Need help with Encore 2040-C

[Mebenal]

Hello,

In November, we purchased a house with a 2015ish Vermont Castings 2040 cat-c . I've never ran a wood stove before, so I had/have a lot of learning to do.
I need some advice from the many of you who have been running this stove.

The setup-
Double wall 6in pipe, 18.5feet from top of stove to cap at the top. Straight up.

The wood-
Some quite dry lodgepole pine. (9-11% moisture, measured on fresh split after sitting indoors for 24hours, measured in 3 spots going with the grain.
Also have some fir with much higher moisture, around 22%
(both types of wood, unsure of the seasoned time, as we've just moved into the house)

The stove did not come with a cat probe (or it was removed at some point). I have just today installed a k-type probe with the Auber AT100 digital meter into the rear of the stove to read CAT temps.
I have an internal flue temp probe (condor) not the cheapest, not the most expensive.
And a magnetic stove top thermometer (placed behind the grill top)

I leave the ashpan full.

I try to always have a good bed of coals.

I have done the dollar bill test where I can reach, and have done an incense test at all other joints I can see.

The primary air flap shuts completely, and holding incense near it, the incense does not go into the stove at all. (seems sealed well)

Up until today, I have had only nightmares running this stove, and a max burn time of maybe 4.5 hours if im lucky.

The CAT temp probe and Auber meter have finally arrived today after a month, so I am hoping I can operate this stove properly with knowing all my temps.
(and with all the knowledge on this forum, and having read countless pages)

Please school me on the following-

cold start up
1. get the stove up to 450 stove top temp with air 100% open and bypass open
2. close bypass, watch cat temp get to 800
3. dial back primary air to 50%
4. watch for cat temps to stay 1000-1200
5. adjust primary air as needed to keep cat temps 1000-1200
6. hope for longer burn time?

Thank you all in advance, I have learned a lot already from reading through the various posts.

 

[Eman85]

cold start up
1. get the stove up to 450 stove top temp with air 100% open and bypass open
2. close bypass, watch cat temp get to 800
3. dial back primary air to 50%
4. watch for cat temps to stay 1000-1200
5. adjust primary air as needed to keep cat temps 1000-1200
6. hope for longer burn time?

How did that work out?

 

[Mebenal]

How did that work out?

I haven't tried yet, I was hoping someone would critique the steps before my maiden voyage with the AT100. haha. Unless they seem "correct"?

 

[Turbo89]

I have the same stove (same year even), I was fighting these issues a few weeks ago. I documented my trouble shooting steps here (I’ll try to find / post a link).

Basically, I passed the paper / dollar bill test but used a lighter and found door gasket and griddle gasket leaks. I replaced both (Amazon, less than $30 and like 15 min work), then added 2 bolts to slow air to the cat chamber. Went from 4 hr burn on a good day to 10+ hr burns, and I haven’t really figured out how to over night this stove. I’m suspicious I need a ash door gasket too… but haven’t gotten there yet, as it runs good with a full ash pan.

Edit, here’s that thread:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/encore-2040-cat-c-burns-too-fast.205794/

 

[Mebenal]

I have the same stove (same year even), I was fighting these issues a few weeks ago. I documented my trouble shooting steps here (I’ll try to find / post a link).

Basically, I passed the paper / dollar bill test but used a lighter and found door gasket and griddle gasket leaks. I replaced both (Amazon, less than $30 and like 15 min work), then added 2 bolts to close the slow air to the cat chamber. Went from 4 hr burn on a good day to 10+ hr burns, and I haven’t really figured out how to over night this stove. I’m suspicious I need a ash door gasket too… but haven’t gotten there yet, as it runs good with a full ash pan.

Edit, here’s that thread:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/encore-2040-cat-c-burns-too-fast.205794/

thank you very much, i will go through and make any adjustments needed.

 

[Eman85]

I haven't tried yet, I was hoping someone would critique the steps before my maiden voyage with the AT100. haha. Unless they seem "correct"?

