Neighbors, Township, Meeting

[kjklosek]

I agree with Lees Wood Co.

In this litigious society by just showing up to such a meeting you are giving your neighbor a sense of your culpability in the matter.

Eventhough you have a legal installation, by giving acceptence to this meeting, you are in a sense admitting to causing your neighbor some discomfort through your wood burning. Basically you are admitting your own guilt to polluting the neighborhood. Regardless of how crappy his house is insulated or how little smoke gets in, you will not be able to appease him with how efficient your stove is.

I would not bring in any evidence at all.

All the neighbor has to do is look up the county/city records to see that there is no violation having to do with your wood burning appliance.

I wouldn't go.

Or, I would send my wife. She is 5'2" and about 105 lbs soaking wet, but "don't take no s#!t from nobody".

She's from Tennessee, you know, "wild as a mink but sweet as soda pop" and all that.

J.P.

 

[Jimbob]

It might help you to print a bunch of these off and hand them out @ the meeting.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/why/brochure.pdf)

 

[Hogwildz]

Ah, a woman with a low cut top, and some cleavage showing, always gets away with more than a guy.

 

[Chad S.]

Well

The psycho smoke hating hypochondriac neighbors have successfully bugged the township
(and wasted an incredible amount of time and resources of the township inspectors / supervisors, police, and fire departments)

That I've been asked to go to a "mediation meeting".

It will be THEM, me, the township supervisor, and some representative from the state.

Tomorrow after work.

Any advice from anyone here who's been through this type of thing before?

I've printed out some EPA information showing the great emission numbers of the Summit insert, and I'm looking for some information comparing the new stoves to the old typical smoke dragon output - best I can tell the new ones put out 10% or less smoke than the old ones.

Here's my agenda:

1. the problem is not with our stove or chimney - it's with THEIR HOUSE --
(why is outside air getting inside in sufficient quantities that they would notice?)

2. my stove is one of the best on the market for emissions, it has been inspected, passed, I am breaking no laws regulations or ordinances.

3. I VOLUNTARILY upgraded from an older "smoke dragon" to a new stove at my own expense to help eleviate this issue
(and to save some work by hopefully burning less wood)

4. at what point do their complaints become harrassment?


any suggestions????

Do you get complaints about grilling food too? WTF???? You did your part by installing a low emissions unit, I wouldn't even go. Or at the very least say the most conveinient time for you is 10:00pm sun night

 

[RedRanger]

It might help you to print a bunch of these off and hand them out @ the meeting.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/why/brochure.pdf)

Hey Jimbob: now ya got me wondering what this neighbour does for a living? Maybe works for the gas, or elec, or oil company?

My own personal opinion is I would have said see you in court. No mediation, because that is somewhat yeilding to the towncouncil considering an outright ban on wood-burning appliances. It`s a little bit late now, but this young man should have just stood his ground. He might just be too nice a guy to win this battle. Ya have to face reallities in life, some neighbours can just be real "pricks".. Man, we are so lucky, been here 20 years and all I can say is I love em all!!

The older guy next door showed me last year how to really get those branches and crap really burning outdoors, use your blower to fan the flames, and pour on the diesel. :cheese: Hey, it works!!

 

[TheFlame]

If it is optional, don't go to the meeting. Know your rights and the legalities in your municipality as they apply to your installation, and if you are 100% sure you are legal, then don't go.

I say this because there is no positive gain for you that can come from this. Your neighbor will most likely try most anything to get some concession out of you to stop burning, alter your burning habits, or alter your installation in some way. There are no positives for you. Even simple questions like "do you agree that when you are reloading the stove smokes quite a bit?" may come up and how will you answer? There is no answer that will help your case, it will only strengthen theirs.

I suggest you do not go, and instead state in a certified letter to the appropriate parties that your installation is legal as per the local laws, and include appropriate proof of it. The letter should state clearly that unless you are being cited by a legal authority for breaking a law or non-compliance that you will consider any additional correspondence from a non-legal entity on the matter to be harassment. Do not deal with the neighbor directly, no good will come of it.

I am not a lawyer, just somebody who has spent plenty of time in contract negotiations, and make no mistake, that is what is going to be tried at your "mediation" meeting.

 

[GlenNY]

I recommend adding a section of pipe on your chimney. This can change the pattern of smoke flow. It can also be used as a quick resolution during your mediation. I have seen 2-3 feet of pipe change things considerably. Also note that I usually only see heavy smoke during the first few minutes of starting a fire or loading new wood, after that there is relatively little, That is why they are known as clean burn efficient stoves. I would also argue that it is your right, particularly with the price of oil today, to use alternative methods of heating your home. Good luck.

 

[76ER]

burn car tires for a day..your neighbour will beg you to use your woodstove...

 

[JustWood]

If it is optional, don't go to the meeting. Know your rights and the legalities in your municipality as they apply to your installation, and if you are 100% sure you are legal, then don't go.

