have going on there that has you behind lots of 8 balls...

 

[Gbawol42]

I'm not a furnace guy - but that has to be one of the oddest looking register setups I've ever seen. Got me wondering what else you have going on there that has you behind lots of 8 balls...

Yup not a hvac guy as well, but I always thought your returns should be on the opposite side of the room as your supply. Kinda as separated as you can get. I feel your supply would almost blow right into the return the way it is set up.

 

[brenndatomu]

Surely not going to spread the heat around very well...looks to me like using the stairwell as the return is the better plan...

 

[maple1]

I was going to get one and everyone told me not too... I missed the rebate on the stove now so now it would be like 6500

Not getting any easier to keep track of all these pages, and not sure it was mentioned before or if it was, what was said - but have you considered a mini-split heat pump? Also not sure exactly how your winter climate is, outdoor temperature-wise. But thinking you should be able to get a very good cold climate setup installed for half that amount. And get a/c & dehumidifying for the summer months to boot.

 

[gary38532]

Surely not going to spread the heat around very well...looks to me like using the stairwell as the return is the better plan...

I always have the two returns there I just keep closed

 

[maple1]

It's 68 in the house today so it's kind of keeping up today I guess. I got 4 more degrees at the register today with the cardboard.

Excuse the multi posts. Catching up a bit after the couple holiday days. This thread is getting into 'epic' territory.

Did you do anything about that window?

I think I would simply cut a piece of foam board to fit snug in the opening up against the window, and tape around the edges with lots of painters tape to air seal around the edges. Quick & easy, and can be easily un-done after winter is over. Well, I would do that for all those windows you might have, if there are more, but that one is in a bad spot. I think your fancy (lol) return intake might be intercepting cold outside air that might be leaking in the window (I have windows like that in my basement, they're pretty darn leaky) and sucking it in before it hits the basement floor.

I think also maybe your combustion air inlet might be intercepting some of your warmer return air before it gets to your return inlet. Not sure what can be done about that though, quick & easy, without 'real' return air ducting, aside from what you've been doing so far.