Experience is the best teacher, your plan looks good now give it a go.

 

[Mebenal]

plugged 2 of 8 air holes on back wall

Test 1-
1. Air 100%, bypass open
2. stove top reached 450
3. closed bypass, left air 100%
4. cat reached 940 very slowly (maybe 35 min)
5. I left air 100% (max cat temp about 940-950)
6. cat dropped slowly to 850, and continued to slowly drop (air still 100%)
7. 2 hours later, tried a reload with a bit more wood (about 1/2 the box) (better coal base compared to cold start)
8. bypass open, air 100%, let the wood catch fire
9. internal flue temp reached 650 (about 10 min) stove top about 500
10. closed bypass, air still 100%
11. cat reached 1000 (little bit faster this time, maybe 25 min)
12. closed air to 50%
13. cat dropped to 850ish
14. 4 hours later i was left with ashes almost cold enough to touch with my hands


Seems like the same thing as before, just now I can see the temps instead of guessing what they are. Any suggestions for test #2?

I was thinking to try and let the CAT get a bit hotter before shutting down the air. Closer to 1200.

Ive had the stove "seem" to go nuclear a few times on me over the months. One time internal flue temps reached 1200 while all air was 0%.... after this I made a steel block-off plate with magnets for the secondary air inlet. (i haven't needed to use it yet)
This episode happened when a log seemed to fall right in the back, and force the air/flames straight into the cat chamber.
I made a re-bar stand to prevent this from happening again. (not sure if its needed)

 

[Turbo89]

Have you tried the lighter test near the door/ash tray gaskets? Those temps indicate pretty good (not drenched) wood, so it seems like an air leak.


Is that first picture a block do the secondary air intake? If you’re facing fast burns with that in place, there’s a massive air leak somewhere.

Some things to check:
- Verify primary air is closing down (I posted pics in that other thread).
- check the door gaskets / ash tray pan gasket / griddle gasket with lighter (my big leak was at the door seam).
- some folks have talked about blocking 1 or 2 of the EPA holes (front bottom of the stove near the legs).

Another thing folks mentioned (I didn’t see this) is that the ash tray door sags. Folks have also mention running it with a full ash pan as offering better air control.

 

[Mebenal]

Have you tried the lighter test near the door/ash tray gaskets? Those temps indicate pretty good (not drenched) wood, so it seems like an air leak.


Is that first picture a block do the secondary air intake? If you’re facing fast burns with that in place, there’s a massive air leak somewhere.

Some things to check:
- Verify primary air is closing down (I posted pics in that other thread).
- check the door gaskets / ash tray pan gasket / griddle gasket with lighter (my big leak was at the door seam).
- some folks have talked about blocking 1 or 2 of the EPA holes (front bottom of the stove near the legs).

Another thing folks mentioned (I didn’t see this) is that the ash tray door sags. Folks have also mention running it with a full ash pan as offering better air control.

Thanks for the quick reply.

The block-off plate is for the secondary air inlet, yes. But i've never used it. I just made it after the incident where my flue temps were 1200F with all air shut. (i would use this plate as a backup measure if i needed to shut the stove down more without any options)

Yep, i've done an incense test at all joints I can access. (however, not a lighter test)
Primary inlet, fully shut (even pulling on the wire) no incense goes into the inlet (same results without pulling on the little wire)
Front doors, i had small leak in gasket, fixed, and incense no longer goes into this gap
top griddle, no incense being sucked into stove
bottom ash pan, no incense being sucked in

Its possible I am not checking for leaks correctly. The process I use-
1. stove hot and up to temp
2. light an incense stick
3. hold the incense stick very close to each gap in stove and watch for incense being sucked into the gap

 

[Turbo89]

Thanks for the quick reply.