I say this because there is no positive gain for you that can come from this. Your neighbor will most likely try most anything to get some concession out of you to stop burning, alter your burning habits, or alter your installation in some way. There are no positives for you. Even simple questions like "do you agree that when you are reloading the stove smokes quite a bit?" may come up and how will you answer? There is no answer that will help your case, it will only strengthen theirs.

I suggest you do not go, and instead state in a certified letter to the appropriate parties that your installation is legal as per the local laws, and include appropriate proof of it. The letter should state clearly that unless you are being cited by a legal authority for breaking a law or non-compliance that you will consider any additional correspondence from a non-legal entity on the matter to be harassment. Do not deal with the neighbor directly, no good will come of it.

I am not a lawyer, just somebody who has spent plenty of time in contract negotiations, and make no mistake, that is what is going to be tried at your "mediation" meeting.

EXACTLY!

 

[tradergordo]

It might help you to print a bunch of these off and hand them out @ the meeting.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/why/brochure.pdf)

Nice brochure. Here's a relevant quote from it:
"Burn clean. Properly seasoned firewood provides more heat
and less smoke. No wood fire should smoke, not even a
campfire. In fact, a lot of smoke coming from a chimney is
embarrassing proof of the operator's lack of awareness or
experience. Learn how to burn without smoke… you can do it."

 

[steam man]

Not showing up at the meeting may make you look uncooperative. If you hold the upper hand (as you do right now) you are in the best positon. My experience in this positon is to go on the offensive. Think about the following:

Demand at the beginning of the meeting that the harassment (signs on cars, complaints to officials?) stops now before any talk or you walk.
Make him look like he's a complainer-are any of your other neighbors complaining? If not he's probably the AH.
Tell him to get an air infiltration test done. It would help him save fuel and reduce the "smell" he claims bothers him, not only from you but the other smoke dragons.
Would an commercial grade air cleaner inside his house possibly help? Like the ones used in smokey bars.
If raising the height of your chimney would help-tell him he has to pay for it.
If he wants you to stop wood burning-he can pay the full difference in price (based on Number of gallons of oil) for what it would cost you as long as you don't use the stove. You can store a big pile of wood for a backup. You know he won't go for this.
I would consider having the meeting recorded in case this leads to further possible legal trouble. Just make sure you maintain the high road. Your legal in all aspects as of now-you don't need to lose your cool. Don't do it. At the very least have an impartial witness there.
If he hasn't gone to a lawyer yet to file a nuisance suit against you it could still happen. Just because your legal doesn't mean anyone can't file a suit. The threat of countersuit is always there. For both parties this would be the most expensive way out and no one wins. Any oil savings are out the window for you. I wouldn't want to smell anyones smoke constantly. EPA numbers don't guarantee emissions due to all the variables. If he hires a lawyer who gets a 'biased' emissions test done on his property and it shows a problem-then you may have a problem. It's a little extreme (and costly) but he sounds like the AH pitbull who won't stop.
What if he puts a video up and records your stack over time and it shows smoke on numerous occassions? I am subjected to a small window where my boilers are monitored by video. Very little tolerance is given for smoke spewing out the stack.
At the very least we don't want woodburners to look uncooperative which gets local officials in that push more regulation for all of us. How many times has a person got on a board just to push a particular agenda?

Just a few thoughts. It can be tough dealing with someone you have to live next to.

 

[mikeathens]

Neighbors suck. My nearest one is about 1/2 mile. Too close if you ask me. She's a real gem, too. Talk about a-holes.

Hope everythin gturns out OK. Maybe time to find 100 acres and think about moving so you don't have to deal with this sort of BS.

 

[milner351]

Well -
Since I have to deal with this township supervisor every time I get a permit (and I have a lot of construction planned for this spring)

I feel strongly it's in my best interest to go to the meeting and try my best to be cooperative - trust me - it's a good thing my wife can't attend - she'd scream and yell at them and make them wish they'd never been born - working for the railroad makes her a great negotiator!


I have pictures of the cars with signs, I have data from the EPA, Pacific Energy, and receipts from the installation of the liner.

I don't know if they are aware that we put in a new stove - but you'd think they'd notice how much less smoke there is compared to last year!

THE WORST PART IS - THIS IS ALL ABOUT WHEN THE WIND SHIFTS AND COMES OUT OF THE EAST

I WISH I COULD FIND WEATHER SERVICE DATA TO SHOW HOW SMALL A PERCENTAGE OF THE TIME THAT IS PER YEAR!


my chimney is already two stories high, and on the opposite side of our house from them - our lot is 85ft wide, then there is an open lot some 60ft wide, then their 2 story house.....

The township has many pictures of the chimney showing no smoke at all, and I'm sure the neighbor has some pictures of it smoking right after a reload..... I can explain that... and the township photos (taken at random times through out the day) will back me up.

 

[tradergordo]

Is it even remotely possible that the smoke they are complaining about isn't actually coming from you?
Based on your comments, it sounds like you are burning clean, but how long after splitting was your wood drying before you burned it and is it stored under cover?