The block-off plate is for the secondary air inlet, yes. But i've never used it. I just made it after the incident where my flue temps were 1200F with all air shut. (i would use this plate as a backup measure if i needed to shut the stove down more without any options)

Yep, i've done an incense test at all joints I can access. (however, not a lighter test)
Primary inlet, fully shut (even pulling on the wire) no incense goes into the inlet (same results without pulling on the little wire)
Front doors, i had small leak in gasket, fixed, and incense no longer goes into this gap
top griddle, no incense being sucked into stove
bottom ash pan, no incense being sucked in

Its possible I am not checking for leaks correctly. The process I use-
1. stove hot and up to temp
2. light an incense stick
3. hold the incense stick very close to each gap in stove and watch for incense being sucked into the gap

This is exactly what I was doing with the lighter (after I passed the paper test). It was very obvious, as the flame bent inwards noticeably. I was holding the flame very close to the door, I’d imagine you’d experience a very similar thing with a smoke source.

It’s probably worth re-checking for leaks, and I’d even think about running some tests with the secondary / EPA holes blocked. You should able to literally extinguish flames by turning the primary air down (my stove takes about 2-3 min to achieve this now).

 

[Mebenal]

This is exactly what I was doing with the lighter (after I passed the paper test). It was very obvious, as the flame bent inwards noticeably. I was holding the flame very close to the door, I’d imagine you’d experience a very similar thing with a smoke source.

It’s probably worth re-checking for leaks, and I’d even think about running some tests with the secondary / EPA holes blocked. You should able to literally extinguish flames by turning the primary air down (my stove takes about 2-3 min to achieve this now).

So if i only load the stove 1/2way or 3/4 way, I have quite good control of the air.
Bypass closed, air full open = lots of flames (pic 1)
bypass closed, air full closed = very very minor flames, just light dancing (pic 2) (within 1-2 min)

edit- I also re-did my incense test today, and did a much more thorough job... definitely no OBVIOUS leaks, not even close

- I will also get small backpuffing if I close the air 100% too soon. Used to come through small gap in front doors, until i fixed the seal. Now I can just see the explosion of air/fire in the entirety of the firebox.

 

[Mebenal]

So if i only load the stove 1/2way or 3/4 way, I have quite good control of the air.
Bypass closed, air full open = lots of flames (pic 1)
bypass closed, air full closed = very very minor flames, just light dancing (pic 2) (within 1-2 min)

Today for my #2 test i did the following-
Stove about 3/4 full
1. wait for stove to get to 500F air full open
2. closed bypass, left air full open
3. waited for CAT to reach 1200, closed air to 50%
4. CAT seemed to stabilize around 1150 after 20 min
5. put air to 25%
6. 3 hours later I needed to reload, otherwise I would have had to start from scratch again. (CAT dropped to about 550, stove top to 350)

I am wondering.... the previous owners told me they never ran the stove with the bypass closed (whether this is true or not, I do not know). The stove is from 2015, so the CAT is very likely original at 10 years old.

Since im getting same short burn times whether I keep the CAT at 700 range or 900 range, is it possible that the CAT is just not functioning efficiently at all?
Or maybe my fir wood is just too soft?

 

[Turbo89]

your pictures / troubleshooting have me stumped a bit. Hopefully someone else chimes in; you definitely seem to have much better air control than I had when troubleshooting.

The wood is an interesting thought, and loading techniques comes to mind a bit. My stove eats wood when it’s cold, until I get a good bed of coals going. I’ve had good luck building up a thick bed (say 3-4” of red coals), then racking them to the back and stuffing the stove with wood, tightly packed up to the bypass. I try not to have coals under the stack (so it takes a while to light). And with a good bed of coals I can turn it down within 3-5 min of adding wood.

 

[gthomas785]

I have this stove. As I was telling another poster yesterday, it can be a bit fiddly until you figure out all the little quirks of how it operates. For one thing, it always behaves differently on a cold start than when reloading. Even if the flue/stovetop/cat temps are all identical, the depth of the coal bed seems to make a big difference.

If you want a long burn, you're going to need to stuff it full and make sure all your air leaks are taken care of. When I'm cruising and primary air closed, there are no flames in the box. This is how it should be.

My setup has a relatively short chimney so my draft is in the weaker side. On a cold start, I will have to open and close the damper a few times to get the cat heated up otherwise the fire smolders. When starting from cold I can burn through 1/2 a load of wood just getting the stove and chimney up to temp.

On a reload, I spread the coals to either side leaving a channel down the middle. Then stack my wood on top of that. I always load the stove 100% full unless I'm timing for another reload soon (e.g. bedtime). Run damper open until internal flue temp is 600-800. Close bypass. When cat hits 1000 I turn primary air down by about 1/3. If the cat temps keeps rising I turn down by another 1/3 shortly after. If the cat temp drops I wait a bit for it to recover. (Note, closing the primary air will generally lead to higher cat temps, but it's a delayed effect. If you close too fast or too soon, below 750 or so, the cat may stall). Then keep turning it down gradually after that until fully closed.
Cat temps typically reach 1200-1400 at the height of the burn. I used to sweat anything over 1300 but I've learned it's normal for this stove and it will go back down.

 

[Mebenal]

thank you both for the thorough replies. I will keep trying new methods.

It is, however, very frustrating that the stove requires me to do a special song and dance every time I reload/start from fresh before it will "potentially" be ok. Too much babysitting. I want to load it and go out for a few hours without worrying.

I am always extremely jealous when I go to my neighbors place two doors down. He has a Blaze king, and this is his method-

1. sees wood getting slightly low
2. opens bypass
3. randomly tosses in 3 large chunks of wood
4. closes bypass
5. I ask him "is that all?"
6. his reply "yeah, but I'll have to do that again in 7 or 8 hours"
7. me "wtf?"

 

[Turbo89]

thank you both for the thorough replies. I will keep trying new methods.

It is, however, very frustrating that the stove requires me to do a special song and dance every time I reload/start from fresh before it will "potentially" be ok. Too much babysitting. I want to load it and go out for a few hours without worrying.

I am always extremely jealous when I go to my neighbors place two doors down. He has a Blaze king, and this is his method-

1. sees wood getting slightly low
2. opens bypass
3. randomly tosses in 3 large chunks of wood
4. closes bypass
5. I ask him "is that all?"
6. his reply "yeah, but I'll have to do that again in 7 or 8 hours"
7. me "wtf?"

Yea, I feel the same way sometime; but I have less regrets since I bought mine used as my first catalytic stove. It took me a while to get it burning 10hrs+, and it is finicky… probably not the best experience as a first catalyst stove.

In contrast I have non-EPA Jotul 602 in the house. It’s no fuss, and I can easily get a 7-8 hour burn by just stuffing it and turning it way down (of course it produce much lass heat with the small firebox)…. But it doesn’t burn near as clean as my VC.

What does your chimney look like? Maybe you have an extremely strong draft and a key damper would help? Report back if you try out attempts at pushing coals around and minimizing wood gaps will stuffing it. I’d bet you’ll see some improvement.

 

[Eman85]

Is all you are burning is Fir? Have you opened up the cat and cleaned it? If your Encore is made like mine if you clean the chimney you can end up with debris in the chambers on the sides of the cat. I made a deflector out of aluminum that goes over the bypass damper and blocks the chambers on the sides to stop debris from going in there.

 

[Mebenal]

Is all you are burning is Fir? Have you opened up the cat and cleaned it? If your Encore is made like mine if you clean the chimney you can end up with debris in the chambers on the sides of the cat. I made a deflector out of aluminum that goes over the bypass damper and blocks the chambers on the sides to stop debris from going in there.

I have very dry Pine (10-12%) and fir (18-20%). I am now mostly using the pine at cold start, as it burns much hotter and faster, and then supplementing with Fir. In the end, about 50/50 pine/fir. (If i only use the pine, that's when the stove seems to be MUCH more volatile)
I have taken the cat out about 5 times this season. Cleaned the entirety of the cat chamber. Gently vacuumed the CAT itself.
The cat has a small crack in the honeycomb in a section about the size of a dime. No chunks missing, but you can see it cracked, not quite all the way through.
The side chambers I have vacuumed the best I can, but they require a small adapter on my shopvac to get right to the bottom.