If they do that car parked in front of your house with a sign thing again maybe you should make your own creative sign, haha. Whatever you do, don't start breaking any laws, that's probably what he wants from you.

Let us know what happens at the meeting. I wish you could video tape it and share it with us, sounds like it will be very entertaining.

 

[SPED]

Man what a pain, I can't believe you have to go through this, that royally sux.

That being said, you've gotten some great advice here so far. If it were me I'd walk in with a big ol posterboard that has you on one side them on the other. Label it "steps taken to alleviate problem" On your side put all the money you spent and the inspections you had. On their side put pictures of their cars with signs. Seems like a fair representation of the facts... ;-) Or tell them go spend what i spent then we'll have a mediation.

Good luck, and like others have said much more eloquently than I can, KEEP YOUR COOL Sometimes perception counts for more than it should, so keep a calm tone and keep presenting facts. Let them hang themselves by coming off as nutjobs.

 

[milner351]

I'm really glad I posted this - and thankyou for all the replies - I truly appreciate it.

I am one of at least 6 neighbors - all to their East which burn wood, and at least one of them is also directly in line with the psycho's house - and he has a smoke dragon -- but doesn't burn 24/7.

All you have to do is drive through our small sub to see the stacks of wood - ours is hidden behind a privacy fence and a spruce tree - but some folks have it stacked right next to their driveway.


I can't gaurantee that 100% of my wood is 100% seasoned - but I can tell you that our summit only smokes for 10-20 minutes after loading - depending on how cool the stove had gotten before the load.

I wish I could find some wind data - so far no luck -- again -- all of their complaints stem from the rare occasion when the wind is from the East!

 

[MishMouse]

I am one of at least 6 neighbors - all to their East which burn wood, and at least one of them is also directly in line with the psycho's house - and he has a smoke dragon -- but doesn't burn 24/7.

The smoke that your neighbor may be talking about might be coming from the OWB and not from your stove.

Is there a way that you can get the other neighbors that burn to attend your meeting?
Maybe even a non-burner that is next door who isn't bothered by our burning would seal the nail in the coffin.

If they are attacking you they are most likely attacking the other wood burners in your area.
If they beat you the others are would lose there right to burn also.
Even if you win and can convince them that you are not to blame, they will still go after the other wood burners in the area.

 

[milner351]

unfortunately it's too late to ask the other wood burners in the area to attend.

obviously it would be impossible for them to prove that the smoke that bothers them is from our chimney.

if tonight does not end this - I will get the other wood burners in the 'hood involved.

The complainers have lived there since about 1980 - we are not the only neighbors they have tried to bully - many folks in the 'hood don't think highly of them.

 

[granpajohn]

I wish I could find some wind data - so far no luck -- again -- all of their complaints stem from the rare occasion when the wind is from the East!

What you want is a "Wind Rose" for your location. I haven't made one since I was in engineering school and at the NWS, but they are used in the siting of airports (for one thing). I googled and found this site from Calvin College (sounds like an old US President, eh?) showing some for Lake Michigan. (broken link removed to http://www.calvin.edu/academic/geology/coastaldunes/environment/wind.htm)
I don't know exactly where you are in MI, but with a little more time you might find what you want. Also, you could email the local NWS office and ask how you can obtain or make a wind rose for your area. Those fellows have inquiring minds and will usually reply.
Hope that helps a little.

edit: WooHoo, I think I might have found something: (broken link removed) Try there. It looks like it's used for ozone viloation studies.

 

[billb3]

predominant or prevailing wind direction for Detroit area is westerly.
can be found by googling for those terms or "lake effect snow".

 

[milner351]

Thanks Granpajohn!

I printed out the 'roses' but I'm not sure how much they apply, as they are for the April - September from '88 - '92
but it still shows prevailing winds for the area THANKS!

According to my calculations from those rosets - (one for ozone violation days, one for other days)

the winds are only out of the east directly (with in ~30 degrees of directly east) 8-12% of the time!

 

[Mandoo]

NOAA archives data from land based and marine observation buoys.

I did not spend a lot of time on this so you may want to see if there is anything closer than the Toledo light house database. Wind direction is listed in degrees.

Hope this helps following is 365 days 2007

Noaa data

Print this and take it
Kids compass

 

[Mandoo]

Sorry this is how I got there

Data

 

[JustWood]

We will be waiting patiently at the hearth for a play by play rundown of what went on at the meeting. Man I wish I could be a mouse in the corner.

unfortunately it's too late to ask the other wood burners in the area to attend.

obviously it would be impossible for them to prove that the smoke that bothers them is from our chimney.

if tonight does not end this - I will get the other wood burners in the 'hood involved.

The complainers have lived there since about 1980 - we are not the only neighbors they have tried to bully - many folks in the 'hood don't think highly of them.

 

[Henz]

WELL, WHAT HAPPENED!