I know I sound like I keep making excuses... but I truly do want to get the stove to run efficiently, and easily. And I appreciate all the advice.

 

[Turbo89]

That crack is not an issue w/ respect to burn time. Let us know how stacking tight/racking coals work.

 

[Mebenal]

That crack is not an issue w/ respect to burn time. Let us know how stacking tight/racking coals work.

Last night I put all the coals to the back, filled the box 3/4 full. (I normally try to lay them diagonally stacked on top of each other trying to minimize the air gaps between pieces) My logs are about 15 inches, so theres always a decent air gap on each end of the logs as the stove is like 22inches wide. My Pine is in rounds, roughly 3-6inch diameters, so theres always more air gap between those. The Fir is split in 4-6inch splits, and easier to stack without any air gaps.

At about the 1hour mark, the stack has shrunk to be about 1/2way up the stove.

At the 3hour mark, she's ready for a few more logs to keep it going another 2-3 hours.


I have, in the early days, filled the box right to the brim, filling the sides with smaller pieces, etc. These occasions are hit and miss. It will either do 1 of the following-
1. Burn for 4 - 4.5 hours (best case scenario)
2. go nuclear (depending on how perfectly I re-loaded, the speed in which I turned the air down at, etc etc)

I have decided that the extra 1 hour of burn time is not worth the anxiety of wondering if I will burn the house down.

The stove is VERY consistent with burning times. Each extra piece of wood normally always equates to an extra 20-30min of burn time.

Example-
stove half full = 2 hours
stove 3/4 full = 3 hours
stove full = 4 hours max

 

[Turbo89]

I had issues with the stove running away, when I was burning wood that was too wet, which kept me from loading it to the brim; now that I fixed my air leaks and use dryer hardwood (12-15%), I haven’t seen a CAT temp north of 1350.

What does your chimney look like? You seem to have good draft control on the incoming side, i wonder if you have too strong of a draft up the flue? Is it a really tall chimney? Do you have a key damper on top so you can try to damp the exhaust flue? For reference, mine stove has approx. 15-18’ tall, straight double wall pipe.

Also, do you have access to dry hardwood (I.e. grocery store packs or other), to troubleshoot if your wood is too wet? Also can you post a pic of your tightly packed wood, I typically brick lay to eliminate gaps, but even if I don’t I get 6-8hrs with hardwood.

I can’t speak to pine /fir, I don’t have any to burn.

 

[gthomas785]

I will just add, in case I did not emphasize this enough, that I always shut the primary air to 0%. That is how you get a long burn time. If you can't do that either because your cat is crashing or it's not putting out enough heat, that points to a fuel issue. With my primary air at 0 I can still get 400-500 degree stovetop temps for about 6-8 hours and then it starts dropping.

(Edit, of course if it's super cold out I will crack it open more but I would not expect an 8 hour burn in that case.)

I do not burn much pine because my area is mostly deciduous but if I were burning softwoods I would want to shut the primary air even faster because of how quickly it takes off. Leaving the primary air open at all beyond the first half hour is sure to burn down a load of that wood in a hurry.

 

[Mebenal]

I had issues with the stove running away, when I was burning wood that was too wet, which kept my from loading it to the brim; now that I fixed my air leaks and use dryer hardwood (12-15%), I haven’t seen a CAT temp north of 1350.

What does your chimney look like? You seem to have good draft control on the incoming side, i wonder if you have too strong of a draft up the flue? Is it a really tall chimney? Do you have a key damper on top so you can try to damp the exhaust flue? For reference, mine stove has approx. 15-18’ tall, straight double wall pipe.

Also, do you have access to dry hardwood (I.e. grocery store packs or other), to troubleshoot if your wood is too wet? Also can you post a pic of your tightly packed wood, I typically brick lay to eliminate gaps, but even if I don’t I get 6-8hrs with hardwood.

I can’t speak to pine /fir, I don’t have any to burn.

Very interesting. I have almost the opposite. My Pine, measured at 9-11% moisture(on average) will cause my temps to go crazy if I fill the box and dont closely monitor my air settings. My fir, measured 17-22% (on average) with a full stove, I can leave my air 100% for the full burn and it wont make me nervous. This is why I have been mixing them half/half. the pine gives me heat, and the fir kind of balances the stove and makes it less volatile while still getting 3-4hours of burn time.

I will experiment with some other woods, but in reality, I can go up into the mountains behind me and get as much free pine and fir as I want, so I want a stove that will run on that type of wood. The hardwoods here are about 400$ a cord, (I would have to drive a few hours to get it)so kind of defeats the purpose of heating my home for cheap.

I will just add, in case I did not emphasize this enough, that I always shut the primary air to 0%. That is how you get a long burn time. If you can't do that either because your cat is crashing or it's not putting out enough heat, that points to a fuel issue. With my primary air at 0 I can still get 400-500 degree stovetop temps for about 6-8 hours and then it starts dropping.

(Edit, of course if it's super cold out I will crack it open more but I would not expect an 8 hour burn in that case.)

I do not burn much pine because my area is mostly deciduous but if I were burning softwoods I would want to shut the primary air even faster because of how quickly it takes off. Leaving the primary air open at all beyond the first half hour is sure to burn down a load of that wood in a hurry.

If I close my air 100% off immediately, within 4-5 minutes I will get backpuffing. (every single time)
If I have multiple smaller splits, and close the air 100% off too quickly (too quickly, meaning before 20 min) my cat goes nuclear. Too much offgassing, not enough air?

If I wait about 15 min, close my air to 50%, wait another 20min, close the air to 25%, and at 50min-1hour of burn time, close my air 100%= this is the ONLY way I do not get backpuffing with my air at 0%

 

[Mebenal]

I had issues with the stove running away, when I was burning wood that was too wet, which kept my from loading it to the brim; now that I fixed my air leaks and use dryer hardwood (12-15%), I haven’t seen a CAT temp north of 1350.

What does your chimney look like? You seem to have good draft control on the incoming side, i wonder if you have too strong of a draft up the flue? Is it a really tall chimney? Do you have a key damper on top so you can try to damp the exhaust flue? For reference, mine stove has approx. 15-18’ tall, straight double wall pipe.

Also, do you have access to dry hardwood (I.e. grocery store packs or other), to troubleshoot if your wood is too wet? Also can you post a pic of your tightly packed wood, I typically brick lay to eliminate gaps, but even if I don’t I get 6-8hrs with hardwood.

I can’t speak to pine /fir, I don’t have any to burn.

forgot to reply.

6inch double wall chimney, 18.5ft straight up. no key damper

 

[gthomas785]

Very interesting. I have almost the opposite. My Pine, measured at 9-11% moisture(on average) will cause my temps to go crazy if I fill the box and dont closely monitor my air settings. My fir, measured 17-22% (on average) with a full stove, I can leave my air 100% for the full burn and it wont make me nervous. This is why I have been mixing them half/half. the pine gives me heat, and the fir kind of balances the stove and makes it less volatile while still getting 3-4hours of burn time.

I will experiment with some other woods, but in reality, I can go up into the mountains behind me and get as much free pine and fir as I want, so I want a stove that will run on that type of wood. The hardwoods here are about 400$ a cord, (I would have to drive a few hours to get it)so kind of defeats the purpose of heating my home for cheap.


If I close my air 100% off immediately, within 4-5 minutes I will get backpuffing. (every single time)
If I have multiple smaller splits, and close the air 100% off too quickly (too quickly, meaning before 20 min) my cat goes nuclear. Too much offgassing, not enough air?

If I wait about 15 min, close my air to 50%, wait another 20min, close the air to 25%, and at 50min-1hour of burn time, close my air 100%= this is the ONLY way I do not get backpuffing.

Sounds like maybe your fuel is too dry